MSM finally catching on to the facts about NO

[totalcommand]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: OrByte
trollslikechicken

hehe thats good one!

When Liberals like Conjur have no argument, they turn to the politics of personal destruction. Conjur's name-calling is a good case in point.

gimme a break. personal attacks are made here by liberals and conservatives, and fascists and socialists alike here. stop complaining about it already.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
[Please show us the "pertinent aspects" and provide some actual proof like I did, instead of being blustery and lamely atttempting to dismiss it by waving your hand in the air and tossing out accusations of trolling. Don't forget to cite where it says the Posse Comitatus Act is null and void or superceded as well, then you might have something. Until then you're doing nothing but floundering.

FOR THE LAST TIME:

The military, according to the NRP, can be used to assist and provide aid. That does NOT violate Posse Comitatus no matter how much spittle you spray.

 

[totalcommand]

Conjur and TLC, your argument just shows how you can use any document and, with the right spin, can make it say what you want.

I suggest you guys move on. There were failures at all levels, but IMO the buck stops with the federal gov't.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: totalcommand
Conjur and TLC, your argument just shows how you can use any document and, with the right spin, can make it say what you want.

I suggest you guys move on. There were failures at all levels, but IMO the buck stops with the federal gov't.

I'm not spinning it whatsoever. Read the entire document, not pages 42 and 43 alone. That provides the entire picture and it's very clear the the local and state governments are the ones responsible to run the show, not the Feds. The Feds can only coordinate with and assist the local and state authorities. The only way that can change is if Blanco cedes control to the federal government, which she was asked to do and refused to do. Bush could also have wrested control from her by force, but do we REALLY even want to consider opening that can of worms? Good lord, the Bush hater club would have gone ballistic if Bush had done that.

 

[totalcommand]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: totalcommand
Conjur and TLC, your argument just shows how you can use any document and, with the right spin, can make it say what you want.

I suggest you guys move on. There were failures at all levels, but IMO the buck stops with the federal gov't.

I'm not spinning it whatsoever. Read the entire document, not pages 42 and 43 alone. That provides the entire picture and it's very clear the the local and state governments are the ones responsible to run the show, not the Feds. The Feds can only coordinate with and assist the local and state authorities. The only way that can change is if Blanco cedes control to the federal government, which she was asked to do and refused to do. Bush could also have wrested control from her by force, but do we REALLY even want to consider opening that can of worms? Good lord, the Bush hater club would have gone ballistic if Bush had done that.

spin part bolded above. I believe both of you guys.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Busithoth
My favorite result of this bogus argument is the logical follow-up: So, if there IS a terrorist attack, you better reach for the nearest bic pen and start scribbling, in triplicate, and keep the successful fax forms, because they 'may' get lost, and lord knows we're gonna sit on our hands until you've crossed your T's and dotted your I's.

Seriously, do people understand that the government has effectively said that you're on your own to defend yourself, good luck, etc?
After scaring the frak out of people by implying that an attack is only a matter of when, not if, we've seen that if they do attack, we'll have no plan, ever.

I don't say this as an exoneration of Blanco and Nagin. To armchair quarterback, they should have thought through a plan to mobilize those without transportation.
But it is just sick to ignore the fact that you're asking people whose lives and families just got blown apart to perform without emotion, without aid, without rest.

If I were as callous as you, I'd welcome a similar calamity in your neighborhood so you could rejoin the human experience.

Oh, and Trolls like Chicken: transparent and apologetic? Who's pulling from GOP talking points memos, and who's apologizing for Bush?

Well said. We pay the federal government (specifically the Pentagon + FEMA) hundreds of billions of dollars to protect us. If it is not for a disaster like this, then what the hell are we paying for? There are no doubt many failures at the state and local level, but the simple fact is they are absolutely incapable of handling a disaster of this magnitude, and no rational person would expect otherwise. Only the fed has the resources and portable infrastructure essential to responding to a catastrophe like this, and those resources were brought to bear too little, too late.

Obviously, the Bush administration is NOT solely responsible for the problems. They were too fixated on turf battles and paperwork, however, fatally delaying response. President Bush was uniquely positioned to cut through this red tape, to order an immediate all-out mobilization of federal resources. Instead, he wound down his vacation and posed for photo-ops. Bush fiddled while New Orleans drowned, and the blustering Bush apologists are in full-throttle damage control spin to divert from that tragic fact.

(And I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I've bolded above. I've posed it several times over the last few days, with no response. What, exactly, are we paying for? What are we getting for our hundreds of billions of dollars?)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but FEMA has never prevented a natural disaster, ever. The Pentagon protects us against our enemies abroad. I do believe it's the National Guard who protects *us* within our borders. Who is in charge of of the National Guard?

We pay taxes for many things Bowfinger. I certainly never believed that paying taxes was a *guarantee* against tragedy, forseeable or not.....

Sorry, that's a straw man. I never sugeested FEMA was responsible for preventing a disaster. Try again.

I realize the lefties like you believe that it's the government's responsibility to oversee every area of our lives...to coddle and take care of us...to be our mother hen......that is the liberal way, no?

Followed by an ad hom, how precious. Your tired rhetoric might be appropriate for a discussion about nationalized health care, for example. To try to raise it relative to a cataclysm like this is pure partisan BS. Just what exactly do you think the role of government is if not to provide for public safety in the face of an extraordinary threat like this? Here, let me use the couterpart of your "logic". I realize the Bushies like you believe that it's the government's responsibility to do everything possible to further enrich the wealthy ... to dole out corporate welfare and taxpayer-funded windfalls to BushCo cronies and patrons ... that is the Republican way, no?

Let me ask you monday morning quarterbacks an honest question:

Do you believe that Bush should just *cut the red tape* every time he believes it to be necessary, regardless of the law or consequences? Only when danger threatens? Perception of "danger" is mighty subjective. I'd rather not begin down that slippery slope, and neither would you if you were honest, and I generally support the man!

Get real. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. Bureaucrats are slaves to the rule book. Being a leader means knowing when to break the rules, and being willing to accept the consequences for your decisions. One of my greatest gripes about Bush is he fails on both counts. He has proven time and again he is willing to break the rules when it suits his agenda, and God knows he has never shown any willingness whatsoever to accept responsibility for his poor decisions. We're already sliding down that slippery slope, yet Bush was unwilling to use his authority the one time it was most critically needed.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: conjur
Corn, in this situation, imo, the President should have done everything in his power that the National Response Plan provides. All of the forecasters were saying this could be the one to wipe out New Orleans. I know he was on a "working vacation" but when, in the critical moments that this storm hit and immediately after, he spends his time campaigning for his agenda, eating cake, and playing guitar, it leaves a very cold and bitter taste in the mouths of Americans.

He had the power to waive the requirement that Governors formally request assistance and could have sent military resources into the area to help evacuate and provide aid, all without violating Posse Comitatus.

It doesn't matter what you or I think the President *should* have done. Do you honestly believe the outcome would have been any different? The only way to prevent the tragedy that happened was to forcibly remove every resident of New Orleans prior to the hurricane hitting landfall. That was never gonna happen. After the city was flooded, it was too late to evacuate....the damage had already been done. Honest realization knows that the overwhelming vast majority of the death toll happened 4 minutes after the flood waters reached their highest level.

I will not argue that people died days after that, of course they did. But it weeks to starve to death, and more than days to dehydrate yourself to death. The lack of relief contributed to suffering, but not death on a grand scale.

No amount of *cutting red tape* would have saved the vast majority of the dead: those people who drowned hiding in their homes.

 

[Corn]

Bowfinger.......when do you believe that the vast majority of the dead perished? Honest question, give an honest answer, please. We'll work from there.

 

[ECUHITMAN]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: maluckey
So, waiting 24 hours to sign over authority to FEMA isn't irresponsible?? Waiting to sign evacuation orders until Wed. is not irresponsible??

Sign over authority to the organization that caused the deaths of hundreds or even thousands? *THAT* would have been irresponsible! FEMA had its chance to do the right thing but Horseman fvcked it up.

The Federal Govt. CANNOT do anything within a State as far as STATE functions are concerned until the STATE authorizes it. What part of that is hard to understand? LA dropped the ball. The Feds are SLOW as is commonly known, and paperwork isn't instant. NOTHING in the Federal sytem means squat until the signatures on on the papers and the General Counsel gives it approval.

Have you not been reading? Again, go to the NRP, pages 42-43.

Here goes conjur again, trying to cite a couple of pages from a 426 page document as some sort of authority and final word.

Here's something from page 42 that conjur has neglected to C&P:

Army and Air National Guard Forces: National
Guard forces employed under State Active Duty or
Title 32 status are providing support to the Governor
of their State and are not part of Federal military
response efforts.

Here's the part he's beefing about:

Immediate Response Authority
Imminently serious conditions resulting from any civil
emergency may require immediate action to save lives,
prevent human suffering, or mitigate property damage.
When such conditions exist and time does not permit
approval from higher headquarters, local military
commanders and responsible officials from DOD
components and agencies are authorized by DOD directive
and pre-approval by the Secretary of Defense, subject to
any supplemental direction that may be provided by their
DOD component, to take necessary action to respond to
requests of civil authorities consistent with the Posse
Comitatus Act (18 U.S.C. § 1385). All such necessary
action is referred to as ?Immediate Response.?

Except he glossese over the Posse Comitatus Act completely, as if it doesn't exist.

To get a good idea of who is responsbile for what in such an emergency, read Section III - Roles and Responsiblities. It defines exactly what the governor and mayor are responsible for:

Governor
As a State?s chief executive, the Governor is responsible
for the public safety and welfare of the people of that
State or territory. The Governor:
¦ Is responsible for coordinating State resources to
address the full spectrum of actions to prevent,
prepare for, respond to, and recover from incidents in
an all-hazards context to include terrorism, natural
disasters, accidents, and other contingencies;
¦ Under certain emergency conditions, typically has
police powers to make, amend, and rescind orders
and regulations;
¦ Provides leadership and plays a key role in
communicating to the public and in helping people,
businesses, and organizations cope with the
consequences of any type of declared emergency
within State jurisdiction;
¦ Encourages participation in mutual aid and
implements authorities for the State to enter into
mutual aid agreements with other States, tribes, and
territories to facilitate resource-sharing;
¦ Is the Commander-in-Chief of State military forces
(National Guard when in State Active Duty or Title 32
Status and the authorized State militias); and
¦ Requests Federal assistance when it becomes clear
that State or tribal capabilities will be insufficient or
have been exceeded or exhausted.

Local Chief Executive Officer
A mayor or city or county manager, as a jurisdiction?s
chief executive, is responsible for the public safety and
welfare of the people of that jurisdiction. The Local
Chief Executive Officer:
¦ Is responsible for coordinating local resources to
address the full spectrum of actions to prevent,
prepare for, respond to, and recover from incidents
involving all hazards including terrorism, natural
disasters, accidents, and other contingencies;
¦ Dependent upon State and local law, has
extraordinary powers to suspend local laws and
ordinances, such as to establish a curfew, direct
evacuations, and, in coordination with the local
health authority, to order a quarantine;
¦ Provides leadership and plays a key role in communicating
to the public, and in helping people, businesses,
and organizations cope with the consequences of
any type of domestic incident within the jurisdiction;
¦ Negotiates and enters into mutual aid agreements with
other jurisdictions to facilitate resource-sharing; and
¦ Requests State and, if necessary, Federal assistance
through the Governor of the State when the jurisdiction?s
capabilities have been exceeded or exhausted.

And if you want to read some more pages, I also suggest you read section IV, which defines Concepts of Operation. The primary meme carried throughout that section is the following:

A basic premise of the NRP is that incidents are
generally handled at the lowest jurisdictional level
possible.

In an Incident of National Significance, the Secretary
of Homeland Security, in coordination with other
Federal departments and agencies, initiates actions
to prevent, prepare for, respond to, and recover from
the incident. These actions are taken in conjunction
with State, local, tribal, nongovernmental, and
private-sector entities.

Nothing permits the feds to run the show short of Bush wresting control from the governor or the governor turning over control to Bush. The Posse Comitatus Act does not permit it.

So despite what conjur has kept regurgitating over and over and over, he is simply wrong.

The Posse Comitatus Act does not allow the MILITARY to police its own people; it does not keep the National Guard from going in. So where was the National Guard? If there was a shortage of National Guard (which there was) all Bush would have to do is declare martial law, and he could do whatever he wanted with the military (which he did, but he did not send the military down in great numbers until Friday). I know this for a fact because I live near Camp Lejune Marine base in NC and a good friend of mine got deployed to NO. She was told she was going to go on Wed, but did not leave until Friday.

 

[Corn]

Just what exactly do you think the role of government is if not to provide for public safety in the face of an extraordinary threat like this? Here, let me use the couterpart of your "logic". I realize the Bushies like you believe that it's the government's responsibility to do everything possible to further enrich the wealthy ... to dole out corporate welfare and taxpayer-funded windfalls to BushCo cronies and patrons ... that is the Republican way, no?

Paying for protection is not a guarantee of protection. We pay for a police force, yet crime still happens, drunk drivers still kill thousands each year, swindlers steal billions.....

It is an unrealistic expectation that any and every catastrophe can be avoided.

I invest my money in the stock market. The stock market doesn't always earn me money, but isn't that the reason for the investment?

The difference between you and I: I accept the realities that humans are involved in the decision making process of our government. Since we are imperfect beings, both conservative and liberal, things don't always go according to plan. There were many failures in New Orleans and no one single entity is to *blame* any more than the other. The bottom line is that no one took seriously the potential devistation that was headed that way. Even those people on the news the Saturday and Sunday before Katrina hit, who were boarding up their homes and shops stating they were going to ride out the storm........

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
The Posse Comitatus Act does not allow the MILITARY to police its own people; it does not keep the National Guard from going in. So where was the National Guard?

Again, who is responsible for the National Guard?

The governor is. Bush does not control the NG.

If there was a shortage of National Guard (which there was) all Bush would have to do is declare martial law, and he could do whatever he wanted with the military (which he did, but he did not send the military down in great numbers until Friday). I know this for a fact because I live near Camp Lejune Marine base in NC and a good friend of mine got deployed to NO. She was told she was going to go on Wed, but did not leave until Friday.

By declaring martial law, the president would have been suspending the authority of the local and state governments. Can you imagine the sh!tstorm such an act would have created. The screams of 'Bush invades LA' would have been bouncing off the walls in here and all across the nation. People would have been whining that 'Bush didn't even give Nagin and Blanco a chance' and tossing out all kinds of speciously spun accusations. Don't even go there.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN

The Posse Comitatus Act does not allow the MILITARY to police its own people; it does not keep the National Guard from going in. So where was the National Guard? If there was a shortage of National Guard (which there was) all Bush would have to do is declare martial law, and he could do whatever he wanted with the military (which he did, but he did not send the military down in great numbers until Friday). I know this for a fact because I live near Camp Lejune Marine base in NC and a good friend of mine got deployed to NO. She was told she was going to go on Wed, but did not leave until Friday.

You'd have to ask Blanco what she was doing with the Louisiana National Guard.

 

[ECUHITMAN]

I quote from:
18 U.S.C. § 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

"Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."

To understand the extent to which the act has relevance today, it is important to understand to whom the act applies and under what circumstances. The statutory language of the act does not apply to all U.S. military forces.[2] While the act applies to the Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marines, including their Reserve components, it does not apply to the Coast Guard or to the huge military manpower resources of the National Guard.[3] The National Guard, when it is operating in its state status pursuant to Title 32 of the U.S. Code, is not subject to the prohibitions on civilian law enforcement. (Federal military forces operate pursuant to Title 10 of the U.S. Code.) In fact, one of the express missions of the Guard is to preserve the laws of the state during times of emergency when regular law enforcement assets prove inadequate. It is only when federalized pursuant to an exercise of presidential authority that the Guard becomes subject to the limitations of the Posse Comitatus Act.

Found: http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm

 

[ECUHITMAN]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN

The Posse Comitatus Act does not allow the MILITARY to police its own people; it does not keep the National Guard from going in. So where was the National Guard? If there was a shortage of National Guard (which there was) all Bush would have to do is declare martial law, and he could do whatever he wanted with the military (which he did, but he did not send the military down in great numbers until Friday). I know this for a fact because I live near Camp Lejune Marine base in NC and a good friend of mine got deployed to NO. She was told she was going to go on Wed, but did not leave until Friday.

You'd have to ask Blanco what she was doing with the Louisiana National Guard.

I guess I would have to, or maybe she sent in all she had. Could it be the Louisiana National Guard is elsewhere?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN

The Posse Comitatus Act does not allow the MILITARY to police its own people; it does not keep the National Guard from going in. So where was the National Guard? If there was a shortage of National Guard (which there was) all Bush would have to do is declare martial law, and he could do whatever he wanted with the military (which he did, but he did not send the military down in great numbers until Friday). I know this for a fact because I live near Camp Lejune Marine base in NC and a good friend of mine got deployed to NO. She was told she was going to go on Wed, but did not leave until Friday.

You'd have to ask Blanco what she was doing with the Louisiana National Guard.

I guess I would have to, or maybe she sent in all she had. Could it be the Louisiana National Guard is elsewhere?

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbc...D=/20050830/NEWS01/508300352/1002/NEWS

State's military presence aids in storm relief
While some Guard members fight in Iraq, others battle elements.
August 30, 2005

Barkdale's role:
Barksdale Air Force Base has been tagged to be the Federal Mobilization Center for Hurricane Katrina relief by the Federal Emergency Management Agency. FEMA representatives started arriving Saturday. The base's East Gate is now reserved for official FEMA and commercial vehicles only -- all other traffic, including all privately owned vehicles, must use alternate gates. Visitors entering the base should also allow extra time as increased traffic is expected, base officials said.

By John Andrew Prime

Though thousands of its members are half a world away, gearing up in Iraq to begin their journey home from war, the Louisiana Army National Guard this week is tackling its other primary mission, disaster relief.

It's no surprise. In June long before the 2005 hurricane season shifted into overdrive, the state military's second-in-command, Brig. Gen. Hunt Downer, told The Times the Louisiana Army National Guard was practiced and ready to handle the big storms.

"We have enough troops remaining here in the state," Downer said. "We've always done that. And as in all cases, we move troops around to meet where the need's going to be. Not many really appreciate and understand the uniqueness of the National Guard, (that) we have a dual mission."

As Hurricane Katrina surged past New Orleans, Louisiana mobilized its soldiers to help, as did Mississippi, Alabama and other southern states. Despite prominent roles in the War on Terror, the states report more than the 50 percent strength mandated for homeland missions. Louisiana has 65 percent of its troops available for state missions; Mississippi, 60 percent; Alabama, 77 percent; and Florida, 74 percent, Guard officials said.

"It's a calming and reassuring effect on the American public when they see their National Guard," Army Lt. Gen. H. Steven Blum, National Guard Bureau commander, said. "When you call out the Guard, you know that you've got committed citizen-soldiers with considerable skills and a great commitment to the mission at hand."

The Louisiana National Guard had called almost 3,500 of its members to state active duty as of 7 a.m. Monday to help with missions that ranged from aiding law enforcement agencies with traffic control and security to conducting searches and rescues and providing generator support. Guard members conducted security and screening at the emergency shelter at the New Orleans Superdome, and elsewhere helped state police with evacuations.

Past experience has helped, Downer said.

"As a storm approaches, we know where to move stuff so it's not in harm's way, but is available to go in, immediately after the storm clears, and the danger passes, to begin whatever operations as are necessary," Downer said. "Our engineer survey teams, unfortunately, have a lot of experience."

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: conjur
Corn, in this situation, imo, the President should have done everything in his power that the National Response Plan provides. All of the forecasters were saying this could be the one to wipe out New Orleans. I know he was on a "working vacation" but when, in the critical moments that this storm hit and immediately after, he spends his time campaigning for his agenda, eating cake, and playing guitar, it leaves a very cold and bitter taste in the mouths of Americans.

He had the power to waive the requirement that Governors formally request assistance and could have sent military resources into the area to help evacuate and provide aid, all without violating Posse Comitatus.

It doesn't matter what you or I think the President *should* have done. Do you honestly believe the outcome would have been any different? The only way to prevent the tragedy that happened was to forcibly remove every resident of New Orleans prior to the hurricane hitting landfall. That was never gonna happen. After the city was flooded, it was too late to evacuate....the damage had already been done. Honest realization knows that the overwhelming vast majority of the death toll happened 4 minutes after the flood waters reached their highest level.

I don't necessarily agree with your final statement there. But, yes, I think the outcome would have been FAR different had the President used the capabilities available to him. There are untold numbers of corpses stacked up in the Superdome, the Convention Center, and other areas. The ones dead at the Superdome and the Conv. Ctr. were not from drowning, it was from lack of food, water, medicine and probably some due to violence. How many patients died in hospitals due to no evacuation help arriving for days and no airdrops or convoys of food, water, medicine, etc.? How many died of thirst or no medicine waiting on rooftops, on second floors, in attics, etc.? Yes, I'm sure a sizable number died from drowning but I don't believe it comes anywhere near as much as those dead from waiting.

I will not argue that people died days after that, of course they did. But it weeks to starve to death, and more than days to dehydrate yourself to death. The lack of relief contributed to suffering, but not death on a grand scale.

You are forgetting the number of babies, ill, and elderly plus the heat of New Orleans in summer exacerbates the numbers dead from lack of food and water. Reporters from various news networks were literally watching people die in front of them.

And how many resorted to drinking the contaminated water out of desperation and contracted who knows what types of illness or even died from it? And what about those passing out from heat exhaustion and rolling into the water as they weren't evacuated in time? There's probably quite a few who will be officially declared dead as drowning but it won't show the reason why they drowned.

No amount of *cutting red tape* would have saved the vast majority of the dead: those people who drowned hiding in their homes.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the cause of death of the majority.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Corn
Bowfinger.......when do you believe that the vast majority of the dead perished? Honest question, give an honest answer, please. We'll work from there.

In New Orleans, I believe most of the deaths happened in the week after the storm due to drowning, dehydration, and health problems. I assume these were only secondary causes in most of the rest of the impacted area.

 

[Michael]

To interject a slight comment. All the timelines I've seen show that the LA NG in the area was in the city pretty quick. Since many of the locals fled in front of the storm and since a wholescale activation of the guard was not started before the hurricane hit, there was only so many LA Guardsmen available. The neighbouring stares were either hit as hard or harder or had to deal wit the severe storm as it passed their area. They also activated their NG and troops were there within a couple of days.

By the time most troops could have been there, the flooding had pretty much happened. Not really too sure what any reaction by anyone could have done in that case.

Michael

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Michael
To interject a slight comment. All the timelines I've seen show that the LA NG in the area was in the city pretty quick. Since many of the locals fled in front of the storm and since a wholescale acttivation of the guard was not started before the hurricane hit, there was only so many LA Guardsmen available. The neighbouring stares were either hit as hard or harder or had to deal wit the severe storm as it passed their area. They also activated their NG and troops were there within a couple of days.

By the time most troops could have been there, the flooding had pretty much happened. Not really too sure what any reaction by anyone could have done in that case.

Michael

Obviously it was Bush's fault for not proactively positioning Moses to part the waters. Where's Charleton Heston when you really need him? 😉

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Obviously it was Bush's fault for not proactively positioning Moses to part the waters. Where's Charleton Heston when you really need him? 😉

😛retzel;

Asshat. Glad you find this tragedy so amusing. It explains a lot about you.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Obviously it was Bush's fault for not proactively positioning Moses to part the waters. Where's Charleton Heston when you really need him? 😉

😛retzel;

Asshat. Glad you find this tragedy so amusing. It explains a lot about you.

It's not about the tragedy, moron. It points at jerks like you and conjur and your single- and simple-minded blame game and political opportunism that you're both attempting to capitalize on, using this disaster as your stepping stone.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Corn

Just what exactly do you think the role of government is if not to provide for public safety in the face of an extraordinary threat like this? Here, let me use the couterpart of your "logic". I realize the Bushies like you believe that it's the government's responsibility to do everything possible to further enrich the wealthy ... to dole out corporate welfare and taxpayer-funded windfalls to BushCo cronies and patrons ... that is the Republican way, no?

Paying for protection is not a guarantee of protection. We pay for a police force, yet crime still happens, drunk drivers still kill thousands each year, swindlers steal billions.....

It is an unrealistic expectation that any and every catastrophe can be avoided.

I invest my money in the stock market. The stock market doesn't always earn me money, but isn't that the reason for the investment?

The difference between you and I: I accept the realities that humans are involved in the decision making process of our government. Since we are imperfect beings, both conservative and liberal, things don't always go according to plan. There were many failures in New Orleans and no one single entity is to *blame* any more than the other. The bottom line is that no one took seriously the potential devistation that was headed that way. Even those people on the news the Saturday and Sunday before Katrina hit, who were boarding up their homes and shops stating they were going to ride out the storm........

I agree humans are imperfect. I believe in holding people responsible for their mistakes, however, especially when someone in such a critical role so totally fails to meet his or her responsibilities. I agree with you there is fault at all levels, and have said so several times. My issue is with the hard-core Bush faithful, the usual suspects who steadfastly refuse to ever accept Bush might be in the wrong about anything. Their blind devotion is hurting America, and literally killing Americans ... IMO, of course.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Obviously it was Bush's fault for not proactively positioning Moses to part the waters. Where's Charleton Heston when you really need him? 😉

😛retzel;

Asshat. Glad you find this tragedy so amusing. It explains a lot about you.

It's not about the tragedy, moron. It points at jerks like you and conjur and your single- and simple-minded blame game and political opportunism that you're both attempting to capitalize on, using this disaster as your stepping stone.

Except as I've pointed out (and you've run from, no surprise), I've repeatedly said there's fault at all levels. You are the single-minded one, in your blind desperation to deflect any and all suggestion of failure by Bush and his administration. I'd say it's time to move on to your next diversion; that one's been soundly thrashed.

(Oh yeah. You're wrong about one more thing. It is about the tragedy. It is first and foremost about the tragedy. It is shameful that you can't accept that.)

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Obviously it was Bush's fault for not proactively positioning Moses to part the waters. Where's Charleton Heston when you really need him? 😉

😛retzel;

Asshat. Glad you find this tragedy so amusing. It explains a lot about you.

It's not about the tragedy, moron. It points at jerks like you and conjur and your single- and simple-minded blame game and political opportunism that you're both attempting to capitalize on, using this disaster as your stepping stone.

Except as I've pointed out (and you've run from, no surprise), I've repeatedly said there's fault at all levels. You are the single-minded one, in your blind desperation to deflect any and all suggestion of failure by Bush and his administration. I'd say it's time to move on to your next diversion; that one's been soundly thrashed.

(Oh yeah. You're wrong about one more thing. It is about the tragedy. It is first and foremost about the tragedy. It is shameful that you can't accept that.)

It seems you completely ignore that I've already stated for some days now that Brown deserves to get fired and all along have pointed at authorities up and down the line while you make statements like:

"Get real. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. Bureaucrats are slaves to the rule book. Being a leader means knowing when to break the rules, and being willing to accept the consequences for your decisions. One of my greatest gripes about Bush is he fails on both counts. He has proven time and again he is willing to break the rules when it suits his agenda, and God knows he has never shown any willingness whatsoever to accept responsibility for his poor decisions. We're already sliding down that slippery slope, yet Bush was unwilling to use his authority the one time it was most critically needed."

And, per your usual, you're sputtering on endlessly about "Bush," "Bushies," and republicans and insisting they are the ones to blame. So take your high and mighty act and stow it, pal. You aren't fooling anyone but yourself.

 

[PELarson]

Originally posted by: conjur
ABC has been raked across the coals for that piece of misinformation.

But, guess it doesn't matter in the face of Rovian pressure. "But experts say". :roll:

Plus, it's another pawning off of the NRP's capabilities that clearly state the Feds can waive the requirement for the state to issue a formal request.


Nope, nice try, TrollsLikeChicken.

"Mayor Ray Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city of New Orleans in the face of Category-5 Katrina which was expected to make a direct strike on the city early Monday. Nagin said that the predicted tidal surges and heavy rains could mean widespread flooding and power outages that could last for some time.

The order extends to everyone in the city of New Orleans with the following exceptions: Essential military and law enforcement personnel from the city and state, regulated utilities employees, essential members of the media, hospital employees and their patients, medical personnel, Criminal Sheriff's personnel and inmates and hotels and their patrons.


Nagin said the city could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need.


He also opened the Louisiana Superdome as a shelter of last resort that would begin accepting people around Noon. He said the Dome would have few supplies and that people were expected to bring food and other necessary items. RTA buses were going to be sent to pick up those going to shelters at designated pickup points.


Nagin discouraged staying in the Superdome, saying that people would not have access to power and possibly plumbing."
Nagin orders mandatory evacuation in face of Katrina