MSM finally catching on to the facts about NO

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: conjur
Prove I'm wrong. Prove this 24hr timeframe wasn't on Fri. when the worst of the crisis was over.

I'll look for the non-answer in the morning.

LOL. Leave it to conjur to attempt to narrow the focus to avoid the mitigating circumstances.

You just keep getting more and more transparent and apologetic as this goes on.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: db
video

:thumbsup: LOL FEMA needs more funding? Noooo, say it isn't so :laugh:

Walmart did a better job responding than FEMA, go figure.

Timeline

Build a dam in Arkansas! We'll fight the water there, so we don't have to fight the water in here in New Orleans

 

[Busithoth]

My favorite result of this bogus argument is the logical follow-up: So, if there IS a terrorist attack, you better reach for the nearest bic pen and start scribbling, in triplicate, and keep the successful fax forms, because they 'may' get lost, and lord knows we're gonna sit on our hands until you've crossed your T's and dotted your I's.

Seriously, do people understand that the government has effectively said that you're on your own to defend yourself, good luck, etc?
After scaring the frak out of people by implying that an attack is only a matter of when, not if, we've seen that if they do attack, we'll have no plan, ever.

I don't say this as an exoneration of Blanco and Nagin. To armchair quarterback, they should have thought through a plan to mobilize those without transportation.
But it is just sick to ignore the fact that you're asking people whose lives and families just got blown apart to perform without emotion, without aid, without rest.

If I were as callous as you, I'd welcome a similar calamity in your neighborhood so you could rejoin the human experience.

Oh, and Trolls like Chicken: transparent and apologetic? Who's pulling from GOP talking points memos, and who's apologizing for Bush?

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: conjur
Prove I'm wrong. Prove this 24hr timeframe wasn't on Fri. when the worst of the crisis was over.

I'll look for the non-answer in the morning.

LOL. Leave it to conjur to attempt to narrow the focus to avoid the mitigating circumstances.

You just keep getting more and more transparent and apologetic as this goes on.

Pot Kettle Black.

Is it the MSM catching on, or the Presidential handlers?

The president's supporters acknowledge that shifting the political narrative from one in which Bush is cast as aloof or incompetent to one in which a caught-off-guard chief rises to the occasion will work only if conditions on the battered Gulf Coast continue to improve.


''One potential narrative is that the administration sometimes starts slow, but it finishes strong. The president locks in, and he's a problem solver," said a senior administration official. This same official, however, stressed: ''We have to get this right substantively. There's not a lot you can do to spin this."

Story Here

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: arsbanned

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: conjur
Prove I'm wrong. Prove this 24hr timeframe wasn't on Fri. when the worst of the crisis was over.

I'll look for the non-answer in the morning.

LOL. Leave it to conjur to attempt to narrow the focus to avoid the mitigating circumstances.

You just keep getting more and more transparent and apologetic as this goes on.

Pot Kettle Black.

Is it the MSM catching on, or the Presidential handlers?

The president's supporters acknowledge that shifting the political narrative from one in which Bush is cast as aloof or incompetent to one in which a caught-off-guard chief rises to the occasion will work only if conditions on the battered Gulf Coast continue to improve.


''One potential narrative is that the administration sometimes starts slow, but it finishes strong. The president locks in, and he's a problem solver," said a senior administration official. This same official, however, stressed: ''We have to get this right substantively. There's not a lot you can do to spin this."

Story Here

So-called "liberal media" sticks to right-wing, Rovian talking points and flat-out REFUSES to listen to documented FACTS:

SOME IN THE MEDIA IGNORING FACTS
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2005/9/7/142737/2117

by Larry C. Johnson

While watching the MSNBC program, CONNECTED, COAST TO COAST with Ron Reagan, a man from the Evergreen Foundation was on air spinning the myth that the President had to "beg" the Governor of Louisiana to take action.

Having been on this show several times I called one of the bookers, Susan Durrwatcher, to alert her to the fact that this man was misrepresenting what happened. I offered Susan the following objective, documented facts (see timeline below).

Susan thanked me for my "opinion" and said "we just have a different perspective."

Stunned, I asked her by what standard of journalism that an objective fact was mere opinion? I asked her to simply look at the documents and correct the record. She declined. I asked her to remove me from the MSNBC list of contacts. I'm sure MSNBC won't miss me and I am certain I will have a happy life without having to subject myself to their unprofessional approach to journalism.

The Bush White House is furiously spinning to lay the blame on the Governor and Mayor of Louisiana. My position is that I think both the Governor and the Mayor can be faulted on a variety of fronts. I do not absolve them of their responsibility to properly and fully implement their own emergency response plans.

However, the Governor followed the appropriate protocol and, in accordance with the National Response Plan (NRP), asked the President in accordance with the Stafford Act, to declare a State of Emergency.

Just disgusting.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: conjur
Just disgusting.

Yeah, it is pretty pathetic that Bush had to tell Blanco to get off her ass and order an evacuation. Otherwise she wouldn't have figured it out. AND IT STILL TOOK HER 24 HOURS TOO LONG!

Now she's running around blaming EVERYONE ELSE but herself for her sheer and utter incompetence.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Busithoth
My favorite result of this bogus argument is the logical follow-up: So, if there IS a terrorist attack, you better reach for the nearest bic pen and start scribbling, in triplicate, and keep the successful fax forms, because they 'may' get lost, and lord knows we're gonna sit on our hands until you've crossed your T's and dotted your I's.

Seriously, do people understand that the government has effectively said that you're on your own to defend yourself, good luck, etc?
After scaring the frak out of people by implying that an attack is only a matter of when, not if, we've seen that if they do attack, we'll have no plan, ever.

I don't say this as an exoneration of Blanco and Nagin. To armchair quarterback, they should have thought through a plan to mobilize those without transportation.
But it is just sick to ignore the fact that you're asking people whose lives and families just got blown apart to perform without emotion, without aid, without rest.

If I were as callous as you, I'd welcome a similar calamity in your neighborhood so you could rejoin the human experience.

Oh, and Trolls like Chicken: transparent and apologetic? Who's pulling from GOP talking points memos, and who's apologizing for Bush?

Well said. We pay the federal government (specifically the Pentagon + FEMA) hundreds of billions of dollars to protect us. If it is not for a disaster like this, then what the hell are we paying for? There are no doubt many failures at the state and local level, but the simple fact is they are absolutely incapable of handling a disaster of this magnitude, and no rational person would expect otherwise. Only the fed has the resources and portable infrastructure essential to responding to a catastrophe like this, and those resources were brought to bear too little, too late.

Obviously, the Bush administration is NOT solely responsible for the problems. They were too fixated on turf battles and paperwork, however, fatally delaying response. President Bush was uniquely positioned to cut through this red tape, to order an immediate all-out mobilization of federal resources. Instead, he wound down his vacation and posed for photo-ops. Bush fiddled while New Orleans drowned, and the blustering Bush apologists are in full-throttle damage control spin to divert from that tragic fact.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Obviously, the Bush administration is NOT solely responsible for the problems. They were too fixated on turf battles and paperwork, however, fatally delaying response. President Bush was uniquely positioned to cut through this red tape, to order an immediate all-out mobilization of federal resources. Instead, he wound down his vacation and posed for photo-ops. Bush fiddled while New Orleans drowned, and the blustering Bush apologists are in full-throttle damage control spin to divert from that tragic fact.

Hard to face the facts? Americans aren't falling for the extreme radical left-wing "blame game" that you and your cohorts have tried to throw around. Overall those who "Blame Bush" are a very small percentage. The people see right through your facade.

So you keep spinning and spinning.

 

[Rainsford]

Ok, seriously, all the appologists of any stripe are getting really annoying. Why is this an either/or sort of deal, why if some blame lies with the leaders of the state is the federal government blameless? Why if Bush and friends are to blame is the state innocent? The reports I've seen seem to mostly indicate that pretty much everyone involved could have done this better. Now clearly some of that is partisan noise, and it is of course possible that the majority of the blame lies with one particular group, but nobody has made a convincing argument along those lines yet, unless you count the logic of the appologists.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Originally posted by: OrByte
trollslikechicken

hehe thats good one!

When Liberals like Conjur have no argument, they turn to the politics of personal destruction. Conjur's name-calling is a good case in point.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
When Liberals like Conjur have no argument, they turn to the politics of personal destruction. Conjur's name-calling is a good case in point.

:thumbsup:

 

[Jhhnn]

Funny how the Admin can really cut through the red tape to award no bid contracts to Halliburton, but need for everybody on the state and local level to provide perfect paperwork while people are dying...

Not to mention that southern rightwing antitax rhetoric effectively hamstrings the state and local guys' ability to act, having limited their resources long beforehand, or that the repubs will just borrow more money to cope with the situation, anyway...

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: OrByte
trollslikechicken

hehe thats good one!

When Liberals like Conjur have no argument, they turn to the politics of personal destruction. Conjur's name-calling is a good case in point.

This is true for both sides. Indeed, the Bush machine (particularly Karl Rove) is the pinnacle of the politics of personal destruction. That you chose to present this as a "Liberal" trait exposes your own blind partisanship.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Obviously, the Bush administration is NOT solely responsible for the problems. They were too fixated on turf battles and paperwork, however, fatally delaying response. President Bush was uniquely positioned to cut through this red tape, to order an immediate all-out mobilization of federal resources. Instead, he wound down his vacation and posed for photo-ops. Bush fiddled while New Orleans drowned, and the blustering Bush apologists are in full-throttle damage control spin to divert from that tragic fact.

Hard to face the facts? Americans aren't falling for the extreme radical left-wing "blame game" that you and your cohorts have tried to throw around. Overall those who "Blame Bush" are a very small percentage. The people see right through your facade.

So you keep spinning and spinning.

Yawn. Your mindless repitition of the official BushCo propaganda points is a joke, a tragic joke. It is you clowns with your "Bush is perfect" chant who are becoming an endangered species. Only an idiot would insist Bush is above any criticism at all. Until you can acknowledge he bears at least some responsibility for this tragedy, your posts will remain a blindly partisan waste of electrons.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Busithoth
My favorite result of this bogus argument is the logical follow-up: So, if there IS a terrorist attack, you better reach for the nearest bic pen and start scribbling, in triplicate, and keep the successful fax forms, because they 'may' get lost, and lord knows we're gonna sit on our hands until you've crossed your T's and dotted your I's.

Seriously, do people understand that the government has effectively said that you're on your own to defend yourself, good luck, etc?
After scaring the frak out of people by implying that an attack is only a matter of when, not if, we've seen that if they do attack, we'll have no plan, ever.

I don't say this as an exoneration of Blanco and Nagin. To armchair quarterback, they should have thought through a plan to mobilize those without transportation.
But it is just sick to ignore the fact that you're asking people whose lives and families just got blown apart to perform without emotion, without aid, without rest.

If I were as callous as you, I'd welcome a similar calamity in your neighborhood so you could rejoin the human experience.

Oh, and Trolls like Chicken: transparent and apologetic? Who's pulling from GOP talking points memos, and who's apologizing for Bush?

Well said. We pay the federal government (specifically the Pentagon + FEMA) hundreds of billions of dollars to protect us. If it is not for a disaster like this, then what the hell are we paying for? There are no doubt many failures at the state and local level, but the simple fact is they are absolutely incapable of handling a disaster of this magnitude, and no rational person would expect otherwise. Only the fed has the resources and portable infrastructure essential to responding to a catastrophe like this, and those resources were brought to bear too little, too late.

Obviously, the Bush administration is NOT solely responsible for the problems. They were too fixated on turf battles and paperwork, however, fatally delaying response. President Bush was uniquely positioned to cut through this red tape, to order an immediate all-out mobilization of federal resources. Instead, he wound down his vacation and posed for photo-ops. Bush fiddled while New Orleans drowned, and the blustering Bush apologists are in full-throttle damage control spin to divert from that tragic fact.

(And I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I've bolded above. I've posed it several times over the last few days, with no response. What, exactly, are we paying for? What are we getting for our hundreds of billions of dollars?)

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
When Liberals like Conjur have no argument, they turn to the politics of personal destruction. Conjur's name-calling is a good case in point.

:thumbsup:

Fair enough, but you "conservatives" have an equally silly tactic, the tactic of distraction. It's like watching a particularly bad magician at work. Think of all the wasted time spent blaming the state government, as if that means the federal government is in the clear. The whole argument makes no sense.

 

[maluckey]

So, waiting 24 hours to sign over authority to FEMA isn't irresponsible?? Waiting to sign evacuation orders until Wed. is not irresponsible??

The Federal Govt. CANNOT do anything within a State as far as STATE functions are concerned until the STATE authorizes it. What part of that is hard to understand? LA dropped the ball. The Feds are SLOW as is commonly known, and paperwork isn't instant. NOTHING in the Federal sytem means squat until the signatures on on the papers and the General Counsel gives it approval.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: maluckey
So, waiting 24 hours to sign over authority to FEMA isn't irresponsible?? Waiting to sign evacuation orders until Wed. is not irresponsible??

The Federal Govt. CANNOT do anything within a State as far as STATE functions are concerned until the STATE authorizes it. What part of that is hard to understand? LA dropped the ball. The Feds are SLOW as is commonly known, and paperwork isn't instant. NOTHING in the Federal sytem means squat until the signatures on on the papers and the General Counsel gives it approval.

All of that can and must be set aside when you're talking about a catastophe of this magnitude. If the FEMA and military bureaucrats lacked the initiative to do so automatically in such an unprecedented emergency, Bush should have done if for them. That's what leadership is all about. I think Bush's biggest personal failure here was his failure to cut through this red tape. Hundred, perhaps thousands died while the bureaucracy fixated on procedures and turf. A great leader could have changed that.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: maluckey
So, waiting 24 hours to sign over authority to FEMA isn't irresponsible?? Waiting to sign evacuation orders until Wed. is not irresponsible??

The Federal Govt. CANNOT do anything within a State as far as STATE functions are concerned until the STATE authorizes it. What part of that is hard to understand? LA dropped the ball. The Feds are SLOW as is commonly known, and paperwork isn't instant. NOTHING in the Federal sytem means squat until the signatures on on the papers and the General Counsel gives it approval.

Ok...why is this a hard concept? The fact that the state made mistakes (yes, I'm admitting it) doesn't mean the federal government didn't ALSO make mistakes. I think there is plenty of blame to go around, this idea that because the state could have done things better meaning the feds are in the clear is just mind-boggling.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: maluckey
So, waiting 24 hours to sign over authority to FEMA isn't irresponsible?? Waiting to sign evacuation orders until Wed. is not irresponsible??

Sign over authority to the organization that caused the deaths of hundreds or even thousands? *THAT* would have been irresponsible! FEMA had its chance to do the right thing but Horseman fvcked it up.

The Federal Govt. CANNOT do anything within a State as far as STATE functions are concerned until the STATE authorizes it. What part of that is hard to understand? LA dropped the ball. The Feds are SLOW as is commonly known, and paperwork isn't instant. NOTHING in the Federal sytem means squat until the signatures on on the papers and the General Counsel gives it approval.

Have you not been reading? Again, go to the NRP, pages 42-43.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: maluckey
So, waiting 24 hours to sign over authority to FEMA isn't irresponsible?? Waiting to sign evacuation orders until Wed. is not irresponsible??

Sign over authority to the organization that caused the deaths of hundreds or even thousands? *THAT* would have been irresponsible! FEMA had its chance to do the right thing but Horseman fvcked it up.

The Federal Govt. CANNOT do anything within a State as far as STATE functions are concerned until the STATE authorizes it. What part of that is hard to understand? LA dropped the ball. The Feds are SLOW as is commonly known, and paperwork isn't instant. NOTHING in the Federal sytem means squat until the signatures on on the papers and the General Counsel gives it approval.

Have you not been reading? Again, go to the NRP, pages 42-43.

Here goes conjur again, trying to cite a couple of pages from a 426 page document as some sort of authority and final word.

Here's something from page 42 that conjur has neglected to C&P:

Army and Air National Guard Forces: National
Guard forces employed under State Active Duty or
Title 32 status are providing support to the Governor
of their State and are not part of Federal military
response efforts.

Here's the part he's beefing about:

Immediate Response Authority
Imminently serious conditions resulting from any civil
emergency may require immediate action to save lives,
prevent human suffering, or mitigate property damage.
When such conditions exist and time does not permit
approval from higher headquarters, local military
commanders and responsible officials from DOD
components and agencies are authorized by DOD directive
and pre-approval by the Secretary of Defense, subject to
any supplemental direction that may be provided by their
DOD component, to take necessary action to respond to
requests of civil authorities consistent with the Posse
Comitatus Act (18 U.S.C. § 1385). All such necessary
action is referred to as ?Immediate Response.?

Except he glossese over the Posse Comitatus Act completely, as if it doesn't exist.

To get a good idea of who is responsbile for what in such an emergency, read Section III - Roles and Responsiblities. It defines exactly what the governor and mayor are responsible for:

Governor
As a State?s chief executive, the Governor is responsible
for the public safety and welfare of the people of that
State or territory. The Governor:
¦ Is responsible for coordinating State resources to
address the full spectrum of actions to prevent,
prepare for, respond to, and recover from incidents in
an all-hazards context to include terrorism, natural
disasters, accidents, and other contingencies;
¦ Under certain emergency conditions, typically has
police powers to make, amend, and rescind orders
and regulations;
¦ Provides leadership and plays a key role in
communicating to the public and in helping people,
businesses, and organizations cope with the
consequences of any type of declared emergency
within State jurisdiction;
¦ Encourages participation in mutual aid and
implements authorities for the State to enter into
mutual aid agreements with other States, tribes, and
territories to facilitate resource-sharing;
¦ Is the Commander-in-Chief of State military forces
(National Guard when in State Active Duty or Title 32
Status and the authorized State militias); and
¦ Requests Federal assistance when it becomes clear
that State or tribal capabilities will be insufficient or
have been exceeded or exhausted.

Local Chief Executive Officer
A mayor or city or county manager, as a jurisdiction?s
chief executive, is responsible for the public safety and
welfare of the people of that jurisdiction. The Local
Chief Executive Officer:
¦ Is responsible for coordinating local resources to
address the full spectrum of actions to prevent,
prepare for, respond to, and recover from incidents
involving all hazards including terrorism, natural
disasters, accidents, and other contingencies;
¦ Dependent upon State and local law, has
extraordinary powers to suspend local laws and
ordinances, such as to establish a curfew, direct
evacuations, and, in coordination with the local
health authority, to order a quarantine;
¦ Provides leadership and plays a key role in communicating
to the public, and in helping people, businesses,
and organizations cope with the consequences of
any type of domestic incident within the jurisdiction;
¦ Negotiates and enters into mutual aid agreements with
other jurisdictions to facilitate resource-sharing; and
¦ Requests State and, if necessary, Federal assistance
through the Governor of the State when the jurisdiction?s
capabilities have been exceeded or exhausted.

And if you want to read some more pages, I also suggest you read section IV, which defines Concepts of Operation. The primary meme carried throughout that section is the following:

A basic premise of the NRP is that incidents are
generally handled at the lowest jurisdictional level
possible.

In an Incident of National Significance, the Secretary
of Homeland Security, in coordination with other
Federal departments and agencies, initiates actions
to prevent, prepare for, respond to, and recover from
the incident. These actions are taken in conjunction
with State, local, tribal, nongovernmental, and
private-sector entities.

Nothing permits the feds to run the show short of Bush wresting control from the governor or the governor turning over control to Bush. The Posse Comitatus Act does not permit it.

So despite what conjur has kept regurgitating over and over and over, he is simply wrong.

 

[conjur]

YET AGAIN, TrollsLikeChicken completely ignores the pertinent aspects of the NRP in order to fuel his distortions and trolling.


Figures.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Busithoth
My favorite result of this bogus argument is the logical follow-up: So, if there IS a terrorist attack, you better reach for the nearest bic pen and start scribbling, in triplicate, and keep the successful fax forms, because they 'may' get lost, and lord knows we're gonna sit on our hands until you've crossed your T's and dotted your I's.

Seriously, do people understand that the government has effectively said that you're on your own to defend yourself, good luck, etc?
After scaring the frak out of people by implying that an attack is only a matter of when, not if, we've seen that if they do attack, we'll have no plan, ever.

I don't say this as an exoneration of Blanco and Nagin. To armchair quarterback, they should have thought through a plan to mobilize those without transportation.
But it is just sick to ignore the fact that you're asking people whose lives and families just got blown apart to perform without emotion, without aid, without rest.

If I were as callous as you, I'd welcome a similar calamity in your neighborhood so you could rejoin the human experience.

Oh, and Trolls like Chicken: transparent and apologetic? Who's pulling from GOP talking points memos, and who's apologizing for Bush?

Well said. We pay the federal government (specifically the Pentagon + FEMA) hundreds of billions of dollars to protect us. If it is not for a disaster like this, then what the hell are we paying for? There are no doubt many failures at the state and local level, but the simple fact is they are absolutely incapable of handling a disaster of this magnitude, and no rational person would expect otherwise. Only the fed has the resources and portable infrastructure essential to responding to a catastrophe like this, and those resources were brought to bear too little, too late.

Obviously, the Bush administration is NOT solely responsible for the problems. They were too fixated on turf battles and paperwork, however, fatally delaying response. President Bush was uniquely positioned to cut through this red tape, to order an immediate all-out mobilization of federal resources. Instead, he wound down his vacation and posed for photo-ops. Bush fiddled while New Orleans drowned, and the blustering Bush apologists are in full-throttle damage control spin to divert from that tragic fact.

(And I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I've bolded above. I've posed it several times over the last few days, with no response. What, exactly, are we paying for? What are we getting for our hundreds of billions of dollars?)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but FEMA has never prevented a natural disaster, ever. The Pentagon protects us against our enemies abroad. I do believe it's the National Guard who protects *us* within our borders. Who is in charge of of the National Guard?

We pay taxes for many things Bowfinger. I certainly never believed that paying taxes was a *guarantee* against tragedy, forseeable or not.....

I realize the lefties like you believe that it's the government's responsibility to oversee every area of our lives...to coddle and take care of us...to be our mother hen......that is the liberal way, no?

Let me ask you monday morning quarterbacks an honest question:

Do you believe that Bush should just *cut the red tape* every time he believes it to be necessary, regardless of the law or consequences? Only when danger threatens? Perception of "danger" is mighty subjective. I'd rather not begin down that slippery slope, and neither would you if you were honest, and I generally support the man!

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: conjur
YET AGAIN, TrollsLikeChicken completely ignores the pertinent aspects of the NRP in order to fuel his distortions and trolling.


Figures.

Sure conjob. Answering your bullsh!t claim by providing proof to show you are full of it is trolling. :roll:

Please show us the "pertinent aspects" and provide some actual proof like I did, instead of being blustery and lamely atttempting to dismiss it by waving your hand in the air and tossing out accusations of trolling. Don't forget to cite where it says the Posse Comitatus Act is null and void or superceded as well, then you might have something. Until then you're doing nothing but floundering.

 

[conjur]

Corn, in this situation, imo, the President should have done everything in his power that the National Response Plan provides. All of the forecasters were saying this could be the one to wipe out New Orleans. I know he was on a "working vacation" but when, in the critical moments that this storm hit and immediately after, he spends his time campaigning for his agenda, eating cake, and playing guitar, it leaves a very cold and bitter taste in the mouths of Americans.

He had the power to waive the requirement that Governors formally request assistance and could have sent military resources into the area to help evacuate and provide aid, all without violating Posse Comitatus.