MS Surface Event today - AT liveblog

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bearxor

Diamond Member
Jul 8, 2001
6,605
3
81
So, what you're saying is, "Apple doesn't demonstrate what I want them to demonstrate during their presentations."

Just making sure I got that clarified as Apple presentations are probably about 75% demonstration and talking about what the device can actually do. I understand it doesn't do what you might want to do with it, but Apple is definitely not short on "this is what it does" during their new releases.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
Awesome, Microsoft! This is very tempting!

I like the aggressive pricing of only $749 for the 64 GB i3.

Yeah, but the 64 GB model will give you about 32 GB of actual usable storage once you include the Windows and Office installation. That might be enough for a tablet, but not a serious desktop replacement.
 

Imaginer

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
8,076
1
0
Yeah, but the 64 GB model will give you about 32 GB of actual usable storage once you include the Windows and Office installation. That might be enough for a tablet, but not a serious desktop replacement.

To some other Pro 1 and Pro 2 users out there, there have been some that run installed programs off the external USB drive / stick or microSD card if need be - in similar manner of installing programs other than in the "Program Files" folder or "Program Files (x86)" folder.

Performance isn't too drastic of a hit. I have some Steam games on a microSD card used with my Pro 2.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
454
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Docks...

This means two separate discrete devices. Compared to just simply flipping the keyboard out of the way and not forgetting that secondary discrete device attachment. (Lenovo's Yoga lines do this too)

There is a specific reason why I DIDN'T pick up the Samsung ATIV Smart PC Pro, released earlier than the original Surface Pro. It was a mechanical, clunky keyboard implementation that ultimately resulted in if I used it as a drawing slate, I have to constantly detach and set aside (along with mechanical failures that can go with it).

But, other OEMs CAN fill that needed gap (and if not already have).

I've had this argument before... all of the keyboards are sold as accessories already. I'm not saying they shouldn't have they keyboards they currently have, I'm just surprised that they haven't made a sturdier hinged keyboard for those that want it. It would make me a day 1 buyer, and wouldn't change anything about it for you.

I really like my Lenovo Helix, but I like the Surface as well. If I could get the new Surface form factor with a keyboard like the Helix I'd have the perfect device for me. I wouldn't mind paying an extra $300 for they keyboard I'm dreaming of either, it just needs to exist.
 

Roland00Address

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2008
2,196
260
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So what is going to happen next year? Move to broadwell, make it fanless, and thus make it thinner and lighter? By getting rid of the fan I wouldn't be surprised of they have space for an external lte option (then again external lte just makes everything far more complicated). If they are able to make it fanless, could they possible have two variants one with cherry trail and one with broadwell to hit a lower price point while being able to source many of the same components (screen, case, possibly ram and ssd if they go with sata instead of emmc).

I would eventually like them to make something that is a smaller form factor probably in the 300 grams range for comparison the nexus 7 2013 is 290 grams, ipad mini is 331 grams, ipad air is 469 grams, and the surface 3 is about 800 grams.
 
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bearxor

Diamond Member
Jul 8, 2001
6,605
3
81
The only way they go fanless is by using a Broadwell-Y series processor. They've held off from Y series processors this far, but I suspect we'll see multiple form factors introduced over the next year and maybe a fanless Surface Pro with a i3 Y series is in the cards there somewhere.
 

tsupersonic

Senior member
Nov 11, 2013
867
21
91
Has the Surface business even been successful? I read the 1st gen. took a huge hit, $900 million. I wonder how 2nd gen. sales did. I know the SP2 was in demand, but it didn't seem there was too much supply. I like where the hardware is going, but the market demand doesn't seem to be there. I think it all comes down to price/marketing - not much people would be willing to invest in such an expensive product that isn't popular. Contrast that with the iPad (comparing Surface/Surface 2 here) and Macbook Air which are very popular. I think the Surface is yet another Zune like device.

My feelings are mixed on the SP3. The SP2 had such a short life cycle, and there are still some problems that plague the device, that MS has yet to fix. I like my SP2, and I wish they released a thinner/lighter version with a 10"-11" display. I just feel 12" is too big. I'm looking to sell my SP2 when Apple releases a Macbook Air w/ retina display.
 

Imaginer

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
8,076
1
0
I know the SP2 was in demand, but it didn't seem there was too much supply.

Certain regions of the world had a logistics issue where there wasn't enough supply and definitely there was some domestic order and supply issues for those that did not pre-order the Surface Pro 2.

I like where the hardware is going, but the market demand doesn't seem to be there. I think it all comes down to price/marketing - not much people would be willing to invest in such an expensive product that isn't popular.

It isn't a fashion contest. I jumped and was an early adopter through both the Pro 1 and Pro 2, because it is in a form that did everything I needed, running all Windows programs on the go along with a great digitizer pen and touch options - not seen before. It is more or less function for me.

That is possibly a biggest discrepancy why I have not at all jumped on the iPad train - or Android tablets for that matter. What mattered to me, is getting a great tool that is very capable anywhere with no or little compromise. I finally got it, and surprisingly it was Microsoft that finally put all the pieces together - since their lessons and foray into Tablet/Slate PC computing with Windows XP.


Contrast that with the iPad (comparing Surface/Surface 2 here) and Macbook Air which are very popular. I think the Surface is yet another Zune like device.

Another comparision, the Zune had better DSP than the current iPod at the time, but so many are entrenched with the Apple only option mindset - that despite any headway, none was made with the Zune. It was between this and the initial (and even the second Surface RT) that finally gave Microsoft a needed, focused effort where it mattered - instead of chasing a very fickle market.


My feelings are mixed on the SP3. The SP2 had such a short life cycle, and there are still some problems that plague the device, that MS has yet to fix.

I have been tracking their social media. They have been responding to some problems via private messages to resolve them. And even if the Surface Pro 3 is announced, doesn't mean that support would stop for the previous Pro devices (firmware) and most definitely support would not stop for Windows 8.1+.

Lifecycle only matters in the hands of the end user and playing support. As long as it is capable for the intended function over the expected life, then it is still living. That is the definition of lifecycle. Not defined by market analysis or anything of the such.

I like my SP2, and I wish they released a thinner/lighter version with a 10"-11" display. I just feel 12" is too big. I'm looking to sell my SP2 when Apple releases a Macbook Air w/ retina display.

Even with the buzzword "retina", it is just a feel good word when there are already capable options out there. And much like shoe sizes, one cannot keep the manufacturing lines dedicated to each whim of a varying form factor (if one really wants a custom form - one would have to source the design, components and fabrication themselves - but for a one off device and tooling - it isn't cheap and is against the lowered cost of volume manufacturing.

I would highly encourage other OEMs to make or continue to make like minded , quality, solid devices.
 

tsupersonic

Senior member
Nov 11, 2013
867
21
91
Certain regions of the world had a logistics issue where there wasn't enough supply and definitely there was some domestic order and supply issues for those that did not pre-order the Surface Pro 2.
Really? I seem to recall the SP2 becoming available in October 2013. I know there were people who couldn't get them in November let alone December for holidays. There is no one to blame but Microsoft. The online MS store is a joke, you couldn't even order one (just listed as Out of Stock basically for a long time). Hell, even now at MS Store, every SP2 is sold out except the 512GB model.The SP2 wasn't available in online MS store until like February 20, according to WPcentral. I was very lucky to get mine when I did.

It isn't a fashion contest. I jumped and was an early adopter through both the Pro 1 and Pro 2, because it is in a form that did everything I needed, running all Windows programs on the go along with a great digitizer pen and touch options - not seen before. It is more or less function for me.
Agreed, SP2 is a good device. Didn't own a SP1, but I wanted to wait for Haswell for better battery life.

Another comparision, the Zune had better DSP than the current iPod at the time, but so many are entrenched with the Apple only option mindset - that despite any headway, none was made with the Zune. It was between this and the initial (and even the second Surface RT) that finally gave Microsoft a needed, focused effort where it mattered - instead of chasing a very fickle market.
You're speaking to a Zune HD 32 GB owner - I got it on launch day, and still have it. Serious audiophiles would just laugh at the Zune and iPod. There are much better DAP's out there that are just dedicated to music playback. It doesn't matter, Apple won that battle, and Zune (hardware) is defunct. The only thing Microsoft got out of it is the Zune music service, which paved the way for Xbox Music.

I have been tracking their social media. They have been responding to some problems via private messages to resolve them. And even if the Surface Pro 3 is announced, doesn't mean that support would stop for the previous Pro devices (firmware) and most definitely support would not stop for Windows 8.1+.

Lifecycle only matters in the hands of the end user and playing support. As long as it is capable for the intended function over the expected life, then it is still living. That is the definition of lifecycle. Not defined by market analysis or anything of the such.
Only time will tell how they treat the SP1/SP2 users. I'm not worried about support for WP8, there's a larger user base for that than Surface devices. I seriously hope Microsoft releases a "mini" version of the Pro (not running Windows RT). I definitely think lower price points will make other consumers consider the Surface.

Even with the buzzword "retina", it is just a feel good word when there are already capable options out there. And much like shoe sizes, one cannot keep the manufacturing lines dedicated to each whim of a varying form factor (if one really wants a custom form - one would have to source the design, components and fabrication themselves - but for a one off device and tooling - it isn't cheap and is against the lowered cost of volume manufacturing.

I would highly encourage other OEMs to make or continue to make like minded , quality, solid devices.
Yes, I know it's a marketing term, but the current MBA has displays w/ 1366x768/1440x900 resolution for 11"/13" respectively. That is quite pathetic for a laptop in 2014 given other market options. All I want is an OS X running MBA form factor with higher resolution.

The SP2 is still a good device, don't get me wrong. I am curious to see how popular these get in the market, after all money/market share definitely speak stronger than just a few happy customers.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
I think if you wanted serious productivity on a touchscreen device, it would have to be like 30 inches.

That is because our fingers are just too big compared to the pixel precision of a mouse cursor. A large surface changes that.

I had a surface pro for a little bit but I just couldn't imagine myself using it for heavy duty productivity. Screen was too small. And I'm psychologically used to handling touchscreen tablets a certain way and desktop PCs/laptops another.
 

Ravynmagi

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2007
3,102
24
81
I think if you wanted serious productivity on a touchscreen device, it would have to be like 30 inches.

That is because our fingers are just too big compared to the pixel precision of a mouse cursor. A large surface changes that.

I had a surface pro for a little bit but I just couldn't imagine myself using it for heavy duty productivity. Screen was too small. And I'm psychologically used to handling touchscreen tablets a certain way and desktop PCs/laptops another.

Well I think the idea here is you have a larger 12 inch screen, which puts it on par with most Ultrabooks and you set it down and attach a mouse when you really need to do some fine productivity that can't quite be accomplished with touch.
 

s44

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 2006
9,427
16
81
I've found that a good touchscreen is the equal of a mouse for anything except real-time gaming. And it's a hundred times better than the touchpad most people suffer with on most laptops.

What it doesn't replace, however, is a physical keyboard. That difference swamps all the others.
 

Ravynmagi

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2007
3,102
24
81
Website went bonkers and wouldn't take my order, so had to call them to place the order. Got the i5/256GB model with red keyboard. Now I just have to wait a month for it.
 

dagamer34

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2005
2,591
0
71
Has the Surface business even been successful? I read the 1st gen. took a huge hit, $900 million. I wonder how 2nd gen. sales did. I know the SP2 was in demand, but it didn't seem there was too much supply. I like where the hardware is going, but the market demand doesn't seem to be there. I think it all comes down to price/marketing - not much people would be willing to invest in such an expensive product that isn't popular. Contrast that with the iPad (comparing Surface/Surface 2 here) and Macbook Air which are very popular. I think the Surface is yet another Zune like device.

My feelings are mixed on the SP3. The SP2 had such a short life cycle, and there are still some problems that plague the device, that MS has yet to fix. I like my SP2, and I wish they released a thinner/lighter version with a 10"-11" display. I just feel 12" is too big. I'm looking to sell my SP2 when Apple releases a Macbook Air w/ retina display.

Few things:

1) Surface RT caused the $900 million write-down because Microsoft supposedly made way too many. Like 6 million, which is why they are *still* for sale now but the Pro 1 is not.
2) Surface 2 had supply issues over the Winter because they made too few.
3) Most of these logistical issues are because unlike the Xbox which gets a hardware SKU refresh every 3-4 years (so stock can build up without issue), these products are for sale for just a year at most. Screw up and you either make too many (RT) or too few (Surface 2).
4) Surface Pro 1 lifecycle (7 months) was shorter than Surface Pro 2 (8 months) counting from release date to release date. You are forgetting that the Surface Pro 1 was announced in June 2012, so you got used to the idea of the product 8 months before it was released.
5) Keep in mind that screen sizes are only directly comparable when you have the same aspect ratio. A 11-12" screen that's 16:9 is not the same as 12" 4:3. See it in person before you make that call, it's a large difference. For example, 7.9" 4:3 iPad mini has 50% more screen area than 7" 16:9 Nexus 7. It's not subtle.
6) I find it weird that in order to enjoy a product, it must be popular. Sounds like a bandwagon. :whiste:
 

finbarqs

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2005
3,617
2
81
as a photographer, 12" seems much easier to deal with than 10", especially with a new 3:2 aspect ratio (more photo friendly as well). The pen however, researching, and watching comparisons between wacom and the N-Trig, it seems the only problem N-Trig has was the lag. But it seems that they resolved this issue with the pro? More power making the N-Trig a serious contender? But loosing 1024 pressure points... compared to 256... Of course, the Cintiq Companion would be the ultimate, but 4 lbs, 13" @ 1920x1080 (which isn't bad also) and 2k+ price tag makes it a bit hard to chew...
 

PingviN

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2009
1,848
13
81
as a photographer, 12" seems much easier to deal with than 10", especially with a new 3:2 aspect ratio (more photo friendly as well). The pen however, researching, and watching comparisons between wacom and the N-Trig, it seems the only problem N-Trig has was the lag. But it seems that they resolved this issue with the pro? More power making the N-Trig a serious contender? But loosing 1024 pressure points... compared to 256... Of course, the Cintiq Companion would be the ultimate, but 4 lbs, 13" @ 1920x1080 (which isn't bad also) and 2k+ price tag makes it a bit hard to chew...

Looking at the videos, the pen/ink lag seem close to non-existent.
 

tsupersonic

Senior member
Nov 11, 2013
867
21
91
Few things:

1) Surface RT caused the $900 million write-down because Microsoft supposedly made way too many. Like 6 million, which is why they are *still* for sale now but the Pro 1 is not.
2) Surface 2 had supply issues over the Winter because they made too few.
3) Most of these logistical issues are because unlike the Xbox which gets a hardware SKU refresh every 3-4 years (so stock can build up without issue), these products are for sale for just a year at most. Screw up and you either make too many (RT) or too few (Surface 2).
4) Surface Pro 1 lifecycle (7 months) was shorter than Surface Pro 2 (8 months) counting from release date to release date. You are forgetting that the Surface Pro 1 was announced in June 2012, so you got used to the idea of the product 8 months before it was released.
5) Keep in mind that screen sizes are only directly comparable when you have the same aspect ratio. A 11-12" screen that's 16:9 is not the same as 12" 4:3. See it in person before you make that call, it's a large difference. For example, 7.9" 4:3 iPad mini has 50% more screen area than 7" 16:9 Nexus 7. It's not subtle.
6) I find it weird that in order to enjoy a product, it must be popular. Sounds like a bandwagon. :whiste:
1/2/3 - You still also see the Surface Pro 1 for sale - for less than $600 here and there. You would think Microsoft would know a thing or two about supply and demand. They have plenty of hardware experience through Zune, Xbox (three whole generations), computer peripherals, etc.

4 - Yes, short life cycles so far. I think they should've waited for Intel's next gen. CPU's to release the SP3. They seem to be in a rush to release their new devices, which makes you wonder, is it not selling well? Seems rumor mills are reporting they delayed the Surface Mini at the last minute. I think this device will do a lot better, as it will probably be cheaper (this speaks to consumers).

5) I've handled the Tab Pro 10.1 2014 and Note 12.2 - same screen resolutions on both devices. Much prefer the form factor of 10.1. The 12.2 is too big. All comes down to personal preference. I also complement my SP2 with an iPad Air, and Nexus 7 2013/2012. I just find the 7-8" screen size ideal for tablets.

No, the iPad Mini doesn't have 50% more screen than a Nexus 7. How are you calculating this - in a pure screen size or by resolution? Also, remember there are TWO different Nexus 7 models - the 2012 and 2013, BOTH of which are 16:10 (1280x800 for 2012 model, 1920x1200 for 2013 model).

6) No, you have it all wrong. I don't need a product to be "popular" to be using it. Why the hell would I use/used a Surface Pro 2, a Zune HD, Lumia 521 (meaning WP8), and I'm sure I have other gadgets that fit the criteria. I'm simply stating popularity is a good thing - means more market share, means that particular product is successful. I would call the first gen a flop, and haven't seen any concrete sales numbers on the 2nd gen (Surface 2 and/or Surface Pro 2). I also like competition, makes companies make better products.