MP3 Pro, AMAZING!!!

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Ameesh

Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
23,686
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sharkeeper, i think you need to take some acoustical engineering classes, tapes and records are inherntly flawed as methods of transport i dont care how expensive your deck is. the inner workings of the modern caastet tape are paltry compared to a modern cd player the basic conversion from the analog to digital signals is where tape players lose fidelity.

can we get somee EE (acoustic) people to respond to this dummy?


Double Cheers!
 

MrBond

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2000
9,911
1
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<< don't tell me you don't even listen to a song if it's encoded like at 128 kbps (regular mp3).. >>



I've seen people threaten to ban you from &quot;my FTP and the network of FTP sites I belong to&quot; for uploading less then 160kbs mp3's. I personally prefer 128 or higher, but I've got some songs that are 92kbs that sound just fine.

Of course, I'm listening to them on my PC, I rarly burn CDs from them.

Replacing my sound card with a Santa Cruz made a WORLD of difference. I really notice it with my Pink Floyd and Tool mp3's. I'm sure some better speakers would help as well, but I'm poor from buying this new PC
 

sharkeeper

Lifer
Jan 13, 2001
10,886
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<< can we get somee EE (acoustic) people to respond to this dummy? >>



Ask Harvey how he feels concerning this issue. I certainly believe he is qualified. More so than myself and certainly more than you would ever be making such comments as that.




<< sharkeeper, what about HDCD which is 20-bit? Sounds a bit better. >>



Yes it has much better definition than any CD for sure. The bells test (fade to infinity) sounds so much better than a grainy CD. CD's have to be dithered quite a bit to remove the grain; this makes them more hissy than analogue tapes! Some of the best sounding CD's were made from analogue masters, their lack of noise reduction has a gentle hiss that imposes a form of dithering signal which keeps the softest notes from the claws of digital oblivion.

Cheers!
 

Soccerman

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,378
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Sharkeeper is correct, analogue can sound better then CDs (and will appear better looking on a spectrograph).

The problem with analogue audio (whether it be tapes, or records) is that they don't stay at the quality that they come in (CDs/digital degrade less).
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
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Ameesh -- can we get somee EE (acoustic) people to respond to this dummy?

brxndxn -- << people who think CD quality is pretty poor should try listening to a crackly vinyl... or an audiocassette.. or pulling their head out of their perfecltly acoustic ass >>

The medical term for the condition is Anal-Cranial Inversion, and your statements show that both of you suffer mightily from it. I could tolerate your ignorance, which is merely a lack of information, but you're both stupid enough to be quite rude to others while demonstrating the depth of that ignorance. :Q

Welcome to Reality 101. I am an electronic design engineer, and I design audio electronics, primarily analog products for the recording studio and broadcast markets. You have heard of some of my clients, I promise.

It starts with the fact that CD's suck compared to old analog recordings, but we'll get to that at the end of this piece. As you know, CD recordings contain data -- sixteen bits @ 44 KHz x 2 channels, plus other identifying info, such as the title and location of tunes on the disk and control and formatting information. A complete CD holds about 650 MB. It's not exactly accurate, but if there are ten tunes on the disk, then about 65 MB would be enough for one tune. There simply is not enough bandwidth on a 56K line to transfer an entire CD and play it in any kind of useful time.

Enter data compression. Unlike PKZIP, which is a lossless compression scheme that allows you to retrieve all of the original information in the file, MP-3, Dolby AC-3 and other, similar formats use lossy compression. In these schemes, a computer uses principles of psychoacoustic masking eliminates parts of the sound it &quot;thinks&quot; you can't hear under the louder parts of the sound.

Here's a clue. I belong to a couple of professional audio groups. At one meeting, we ran a CD through a Dolby encoder and digital delay that gave 100% accurate data with enough delay to match the output from the encoder in time. We then subtracted one output from the other. What remained was just the parts that the computer removed. Every person in that room who was experienced in recording was shocked. What we heard was a bunch of subtle subtextures, such as room echos and other audible cues that no experienced recordist would want left out of their carefully crafted mix. In other words, such schemes will never give you an exact copy of your CD.

As I said at the start, CD's suck, too, compared to original sounds. The sampling rate is way too low, and there just aren't enough bits. The inherant distortion in CD's is non harmonic. That means, unlike harmonic distortion (THD), the distortion products are out of tune with the music, which, in turn, means that human beings are far more sensitive to this kind of distortion. If that wasn't enough, unlike almost every musical sound generator, amplifier and speaker, the distortion gets worse as the music gets softer. Therefore, when it's full bore blowing your ears into distortion, it's as clean as it's going to get. In a moderately soft passage, where your ears are more sensitive to distortion, CD's are glad to give you lots more distortion.

44 KHz is an inadequate sample rate. This sampling rate was chosen based on Nyquist's theorem, which states that, to recover a given frequency, you must sample the information slightly more than twice the highest frequency. The problem is that Nyquist wasn't a musician. As you get closer to the high end of the audio spectrum, this theorem is only valid for a single, steady state tone. If you change the conditions to allow for a second tone, or to modulate the amplitude (volume) of the sine wave while it is being sampled, you have created a condition where there are literally an infinite number of possible outputs for a given sample. As a designer if analog gear, when people ask me how many bits I want, I always answer, All of them! :) No matter how many they have, I have more. :D

I used to be a professional musician, too. Music (and any art form, for that matter) transcends the medium. It isn't just counting to four and getting the notes in the right place. The subtle undertextures of a musical performance are part of the &quot;magic&quot; that moves your soul. When I turn off the scopes and meters and just kick back to play or listen, CD's don't cut it. I have CDR's in my machines, but I don't own a CD player.

If you want to hear the difference, get ahold of an old LP in good condition of something that was recorded analog, and a CD re-issue of the same thing. Cue them up so they are in sync, and switch between them. LP's win every time. Good examples would be Eagles, James Taylor, older Steely Dan and anything else with good air space in the recording.

kami -- << hmm, you haven't heard DVD-Audio have you? >>

Soccerman -- << he problem with analogue audio (whether it be tapes, or records) is that they don't stay at the quality that they come in. >>

When CD's first came out, some friends and I proposed a perfectly good way to do analog on a laser disk. It's called FM, just like your radio. FM was used for the audio in the original 12&quot; video laser disks, as well as Beta and VHS Hi-Fi, and if you don't have to deal with the problems of reaching remote locations with a broadcast, or giving up storage space to video, you can record gorgeous audio tracks that are as durable as any other laser recording. I've seen internal Sony documents that support the same idea.

There is hope on the horizon. The highest standard for the new audio only DVD (not necessarily the same thing as DVD-A) is two channels of 24 bit data @ 192 KHz with only lossless compression. At that sampling rate, it will once again matter if the analog electronics I design can do a good job of reproducing the signal.

Don't worry. It's a multi-format standard that is compatible back to current CD's, so you'll still be able to play them. Of course, once you hear the new stuff on a good system, you may not want to, anymore. We may finally be about to come out of the Audio Dark Ages. :D
 

gnoymyguy

Senior member
Mar 7, 2001
353
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Harvey

nice of you to spend the time typing such an informative piece, my audio knowledge just went up 200%:D
 

Fandu

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,341
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<< I reckon even PCM isn't good enough. It's not quite perfect and I want perfection baby! >>



Here here!!!

AC3 is better, but until each and every instrument and microphone is encoded in seperate channels, we won't have good audio quality. Plus we need to develop good lossless compression methods. MP3 is nice and all, but lossless is the way of the future.

People always talk about 'wanting CD quality', screw 44.1Khz PCM, it's garbage compared to the real thing.

BTW - Anyone checked out the new Ogg Vorbis 1.0 RC1 Decoder? Looking pretty sweet.
 

SSP

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
17,727
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Damn Harvey... MY IQ jumped 20%. :D

Thanks for the useful info. A very nice read.
 

Soccerman

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,378
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Harvey

actually, I know there are methods of storing analogue signals without degredation, the problem is simply that these systems aren't nearly as widespread as I would need to actually take full advantage of it.

For example, you could theoretically make it so that a laser has continuously variable strength (or very close), so that it doesn't burn data digitally, but rather burns the signal using AM (amplitude modulation), or of course, your method, of Frequency Modulation (though I don't know how that would be done exactly).

one thing that really gets me, is that up here in Canada, the proposed digital signal standards for digital radio would have the digital signal broadcast over FM frequencies. In other words, even though we have such a vast expanse, the CRTC didn't think about that when creating the standards, so we now have digital radio that has about the same range as typical FM radio! What a waste, becuase AM type frequencies would allow the signal to still be pretty damn good, but would also have much longer ranges..

anywho, I just carried off on a tangient.. The most interesting thing to me about fitting an analogue signal on a CD type device, is the massive potential of the amount of music you could store on a disc...
 

RSI

Diamond Member
May 22, 2000
7,281
1
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This is the most interesting thread I've read in some time, thanks for the readin', guys, Harvey especially!

Personally I think you shouldn't worry about the song quality unless you have speakers that are of high enough quality that you will be able to tell the difference. ;) I know I wouldn't be able to tell the difference with mine, I can hardly tell from CD to 128kbps MP3.
 

mackstann

Banned
Apr 17, 2001
1,013
0
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just get a 999 dollar ADAT machine, no biggie, eh?

24 bits and i think 96k (not sure about sampling rate actually...)

what an exhausting subject. i'm off to general hardware....
 

Wolfie

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,894
2
76
RSI-
One little thing I would add to that. It's not just the speakers. But it's also the system you are running those speakers on. If you have a crapy tuner then the speakers are not going to fix the problem. ;)

Harvey,
Nice piece. Finaly someone that still knows that records are still better then CD's.


I know I can still tell the difference. If you don't believe me. Test me.... hehe:)

Wolfie
 

gygheyzeus

Golden Member
May 3, 2001
1,084
0
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I'm one of those audio perfectionists. I'd rather have the real CD. It seems that in my car (I have a really high-end audio system in it), I can notice the difference between a &quot;burnt&quot; CD and an &quot;original.&quot;

Don't ask me how or why.
 

TripleJ

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2001
2,667
0
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Harvey, is this the new standard referred to as Super Audio CD? There are currently two manufacturers of the players, Sony and Panasonic I think, and they both cost an arm and a leg. They apparently sound phenominal though and could be considered worth it to some. Yay, the end of PCM is near!
 

OS

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
15,581
1
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Harvey, so you're saying that audio CDs are crappy as a playback media? Man, that must makes MP3s sound like splashing dog piss to you. ;)
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Wow!!! There's hope in the audio world. :D

Thanks to all who took the time to read all of that. Feel free to copy any of it and check it with other sources. What I really want is for those of you who haven't had much chance to hear anything better than CD's and MP-3's to take the time to listen to good sound to understand how much better music can be recorded, and how much is missing from the pathetic state we call a standard, today. If I got you thinking, then I feel like I really accomplished something. :)

Phonograph records and tape are not perfect, just different, but even with their inherent distortions, they are more musical than linear PCM, which can be compared to the way we print a photo. The sampling frequency is the equivalent of the number of dots per inch, and the bit depth is the equivalent of the grey scale. To me, CD's are like newsprint. With enough dots, and a better grey scale, the image becomes photorealistic. Similarly, with enough bits and a high enough sampling rate, the distortions are suppressed below the threshold of human perception, and the reality returns to the audio image.

I used to play for a living. Now I make tools for music makers. Digital technology is great for what we can do with it, but like a good picture, we need a lot of data to do a good job of recreating the image. For me, the most important part is the music. When it works, it is truly magic. If it doesn't work, the rest is a major jackoff.

I didn't write all of that last post just now. It took a some time, but I pulled a lot of it from some of my previous posts on the subject in various threads over the last year or more. Glad AT has a search engine. ;)
 

joohang

Lifer
Oct 22, 2000
12,340
1
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<< nice of you to spend the time typing such an informative piece, my audio knowledge just went up 200%:D >>


More like 1000% for me. :)
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
TripleJ -- << is this the new standard referred to as Super Audio CD? >>

If you're talking about the HDCD, no, that is not the same thing. That is an enhanced CD. It is theoretically better, but nowhere near the audio only DVD standard.

<< Yay, the end of PCM is near! >>

Actually, no it isn't. It's just that a DVD holds more than 4 GB, instead of 650 MB, so it can store a lot higher sampling rate (192 kHz) and a lot more bits per sample (24 bits). BTW, the second highest quality signal level will be six channels, 24 bits x 96 kHz, again with no lossy compression. I've heard 24 x 96. It's damned nice as a release medium, certainly better than 16 bits x 44.1 kHz.

OuterSquare -- << Man, that must makes MP3s sound like splashing dog piss to you. >>

Uhhh... Yup!!! Again, it isn't just that CD's and MP-3's are inaccurate. Old analog recordings are inaccurate, too. It's the way digital recordings are inaccurate that bothers me. In the hands of a skilled recordist, the end product of analog recordings was simply more musical because the nature of the distortions was more in tune with the music, itself. Therefore, if you're going to use digital methods, you have to push those distortions much lower so they don't work against the magic of the music. See my comments about non-harmonic distortion.
 

OS

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
15,581
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Harvey,

after giving it some thought, I just applied your logic to photography, something that I enjoy, and what I came up with is this.

Seeing a picture is just an approximation, it never has a shred of hope of capturing the actual event. Viewing a picture of an awe inspiring sunset off the coast of central california will never be as good as actually being there. Good photography is sometimes about minimizing that loss. We will probably never have enough technology in our lifetimes to recreate that beautiful sunset view in it's full glory.

So naturally this brings up the question, what is enough for a recording? You would need infinite bandwidth and infinite audio channels to completely recreate the experience. So an audio recording can never have a hope of being able to completely capturing the experience, when do you say it's enough?
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
OuterSquare -- Ah, but in audio, we have at least two channels. In a good playback environment, I have heard really good surround and height information from two speakers in front of me. In other words, we're talking dimensional, either sonically or visually.

In the end, the recording is produced to be it's own entity. It doesn't matter if it exactly reproduces an original event, unless that's what you want to capture.

I've personally participated in great examples of that, too. We took a friend's experimental FM recorder out to a pizza joint to record a dixieland band. The bass player was also the recording engineer for Mobile Fidelity, who used to make half speed mastered recordings. When we got back to his house and started playing back the tape, the first thing you sensed was the audiene all around you. Then we heard this squeeking noise from the wall to our right. That was the sound of the air conditioning, positioned exactly where it was relative to the microphones.

All of this came from two speakers in front of us! Pretty weird, but it worked. :)
 

SuperCyrix

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2001
2,118
0
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OMG!!! I cannot believe the people here. People are not at all impress that RCA crammed so much audio into so little space? Think of what this will do with a little firmware tweak for all those people with a 32 meg MP3 player. 17-18 songs per load! Bottom line, side by side MP3 128bit vs MP3pro 64bits, MP3pro stomps all over MP3 and does it with less space. When MP3pro allows higher bit rates, it's quality will improve even more.

I can't believe the audiophilomaniacs here. The last thing I expected was to hear somebody bring up Nyquist's theorem though it is interesting stuff. Holy chalupa baluba you guys want perfection? Let's all storm to the sound studio of america and request the recording guys to better job of insulating their room because the sound from the jet blasting off 3,000 miles away and the urinating sound of some guy 2 rooms away are introducing some disturbances at around oh......-5,000,000 db. And heck , we can take ADC to a whole new level. Will jack up the sampling rate so high and take this thing up to 8192 bits so that it will take 12 of Maxtor's new 100 gig drive in some hard core raid action to store a 3 minute song of herd of horses marching by a waterfall.