Most US Youths can't find Iraq on a Map

[Czar]

Originally posted by: scorp00
Geography is totally useless. There's no need to know it unless your going somewhere. In that instance, you pull out a map and read.

Education majors are some of the dumbest people I know in college(not all, but most). No wonder no one is getting eduated. It's one of those majors that people transfer into when they fail out of some respectable major, and they get A's and B's with no effort.

I disagree, geography seems useless when you are learning it around 8 to 9 but if you just watch world news you have to know it, and if you want to grasp whats happening in the world you have to follow the news. All linked.

 

[brxndxn]

$5 says the people that are planning on bombing it won't have a hard time finding Iraq

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: brxndxn
$5 says the people that are planning on bombing it won't have a hard time finding Iraq

remember the chinese embassy

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: scorp00
Geography is totally useless. There's no need to know it unless your going somewhere. In that instance, you pull out a map and read.

I actually agree with Czar. Geography includes much more. Most call it awareness. Of course awareness is not the same as a "1337-windoze-but-scared-of-command-line-hax0r".

Education majors are some of the dumbest people I know in college(not all, but most). No wonder no one is getting eduated. It's one of those majors that people transfer into when they fail out of some respectable major, and they get A's and B's with no effort.

No Art, Drama or Physical Education Departments?

By the way, depending upon the school district, the requirement to teach middle school and high school requires a BA in the specific field unless exit exams are passed.

 

[tcsenter]

Geography is utterly useless for having fun with the people around you it's not on a level any deeper than pure entertainment value. About as valuable as being able to do operon models or play chess as way to be "in".

You know, I've been a regular on CNN's Forums, Salon Magazine's Table Talk, and a few others, but I have never been treated to this type of mimickry-based argumentative style before I came to ATOT, one that always seems to fail miserably in 'coming-off' the way I can only presume its intended (satire or parody), and this would be the fourth time I've been treated to it.

Is this being taught now in schools as some optional way to respond to a superior argument without actually formulating any cohorent argument of your own? Its...weird!

I have to believe there is a purpose to it, but given that it always fails so miserably to make any sort of impact or point, I'll be damned if I can figure out what that purpose might be?

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl

Originally posted by: tcsenter

But they can find $100 designer jeans in the mall and they do have dad's sympathy money to purchase them...so I'd say it's a wash.

LOL! You are not far off.

This is really not funny at all, its a tragedy if you think about it. While I used to think that schools were failing to educate, I have since made a complete reversal of my opinion. The fact is, you cannot teach anything to a kid who doesn't give a flying turd, let alone entire generations of kids who don't give a flying turd, and apathy is the most daunting problem facing our schools and educators, not funding or class sizes.

I went to a pretty decent public school, in terms of academic rank and things like graduation rates, not in terms of funding or amenities. In fact, our school would likely have been condemned by today's definition of a 'disadvantaged' school. We had older books, rickety old desks, a few broken windows, water damaged ceiling tiles, cracks in the walls, an old boiler system that never worked right, so you froze your ass off in the morning hours, then sweated your ass off in the afternoon hours, among other things. However, nobody noticed or cared because our school was predominantly white, and there was no 'white victimhood' lobby to wail about the condition of our school. But that is another discussion altogether...

I distinctly remember several students who academically were just getting by, probably couldn't tell you the name of the then-current US President, but they had an encyclopedic knowledge of utterly useless sports trivia. They could tell you the names, numbers, stats, teams, years, colleges, home towns, awards, everything.

Its all about the priorities of the community, the parents, and the students, funding has little to do with it. Even in the most impoverished school systems, you can find children doing academically well. In the most well funded school systems, you can find children doing horribly.

I have all but stopped criticizing teachers and educators because I've gotten a glimpse of what they have to face day-in and day-out; children who don't give a f-ck about school, only about MTV and shopping malls and who's wearing what designer clothes and socializing between classes.

And it is NOT a teacher's responsibility or obligation to 'motivate' students who otherwise lack it, it is a parent's. Even if it were a teacher's responsibility, they will only be able to reach but a fraction of the student's who are not receiving the motivation from home, because that's where it starts.

So how do you propose fixing it? And why does it need to be fixed? Who's to say if memorizing baseball stats is worse than world geography? What makes the grind worse than the waltz?

I think you're just getting old.

If you regard both as hobbies, then you're right, neither is better. But geography is not a hobby. You need geography to understand the world and the current global issues. You need it to make decisions on where you stand on those issues. People who would take baseball stats over geography are ignorant.

You seem to imply that geography is not in anyway better than baseball stats. Saying that means you would like to see society become nothing but a bunch of mindless drones controlled by the few knowledgeable ones at the top. How can democracy work in such a society? When the people are so ignorant that they cannot decide where to stand on an issue, that society will no longer be a democracy, it will simply give the illusion that it is one.

In order to fix this problem, the whole mindset of society must change. People have to start placing more emphasis on education, not just getting higher grades, but actually learning the stuff. People need to take more interetest in both local and world politics. How do you achieve this? I don't know, I doubt anybody does. Perhaps it can't be fixed at all.

 

[SSP]

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
here is the "where is the US" question

Some Sample questions

It seems Canada did a bit better, but not by too much. I am dissapointed.

Interestingly enough, more Canadians than Americans could locate the US on the map.

Omg!!!

This is the saddest thing I've seen so far!

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: SSP

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
here is the "where is the US" question

Some Sample questions

It seems Canada did a bit better, but not by too much. I am dissapointed.

Interestingly enough, more Canadians than Americans could locate the US on the map.

Omg!!!

This is the saddest thing I've seen so far!

no this is

 

[xuanman]

along the lines of geography, i'd be curious as to a similar type survey involving world civics...questions like who is the UN Secretary General and Who is the VP of the US? I'm guessing that the American results would be something like 10% and 33% respectively.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Geography is utterly useless for having fun with the people around you it's not on a level any deeper than pure entertainment value. About as valuable as being able to do operon models or play chess as way to be "in".

You know, I've been a regular on CNN's Forums, Salon Magazine's Table Talk, and a few others, but I have never been treated to this type of mimickry-based argumentative style before I came to ATOT, one that always seems to fail miserably in 'coming-off' the way I can only presume its intended (satire or parody), and this would be the fourth time I've been treated to it.

Is this being taught now in schools as some optional way to respond to a superior argument without actually formulating any cohorent argument of your own? Its...weird!

I have to believe there is a purpose to it, but given that it always fails so miserably to make any sort of impact or point, I'll be damned if I can figure out what that purpose might be?

It only fails because your eyes are closed to alternative viewpoints. When you talked about how the schools are failing it's from a purely subjective point of view which is yours. Shared by many to be true since this viewpoint is easy because it relies on the past as it's benchmark. However it's not correct to say mathematics or anything else has more value than hip-hop studies other than to the individual in judgement. Some, maybe not on this board, would think exactly as I re-wrote your post and think you're the idiot for bothering with things like geography, because to them and thier "tribe" it has little use to them. In fact, based on the poll results, I'd say many people put MORE value on knowing who Tom Hanks is than where Iraq is. After all what American can't name a Tom Hanks movie. I appogize you felt mimicked, it was not my intention, however you write bit better than I so it fit in perfectly with the piont I was tring to make, only had change a few words and run with it.

 

[Jfur]

depressing.

 

[tcsenter]

It only fails because your eyes are closed to alternative viewpoints. When you talked about how the schools are failing it's from a purely subjective point of view which is yours. Shared by many to be true since this viewpoint is easy because it relies on the past as it's benchmark. However it's not correct to say mathematics or anything else has more value than hip-hop studies other than to the individual in judgement. Some, maybe not on this board, would think exactly as I re-wrote your post and think you're the idiot for bothering with things like geography, because to them and thier "tribe" it has little use to them.

It only rises because your toes are closed to alternative medicine. When you dreamed about how the chickens are failing it's reaching a purely subjective point of density which is yours. Shared by many to be legal since this viewpoint is traumatic because it relies on the Green Lantern as it's benchmark. However it's not cursory to say mathematics or toe jam has more value than Hippety-Hop studies other than to the circumcision in judgement. Some, maybe not on this board, would regurgitate exactly as I lamented your post and think Barney is the idiot for bothering with things like being purple, because to them and thier Ford F150 it has little use to them.

Hah, this is fun! I should try it more often. hee hee

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

It only fails because your eyes are closed to alternative viewpoints. When you talked about how the schools are failing it's from a purely subjective point of view which is yours. Shared by many to be true since this viewpoint is easy because it relies on the past as it's benchmark. However it's not correct to say mathematics or anything else has more value than hip-hop studies other than to the individual in judgement. Some, maybe not on this board, would think exactly as I re-wrote your post and think you're the idiot for bothering with things like geography, because to them and thier "tribe" it has little use to them.

It only rises because your toes are closed to alternative medicine. When you dreamed about how the chickens are failing it's reaching a purely subjective point of density which is yours. Shared by many to be legal since this viewpoint is traumatic because it relies on the Green Lantern as it's benchmark. However it's not cursory to say mathematics or toe jam has more value than Hippety-Hop studies other than to the circumcision in judgement. Some, maybe not on this board, would regurgitate exactly as I lamented your post and think Barney is the idiot for bothering with things like being purple, because to them and thier Ford F150 it has little use to them.

Hah, this is fun! I should try it more often. hee hee

Now are you one of those people who wails like a b1tch when your offended but do the same to others. I appologized and explianed my ojectionable post to you then you reply with the same. Pot kettle black and mine actully made some sence. Do you not believe in the golden rule, that's fine with me, however our discussion ends here.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl

Originally posted by: tcsenter

But they can find $100 designer jeans in the mall and they do have dad's sympathy money to purchase them...so I'd say it's a wash.

LOL! You are not far off.

This is really not funny at all, its a tragedy if you think about it. While I used to think that schools were failing to educate, I have since made a complete reversal of my opinion. The fact is, you cannot teach anything to a kid who doesn't give a flying turd, let alone entire generations of kids who don't give a flying turd, and apathy is the most daunting problem facing our schools and educators, not funding or class sizes.

I went to a pretty decent public school, in terms of academic rank and things like graduation rates, not in terms of funding or amenities. In fact, our school would likely have been condemned by today's definition of a 'disadvantaged' school. We had older books, rickety old desks, a few broken windows, water damaged ceiling tiles, cracks in the walls, an old boiler system that never worked right, so you froze your ass off in the morning hours, then sweated your ass off in the afternoon hours, among other things. However, nobody noticed or cared because our school was predominantly white, and there was no 'white victimhood' lobby to wail about the condition of our school. But that is another discussion altogether...

I distinctly remember several students who academically were just getting by, probably couldn't tell you the name of the then-current US President, but they had an encyclopedic knowledge of utterly useless sports trivia. They could tell you the names, numbers, stats, teams, years, colleges, home towns, awards, everything.

Its all about the priorities of the community, the parents, and the students, funding has little to do with it. Even in the most impoverished school systems, you can find children doing academically well. In the most well funded school systems, you can find children doing horribly.

I have all but stopped criticizing teachers and educators because I've gotten a glimpse of what they have to face day-in and day-out; children who don't give a f-ck about school, only about MTV and shopping malls and who's wearing what designer clothes and socializing between classes.

And it is NOT a teacher's responsibility or obligation to 'motivate' students who otherwise lack it, it is a parent's. Even if it were a teacher's responsibility, they will only be able to reach but a fraction of the student's who are not receiving the motivation from home, because that's where it starts.

So how do you propose fixing it? And why does it need to be fixed? Who's to say if memorizing baseball stats is worse than world geography? What makes the grind worse than the waltz?

I think you're just getting old.

I don't really know what they are substituting for education in grades 1-12 these days but I have my suspicions. I got 20 for 20 on that simplistic quiz and I can only tell you how I was educated in elementary school where I picked up most of this basic knowledge. First off by the time I started first grade I already knew how to read books the level of "Dick and Jane" since my mother took the time to teach us these things at home. At school as well as at home phonics was the basic tool used to teach us how to read.

Beginning in 2nd grade we began to learn cursive writing and were graded on penmanship. From grade 1 through grade 6 we were given a weekly spelling list to learn which generally consisted of 20 words. For history from grade 3 through 6 we were required to learn Virginia history along with US History. Geography was taught by handing us blank maps and colored pencils and we had to fill in and color the various countries as we learned about them in the class. Tests would include blank maps that we were required to label the countries we had previously learned about.

There is an example of a test to given to 6th graders in Kansas around the turn of the 19th and 20th century IIRC floating around that demonstrates just how rigorous education used to be in this country. It is not about money it is about quality and standards and that is where we have failed our children as I see it. I do not blame the 24 year old that does not know where Iraq is I blame the education system that allowed him to go through 12 years of education without learning the basics that every citizen needs to be productive in our society.

 

[T2T III]

The ignorance of the U.S. population caused me to go out and buy a World history book yesterday. Sure, most geography questions, I could answer along with some minor history questions. However, it is very good to expand your knowledge.

The book I found is a very good, and thorough book with approximately 250 pages and includes several maps to include such items as the journies that the explorers took during the 1500s. In all, this great investment only cost me $7.99 from the bargain books section at my local Border's book store.

 

[tcsenter]

Beginning in 2nd grade we began to learn cursive writing and were graded on penmanship. From grade 1 through grade 6 we were given a weekly spelling list to learn which generally consisted of 20 words.

I was getting in trouble in 1st grade because I had already learned to read and write before attending Kindergarten. I was writing cursive and the teacher said I was supposed to be learning how to print. I told her I didn't want to print because I had already done that stuff. So my parents received calls from the school all the time complaining that I wouldn't 'do what the class was doing'. haha

In 2nd grade I was tested at some private center and put into this 'gifted and talented' program ran by our school district. I thought it sucked, because NONE of my friends went there. I didn't understand why I couldn't go to school with my friends. I really felt that 'being smart' was some sort of punishment, I was being punished for being smart. So when my friends asked why I wasn't going to their school anymore, I told them I was retarded and had to go to the retarded school. My mom received calls from the school wanting to know why I told everyone I was retarded. lol!

I figured, if I had to go to this school because I was smart, then I decided I wasn't going to be smart any more. I began to deliberately do poorly and throw all my tests. It worked...hee hee! Everyone knew what I was doing, but there isn't much you can do when a kid is determined like that.

There is an example of a test to given to 6th graders in Kansas around the turn of the 19th and 20th century IIRC floating around that demonstrates just how rigorous education used to be in this country.

If its the test I believe you're referring to, that test was proven to be of unknown origin, and probably a fake. The library from which the test was supposed to be discovered states they have never seen or heard of it and there is no record of it there. They have found verified tests from that era, and they're not nearly as difficult.

 

[tcsenter]

Now are you one of those people who wails like a b1tch when your offended but do the same to others. I appologized and explianed my ojectionable post to you then you reply with the same. Pot kettle black and mine actully made some sence. Do you not believe in the golden rule, that's fine with me, however our discussion ends here.

Well! That was a reversal from your pre-edited response. What's the matter, you can't take what you dish out?

Awww.....

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Now are you one of those people who wails like a b1tch when your offended but do the same to others. I appologized and explianed my ojectionable post to you then you reply with the same. Pot kettle black and mine actully made some sence. Do you not believe in the golden rule, that's fine with me, however our discussion ends here.

Well! That was a reversal from your pre-edited response. What's the matter, you can't take what you dish out?

Awww.....

You so lost. i don't have a problem with it and I thought it was kinda cool.. until I relised how much you cried about being mimiced for your pontifications.

Then I thought what a hypocrital wuss who I have nothing to say to if he's not even offering a point to challege but goes and does the same frecken thing which he wined about.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Beginning in 2nd grade we began to learn cursive writing and were graded on penmanship. From grade 1 through grade 6 we were given a weekly spelling list to learn which generally consisted of 20 words.

I was getting in trouble in 1st grade because I had already learned to read and write before attending Kindergarten. I was writing cursive and the teacher said I was supposed to be learning how to print. I told her I didn't want to print because I had already done that stuff. So my parents received calls from the school all the time complaining that I wouldn't 'do what the class was doing'. haha

In 2nd grade I was tested at some private center and put into this 'gifted and talented' program ran by our school district. I thought it sucked, because NONE of my friends went there. I didn't understand why I couldn't go to school with my friends. I really felt that 'being smart' was some sort of punishment, I was being punished for being smart. So when my friends asked why I wasn't going to their school anymore, I told them I was retarded and had to go to the retarded school. My mom received calls from the school wanting to know why I told everyone I was retarded. lol!

I figured, if I had to go to this school because I was smart, then I decided I wasn't going to be smart any more. I began to deliberately do poorly and throw all my tests. It worked...hee hee! Everyone knew what I was doing, but there isn't much you can do when a kid is determined like that.

There is an example of a test to given to 6th graders in Kansas around the turn of the 19th and 20th century IIRC floating around that demonstrates just how rigorous education used to be in this country.

If its the test I believe you're referring to, that test was proven to be of unknown origin, and probably a fake. The library from which the test was supposed to be discovered states they have never seen or heard of it and there is no record of it there. They have found verified tests from that era, and they're not nearly as difficult.

Thanks for the heads up on the test, I was not aware of that. I did some quick looking around and found
this on Snopes. So many urban legends, so little time.

 

[Sunner]

Wohoo, 20/20, but then Im on the winning team

But frankly I found the Swedish results quite disapointing, far below what I would have expected

 

[alexruiz]

Originally posted by: bizmark
the really sad thing is that the U.S. respondents were often outperformed by respondents from Mexico, which I don't think anybody will argue has a better educational system than ours. 97% of Mexicans surveyed could find Mexico on the map. 96% could find the U.S. Very sad

of course the survey could be biased (e.g. if it was a phone survey, it only skimmed the top levels of Mexican society, meaning that only better educated people took the survey) so we can't make absolute conclusions... but I'd imagine that they tried to make it as unbiased as possible.

Think your answer again my friend, it seems you still believe the map presented by Klah......

I was educated in Mexico in a public school from a small town.... when I was in middle school I was able to identify every country in a world map with capital and flag..... heck, I even knew the most important facts about the nations..... and most of my classmates knew the basics.

Funding helps, no denial here, but the true factor to academic success is the desire of the students to learn and the ability of the educators to motive them to learn!!

I know by the results that the test was fair (Mexico placed last, USA second to last). If thay have "picked" the Mexican respondants as you suggested, we would have kicked everyone's @$$......

Alex

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Gunbuster
So is this a labeled map they used?

Heck I would have a somewhat hard time if they just handed me a map with blobs of color

If it was a labeled map then thats just really sad

Yeah, it is a tad bit misleading. If someone swaps Saudi Arabia and Iran then they've missed 2 questions without being really far off at all. If someone mistook Pakistan for Afghanistan, it's counted as just as wrong as if they had thought that Afghanistan was in South America. That said, people in the USA really ought to be able to figure out which state is NY and which state is NJ. I could see someone transposing AZ and NM or something like that, but you'd think that with as much as NY has been in the news it would be identifiable.

ZV

 

[alexruiz]

I took the survey (20/20) and found a trend. Teens in one country are more aware of what is close to them. While the Mexican teens topped the charts in locations directly related to us (location of Mexico, the USA, the pacific ocean, chritianism, etc) we did awfully in global gepgraphy (AIDs, oil, afghanistan and the worst of all, Sweden....)

By any means, sad anyways, and a poor performance by the North American countries......

 

[Zenmervolt]

However it's not correct to say mathematics or anything else has more value than hip-hop studies other than to the individual in judgement.

What the hell is wrong with a person to make them honestly believe such obvious tripe? I'm so damn sick of all these relativists who want to tell me that we shouldn't make value judgements. Do you people even realise how STUPID it is to say "It's wrong to make value judgements."? Do you not see that calling value judgements wrong is itself a VALUE JUDGEMENT? Do you people even bother with logic?

If you want to study "hip-hop studies" (what is "hip-hop studies" anyway, learning the proper pronounciations of the word "ho"?), then study "hip-hop studies". But remember that if you do that to the exclusion of more valuable areas of study such as literature, geography, history, logic and mathematics then I'm sure as hell not going to respect you or allow you to lead me.

ZV

Please note: I do not have an issue with "hip-hop studies" per-se. If such a course of study is pursued in addition to a classical education then it may prove to be of value. What one cannot do, however, is substitute that course of study for a traditional education.

 

[isildur]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Geography is utterly useless for having fun with the people around you it's not on a level any deeper than pure entertainment value. About as valuable as being able to do operon models or play chess as way to be "in".

You know, I've been a regular on CNN's Forums, Salon Magazine's Table Talk, and a few others, but I have never been treated to this type of mimickry-based argumentative style before I came to ATOT, one that always seems to fail miserably in 'coming-off' the way I can only presume its intended (satire or parody), and this would be the fourth time I've been treated to it.

Is this being taught now in schools as some optional way to respond to a superior argument without actually formulating any cohorent argument of your own? Its...weird!

I have to believe there is a purpose to it, but given that it always fails so miserably to make any sort of impact or point, I'll be damned if I can figure out what that purpose might be?

Uh oh, someone in here talking sense and reason.
<sigh>

Nope, you're not going to fit in here one bit.

"The strongetst argument against Democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter."

...and a rather strong arguement for the ignorance or just general foolishness of the American public (or people at large) can be made using nothing but ATOT posts.