Most innovative Console Manuf, through history?

[gorcorps]

Also, I find that those little embedded ridges at the base of the stick that forces it into one of the 8 directions is a really poor design. Every nintendo analog stick (other than the yellow GC C stick IIRC) has that stupid, restrictive design.

The GC stick had it to (both of them IIRC).

edit: yup
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=gamecube+controller&qpvt=gamecube+controller&FORM=Z7FD1

 

[AstroManLuca]

Yeah, the C-stick had the ridges as well:

 

[CZroe]

Nintendo did not create the d-pad. Intellivision was first there, even before game and watch. All nintendo did was make a cross instead of a disc out of it. And it's not a novel input method anyway, it's just a flat joystick.

Likewise, nintendo did not create the analog joystick in the console space - the atari 5200 had one. In the early 80s. IIRC the vectrex was also analog. Nor did they create the thumbstick - you could attach one to the 7800 dpad, and while digital, it looks almost exactly like an n64 thumbstick.

And while I know of no company before nintendo to have l/r shoulder buttons, they're hardly the first company to have buttons on the top or side of the controller.

They were first to bring force feedback to the home controller, but that still remains a novelty on a d-pad (unlike a racing wheel). One I wouldnt want to get rid of, but a gimmick nonetheless.

So when you peel back the layers, you see that nintendo did not create or innovate most of these ideas. Just popularized them, modified them slightly. They might be the first you remember having a d-pad, but they didn't come up with the idea.

Certainly Sony doesn't deserve the title for anything, but giving nintendo credit for all these things is not quite accurate.

I very particularly worded what I said *because* of the Intellivision. If Intellivision's "disc" was at all serviceable as the same thing, manufacturers would have strived to copy it all this time instead of working around Nintendo's D-pad trademark. In the same sense, I did not say that Nintendo was the first with analog controls... they were the first to standardize analog thumbsticks. Both Sony and Sega released theirs before the N64 was even on the market and thy had PC-like analog flight-sticks too. Heck, Atari had the paddle controllers on the 2600. Are we going to equate those with THUMBsticks too? Their NES controllers were still a revolution. They were made for fast, responsive, thumb-centric gameplay while competitors like Atari kept ignorantly trying to push the joystick as a superior alternative (see the commercial where they diss the R.O.B. 5200 or XE, IIRC). My only point about the shoulder buttons was that it was yet another thing Sony borrowed from Nintendo's design and just doubled. Nintendo is responsible for bringing every single one of those innovations that we expect on a modern controller to the mainstream console world. It doesn't matter that controllers like the Space Orb 360 or the Sidewinder Freestyle Pro (I owned both) did some things first.

 

[smartpatrol]

Microsoft weren't what I'd consider "innovative", but they brought advancements that were SORELY lacking in consoles:

- HDD (okay, PS2 had one that a whopping one game made use of)
- downloadable game demos
- robust online gaming match-making system
- free (to the game companies) hosting of all online content and game servers
- DLC/micro transactions
- online gamer profiles with achievements and gamer score
- XBLA games and indie games
- custom soundtracks and media streaming abilities

So while I don't consider them to be very innovative, I still think they have contributed more to console gaming in the last decade than Sony and Nintendo combined.

 

[BD2003]

I very particularly worded what I said *because* of the Intellivision. If Intellivision's "disc" was at all serviceable as the same thing, manufacturers would have strived to copy it all this time instead of working around Nintendo's D-pad trademark. In the same sense, I did not say that Nintendo was the first with analog controls... they were the first to standardize analog thumbsticks. Both Sony and Sega released theirs before the N64 was even on the market and thy had PC-like analog flight-sticks too. Heck, Atari had the paddle controllers on the 2600. Are we going to equate those with THUMBsticks too? Their NES controllers were still a revolution. They were made for fast, responsive, thumb-centric gameplay while competitors like Atari kept ignorantly trying to push the joystick as a superior alternative (see the commercial where they diss the R.O.B. 5200 or XE, IIRC). My only point about the shoulder buttons was that it was yet another thing Sony borrowed from Nintendo's design and just doubled. Nintendo is responsible for bringing every single one of those innovations that we expect on a modern controller to the mainstream console world. It doesn't matter that controllers like the Space Orb 360 or the Sidewinder Freestyle Pro (I owned both) did some things first.

We can both tap dance and bend around definitions all day to suit our points. In either case, bringing someone else's innovation to the masses isn't my definition of an innovative company. There's worth in that, but it should be recognized for what it is.

I can however wholeheartedly agree that Sony is hardly on the list of innovators for just about anything. I personally think we'd have been better off with Sega instead of Sony as a real competitor for the past decade and a half.

 

[CZroe]

The fact that you put the N64 controller design above the dualshock design discredits everything you say. The N64 controller had some nice features not seen before, but it was a horrendous... uncomfortable... TERRIBLE design. Sony took all the buttons the N64 had and put them all in easy to reach locations in a comfortable to play position. You didn't have to switch hand positions to use the d-pad vs. stick like on the N64.

I remember playing Ape Escape with dual sticks, and it was fantastic. Absolutely 100% designed for that kind of controller from the ground up. Not sure what you mean about Sony not designing it properly, but it sounds like you're just a sony hater. Up until the 360 controller Sony had (IMO) the best controller.

You are letting your bias show. The N64 controller was designed like it was for a reason. It was experimental and they wanted to design it around the new analog thumbstick while, at the same time, maintaining a traditional digital design to fall back to, hence, three handles. Was it awkward and weird? Yes. Uncomfortable? Sometimes. Able to be improved on? Certainly. Sega and Microsoft adopted and improved on it while Sony just fit it where they could. Some games designed for using it that way like Katamati Damacy do exist, but they don't vindicate the "design" choice. If you're still not sure what I mean, let me spell it out: Sony didn't "design" the DualShock as a DualShock. They designed it as a standard digital-only controller with two handles. Nintendo's design influenced them just enough to stick on a couple sticks and FF motors with NO redesigning. To call it a "design" is an insult to engineers (OK, I'm exaggerating). Just like Coke Classic, they don't dare change it now because people have become attached to it.

 

[CZroe]

Also, I find that those little embedded ridges at the base of the stick that forces it into one of the 8 directions is a really poor design. Every nintendo analog stick (other than the yellow GC C stick IIRC) has that stupid, restrictive design.

I disagree. I hate trying to turn at full tilt on WipEout PurE on the PSP and finding that I'm nosing up or down inadvertently. It messes with me in many games. It gives an element of digital precision to the analog controls (perfect eight-way extremes).

 

[BD2003]

You are letting your bias show. The N64 controller was designed like it was for a reason. It was experimental and they wanted to design it around the new analog thumbstick while, at the same time, maintaining a traditional digital design to fall back to, hence, three handles. Was it awkward and weird? Yes. Uncomfortable? Sometimes. Able to be improved on? Certainly. Sega and Microsoft adopted and improved on it while Sony just fit it where they could. Some games designed for using it that way like Katamati Damacy do exist, but they don't vindicate the "design" choice. If you're still not sure what I mean, let me spell it out: Sony didn't "design" the DualShock as a DualShock. They designed it as a standard digital-only controller with two handles. Nintendo's design influenced them just enough to stick on a couple sticks and FF motors with NO redesigning. To call it a "design" is an insult to engineers (OK, I'm exaggerating). Just like Coke Classic, they don't dare change it now because people have become attached to it.

It may have been a dirty, unimaginative hack job, but I'd take it any day over that horrendous n64 controller.

 

[smartpatrol]

I disagree. I hate trying to turn at full tilt on WipEout PurE on the PSP and finding that I'm nosing up or down inadvertently. It messes with me in many games. It gives an element of digital precision to the analog controls (perfect eight-way extremes).

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Those ridges weren't the problem with the N64 controller. IMO the problem was that the analog stick on the N64 controller was a cheap piece of shit. Everybody I know has at least one controller with a gimped analog stick that lost its springiness and veers off in some random direction. Every Goldeneye session was preceded by a race to grab the good controllers

The Gamecube's analog stick, OTOH, was excellent. I wish Sony and MS would copy it.

 

[CZroe]

Microsoft weren't what I'd consider "innovative", but they brought advancements that were SORELY lacking in consoles:

- HDD (okay, PS2 had one that a whopping one game made use of)
- downloadable game demos
- robust online gaming match-making system
- free (to the game companies) hosting of all online content and game servers
- DLC/micro transactions
- online gamer profiles with achievements and gamer score
- XBLA games and indie games
- custom soundtracks and media streaming abilities

So while I don't consider them to be very innovative, I still think they have contributed more to console gaming in the last decade than Sony and Nintendo combined.

I own an Atari GameLine and Satellaview BSX and I take issue with your "game demos" bit. I also had a profile and stats on X-Band for SNES and Genesis (online matchmaking with direct-dial to competitors is still superior for fighting games). Oh, and a lot more PS2 games used the HDD. It stopped being standard on MS consoles before Sony made it standard on theirs. Because the Wii doesn't have one, that leaves Sony as the only manufacturer with a standard HDD. I wouldn't say that MS did much by pushing it back when it wasn't useful for much more than game saves and custom soundtracks if it's still not standard today.

 

[BD2003]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Those ridges weren't the problem with the N64 controller. IMO the problem was that the analog stick on the N64 controller was a cheap piece of shit. Everybody I know has at least one controller with a gimped analog stick that lost its springiness and veers off in some random direction. Every Goldeneye session was preceded by a race to grab the good controllers

The Gamecube's analog stick, OTOH, was excellent. I wish Sony and MS would copy it.

Let's also not forget the dreaded "sticky buttons", which plagued both the n64 and GC controllers. That n64 controller was a real POS. The GC one was an improvement but the c stick felt weird and the buttons were all over the damn place.

IMO they haven't made a decent stock controller since the SNES, which is still the best digital pad ever made.

 

[CZroe]

It may have been a dirty, unimaginative hack job, but I'd take it any day over that horrendous n64 controller.

I'd take the N64 controller over the DualShock for N64 games and the DualShock over the N64 controller for most modern console games. N64 games were designed for it, hence, no taking your hand off to reach the D-pad in an analog game. Mapping it to a DualShock wouldn't work for most games due to the C-buttons only serving as axes in some games (usually action buttons). Just like the DualShock is better for Ape Escape and Katamari, the N64 controller is better for Zelda, Starfox, and 6-button arcade fighters. When games are designed around the controller, you want the right controller and not just your favorite.

 

[CZroe]

Let's also not forget the dreaded "sticky buttons", which plagued both the n64 and GC controllers. That n64 controller was a real POS. The GC one was an improvement but the c stick felt weird and the buttons were all over the damn place.

IMO they haven't made a decent stock controller since the SNES, which is still the best digital pad ever made.

I have to agree about the SNES' D-pad. I play Tetris Attack/Panel de Pon at world-class levels and I found that even the Ascii-pad, which is seemingly identical, doesn't have the accuracy for high-speed directional input. The N64 controller uses the same part as the SNES but they needed to be "broken in" before they were serviceable even for fighting games.

 

[BD2003]

I'd take the N64 controller over the DualShock for N64 games and the DualShock over the N64 controller for most modern console games. N64 games were designed for it, hence, no taking your hand off to reach the D-pad in an analog game. Mapping it to a DualShock wouldn't work for most games due to the C-buttons only serving as axes in some games (usually action buttons). Just like the DualShock is better for Ape Escape and Katamari, the N64 controller is better for Zelda, Starfox, and 6-button arcade fighters. When games are designed around the controller, you want the right controller and not just your favorite.

I've played those games on an emulator with a dualshock and I found it to generally be a better experience than the n64 controller. You have to configure it slightly different for games that use the d-pad, but it works very well in general.

 

[smartpatrol]

I own an Atari GameLine and Satellaview BSX and I take issue with your "game demos" bit. I also had a profile and stats on X-Band for SNES and Genesis (online matchmaking with direct-dial to competitors is still superior for fighting games). Oh, and a lot more PS2 games used the HDD. It stopped being standard on MS consoles before Sony made it standard on theirs. Because the Wii doesn't have one, that leaves Sony as the only manufacturer with a standard HDD. I wouldn't say that MS did much by pushing it back when it wasn't useful for much more than game saves and custom soundtracks if it's still not standard today.

I said features that were "sorely lacking". Not features that had never been done on a console. My whole point is that MS deserve some credit for implementing proper, widespread, robust online content to consoles. Features that had only been done half-assed and were sparsely used prior to that.

I'd be surprised if even 5% of US/EU PS2 owners ever owned the HDD or played a game online. And of the ones who did, the vast majority likely only used it for FF XI.

Contrast that with Xbox, where Live was THE killer feature that set it apart. Do you honestly think anybody would've given a crap about a Microsoft console unless it had something that the others lacked?

 

[AstroManLuca]

I've played those games on an emulator with a dualshock and I found it to generally be a better experience than the n64 controller. You have to configure it slightly different for games that use the d-pad, but it works very well in general.

Yeah, the N64 controller was bad. Always broke too; I've never used an N64 controller whose analog stick wasn't looser than a $5 hooker.

I don't really dislike the GCN controller though. Sure it had wonky buttons but the sticks were pretty good and I find it fairly comfortable. It does have the distinction of being the BEST controller available across three console generations - it's better for N64 games than the N64 controller, it's obviously the best for GCN games, and (when available) it's also the best option for the Wii.

 

[BD2003]

Yeah, the N64 controller was bad. Always broke too; I've never used an N64 controller whose analog stick wasn't looser than a $5 hooker.

I don't really dislike the GCN controller though. Sure it had wonky buttons but the sticks were pretty good and I find it fairly comfortable. It does have the distinction of being the BEST controller available across three console generations - it's better for N64 games than the N64 controller, it's obviously the best for GCN games, and (when available) it's also the best option for the Wii.

Yeah, I don't really despise the GC controller the same way I do the n64 controller, but I'd still take a dual shock over any nintendo controller, even for nintendo games. There's nothing a GC or Wii classic controller can do that a dual shock can't do better.

 

[Tom]

Only in the very beginning they did but after that they did not innovate at all and that's why they're not around any more.

Guess you've never heard of the Atari Jaguar ? Or Lynx ? As well as innovating the market as it exists today.

And I include the Atari 800 and Atari ST as well because even though they were computers, they were fantastic game consoles too.

 

[BD2003]

Guess you've never heard of the Atari Jaguar ? Or Lynx ? As well as innovating the market as it exists today.

And I include the Atari 800 and Atari ST as well because even though they were computers, they were fantastic game consoles too.

The only innovative thing about the jaguar, and to a lesser extent, the lynx, was how god awful they were. I never thought it was possible for a console to have almost zero redeeming qualities until I saw the jaguar.

 

[purbeast0]

The only innovative thing about the jaguar, and to a lesser extent, the lynx, was how god awful they were. I never thought it was possible for a console to have almost zero redeeming qualities until I saw the jaguar.

jaguar's controller was the most innovative controller ever!

 

[smartpatrol]

The only innovative thing about the jaguar, and to a lesser extent, the lynx, was how god awful they were. I never thought it was possible for a console to have almost zero redeeming qualities until I saw the jaguar.

Atari came up with an innovative way of determining how many "bits" their system was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Jaguar

In a last ditch effort to revive the Jaguar, Atari Corp. tried to play down the other two consoles by proclaiming the Jaguar was the only "64-bit" system. This claim is questioned by some,[13] because the CPU (68000) and GPU executed a 32-bit instruction-set, but sent control signals to the 64-bit graphics co-processors (or "graphics accelerators"). Atari Corp.'s position was that the mere presence of 64-bit ALUs for graphics was sufficient to validate the claim. Design specs for the console allude to the GPU or DSP being capable of acting as a CPU, leaving the Motorola 68000 to read controller inputs. In practice, however, many developers used the Motorola 68000 to drive gameplay logic.

Atari really paved the way for Sony and Ken Kutaragi to spew amazing amounts of bullshit hype regarding their console's power. That's what I call innovation!

 

[BD2003]

Despite it being a total POS, at least it was served a purpose to it's competition and showing exactly what not to do.

That being said, I'd really like to see someone else enter the market. Particularly apple enabling some form of gaming on the apple TV. Not so much because I'd actually be interested in that platform, but it would definitely set a fire under the ass of the big three in terms of software pricing, digital distribution and openness of the platform.

 

[AstroManLuca]

The only innovative thing about the jaguar, and to a lesser extent, the lynx, was how god awful they were. I never thought it was possible for a console to have almost zero redeeming qualities until I saw the jaguar.

eh probably not as bad as the intellivision, colecovision, and CD-i

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Live isn't just "playing games online" it is a lot more than that, which has now become a standard for all other online services.

oh and since you seem to have missed it above I'll quote it again...

Oh, you're sooooo right. I love logging onto my game system and being bombarded with ads for stupid games, movies, promotions and music that I would never look twice at. Oh and how about that innovative avatar? Yeah, now THAT is innovation! Oh, cross game chat you say? Been able to do that since the 90's on PC....TRULY INNOVATIVE! Game demos are innovation now, really? You guys are lost in your own egos, seriously. Live is the biggest turd in gaming. $60 a year for cross gaming chat, YAY!!!! Where do I sign up!!!??? /end sarcasm

 

[BD2003]

eh probably not as bad as the intellivision, colecovision, and CD-i

I remember enjoying the intellivision and colecovision at friends houses when I was a little kid. They were unremarkable but not terrible. The Nes obviously blew them away shortly thereafter.

I also remember being rather impressed by some golf game I saw on the cd-i when it first came out, with live commentary and all. I'd definitely never seen anything like it before. The FMV actually looked like video and not that grainy sega CD crap. It of course was a terrible system, but it was at least a little remarkable at it's time.

The jaguar was nothing but trash. I remember the bundled game with the morphing spaceship was just retarded compared to the awesomeness of starfox.