davmat787
Diamond Member
Or due to racism. It is difficult to have a conversation in regards to this problem without some people going off the deepend spouting accusations of racism, when it is nothing of the sort.
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Most Illegal Immigrant Families Collect Welfare
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Or due to racism. It is difficult to have a conversation in regards to this problem without some people going off the deepend spouting accusations of racism, when it is nothing of the sort.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Racism is the AK-47 of political arguments. It's not sophisticated, it's cheap, but it is remarkably effective and lasts just about forever.
Zebo
Elite Member
Nothing really curious about it it's about cheap labor. Taxes have gone down for those who make the rules AND they get cheap labor/union busting for jobs they can't off shore. Win win. It's no accident Chamber of Commerce, real republicans, Republicans who write $10,000 dinner checks has been pimping amnesty for years.
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davmat787
Diamond Member
Odd considering your proximity to the France-Algerian conflicts and the colonization issue, which is much more recent than what you refer too. How is that working out for you guys?
I wonder if Frances history with colonization has resulted in more indigenous deaths than the US has caused with its Native Americans?
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Actually we do have those obligations. It's part of our heritage, those kinds of people built the nation we inherited, and died and still die defending it.
The conflict s nature was somewhat different since
Algeria is distinct from France, while the US was created
out of natives indians expropriation by force...
As for the death statistics, dont know for the US ,
but for Algeria, seems that the population was reduced
from 5-6 millions in 1830 to 1.9 millions in 1870, which
surely qualifiate the french invasion as a genocidal one...
I think you misunderstand my point, Fern. Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear earlier when I offered that
I'll clarify-
Apparently, they think that a lower level of affluence among the vast majority of Americans will suffice, and seek to make it that way by starving the various social programs currently in existence with republican initiatives to do so, and use sentiment against illegal immigrants and their citizen children as a means to get the rest of us to accept that.
I haven't defended illegal immigrants in the slightest, either, but I do defend their citizen children. They *are* citizens, and as such deserve all the benefits of citizenship enjoyed by the rest of us. Whether they should or shouldn't be is immaterial- they *are* citizens.
All the usual raving about taxes misses the real issues behind our current malaise, issues arising from our acceptance of the Aristocracy's "conservative" messaging and our whole conceptualization of corporate governance, ownership, and standing wrt corporate actions.
Prior to the Reagan era, the US had a protected economy where our primitive conceptualizations actually worked because capitalists were basically forced to hire Americans to do business in this country. Unions were also strong, and the income distribution curve was much flatter than today. We also engaged in more redistribution of income thru more progressive federal taxes and relatively low taxes levied in other ways.
American workers had standing in the workplace and in the govt thru the survivor elements of the New Deal. They were protected in no small way.
As we shifted to a less protected economy, to the global economy, we didn't account for the fact that domestic income sourcing would change radically in the process, from work to investment, and that the vast majority of Americans have little to no investments. At a time when top tier incomes grew enormously at the expense of American jobs, we cut taxes at the top when we should have been raising them. When we should have been accepting of a more redistributive model of income, we actually went the other way- after tax income has shifted tremendously to the top as American jobs have stagnated and disappeared.
We papered it over with debt, borrowing at a personal and governmental level, borrowing from the people who increasingly had a bigger share of national income and from their foreign business partners as well.
I'll agree that most liberal politicians are pretty clueless, in large part because they've accepted the memes of republicans, actually moved considerably to the Right of their modern New Deal roots.
If all the illegal labor in this country went home tomorrow, our true fiscal position wouldn't change much at all, because the vast majority of them work & pay regressive taxes of all kinds. As a group, they contribute SS taxes that they'll never collect on. Nor would the jobs picture change tremendously, because capitalists would simply offshore even more production.
Illegals come here to work. The only practical way to stop them is to prevent them from obtaining employment, which would be fairly simple if we were to adopt a jobs hotline system and database, much like the NICS system for firearms. The govt already has most of the information necessary, but it's not organized in a way intended to prevent the employment of illegals. American business luvs illegal labor, not just because they're cheap, but because as illegals they have no rights, and they know it, act accordingly. There would be no excuse for hiring illegals, no plausible deniability, so business interests would oppose any truly effective measures like that tooth and nail.
And it's not like the conservative aristocracy actually opposes the welfare state, either- they need it to advance their economic agenda, and they've succeeded in shifting most of the burden off on the dwindling middle class while loaning the govt the money to cover the difference... And, really, who doesn't like US govt securities? As the safest investment in the world, they form the backbone of any great portfolio...
I'll clarify-
Apparently, they think that a lower level of affluence among the vast majority of Americans will suffice, and seek to make it that way by starving the various social programs currently in existence with republican initiatives to do so, and use sentiment against illegal immigrants and their citizen children as a means to get the rest of us to accept that.
I haven't defended illegal immigrants in the slightest, either, but I do defend their citizen children. They *are* citizens, and as such deserve all the benefits of citizenship enjoyed by the rest of us. Whether they should or shouldn't be is immaterial- they *are* citizens.
All the usual raving about taxes misses the real issues behind our current malaise, issues arising from our acceptance of the Aristocracy's "conservative" messaging and our whole conceptualization of corporate governance, ownership, and standing wrt corporate actions.
Prior to the Reagan era, the US had a protected economy where our primitive conceptualizations actually worked because capitalists were basically forced to hire Americans to do business in this country. Unions were also strong, and the income distribution curve was much flatter than today. We also engaged in more redistribution of income thru more progressive federal taxes and relatively low taxes levied in other ways.
American workers had standing in the workplace and in the govt thru the survivor elements of the New Deal. They were protected in no small way.
As we shifted to a less protected economy, to the global economy, we didn't account for the fact that domestic income sourcing would change radically in the process, from work to investment, and that the vast majority of Americans have little to no investments. At a time when top tier incomes grew enormously at the expense of American jobs, we cut taxes at the top when we should have been raising them. When we should have been accepting of a more redistributive model of income, we actually went the other way- after tax income has shifted tremendously to the top as American jobs have stagnated and disappeared.
We papered it over with debt, borrowing at a personal and governmental level, borrowing from the people who increasingly had a bigger share of national income and from their foreign business partners as well.
I'll agree that most liberal politicians are pretty clueless, in large part because they've accepted the memes of republicans, actually moved considerably to the Right of their modern New Deal roots.
If all the illegal labor in this country went home tomorrow, our true fiscal position wouldn't change much at all, because the vast majority of them work & pay regressive taxes of all kinds. As a group, they contribute SS taxes that they'll never collect on. Nor would the jobs picture change tremendously, because capitalists would simply offshore even more production.
Illegals come here to work. The only practical way to stop them is to prevent them from obtaining employment, which would be fairly simple if we were to adopt a jobs hotline system and database, much like the NICS system for firearms. The govt already has most of the information necessary, but it's not organized in a way intended to prevent the employment of illegals. American business luvs illegal labor, not just because they're cheap, but because as illegals they have no rights, and they know it, act accordingly. There would be no excuse for hiring illegals, no plausible deniability, so business interests would oppose any truly effective measures like that tooth and nail.
And it's not like the conservative aristocracy actually opposes the welfare state, either- they need it to advance their economic agenda, and they've succeeded in shifting most of the burden off on the dwindling middle class while loaning the govt the money to cover the difference... And, really, who doesn't like US govt securities? As the safest investment in the world, they form the backbone of any great portfolio...
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English, Irish, German, Swedes, Chinese, Vietnamese.
Every large influx of immigrants has led to growth and prosperity, and was attacked at the time by people who thought "immigrants" are bad for us.
The same thing is happening now with Mexican immigrants, it's a big net plus for us.
Every large influx of immigrants has led to growth and prosperity, and was attacked at the time by people who thought "immigrants" are bad for us.
The same thing is happening now with Mexican immigrants, it's a big net plus for us.
Yes but we did not have the modern welfare state we do now.
I want more people to come to the united states from all over the world.
Some come to work and some come to take advantage (its human nature, I don't blame them). But we have to be aware of it to make sure people don't take advantage of our system that we have.
Hmmm - I am latino and a legal immigrant...and I had not perceived any racism until you posted...
I don't see anything else but people who don't want illegal outsiders to be the leeches of their home's social system. I don't see anything racist about that...it does not matter if the outsiders are white, black, mulato, asian, latino, blue, green or martians.
davmat787
Diamond Member
Are you referring to illegal, legal, or all immigrants? Do you really think the vietnamese legal immigrant with the lawn care business or the legal korean immigrant who opened up a teryaki joint is only helping the rich who are taking advantage of them?
Fern
Elite Member
The Social Security Administration DID develop and advertise a database. Upon receiving the emploment forms from a perspective employee, the employer could verify the SS# provided.
Last I heard this was to be discontinued. The IRS has been heavily emphasizing that this database should NOT be relied upon. It's not because the database was inaccurate. It's because of resulting lawsuits by the perspective employee (or some group on their behalf) claiming racial discrimination.
So, IMO what we need is legal reform to empower employers with the ability to refuse illegals without fear of lawsuits counterproductive to our nation's laws.
Fern
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rudder
Lifer
I think there are quite a few Asian members... I don't see them being run off.
Being of the opinion that leftists like illegal immigration because it provides them with a large voting block... is not racist. U.S. just happens to share a border with a poor country (which borders other poor countries). just so happens these people are not white. trying to stop the influx of illegal workers is not xenophobia and not racism. Sorry to burst your bubble.
making them illegal in the first place is xenophobic.
Because liberals have to play the race card when they cannot argue logically on an issue.
There is no legal basis for completely open borders. Try getting into Mexico from the southern border and let me know how that goes.
The only way to deflect their ludicrous position on the issue to try and discredit the opposition.
I have no problem deporting a Russian who over stays a visa either.
shortylickens
No Lifer
Try to ignore them.
Like so many other ignorant people, he clamped on to a word he doesn't actually understand and he repeats it ad infinitum cuz he thinks it makes him smart.
For a while the P&N regulars used words like Neocon, hippie, fascist, nazi, communist and so on.
Xenophobia is just the new catch phrase when somebody cant come up with an intelligent argument themselves.
Back to the "Voter Fraud" meme, as if it has any validity. It does have a certain pizazz for lesser intellects, I'm sure- but it's kinda like believing in Bigfoot.
Better to believe in lies when they affirm your pre-existing beliefs than to seek the truth, huh?
1prophet
Diamond Member
That's a good point, except it will be struck down as discriminatory,
no matter how careful you are since the majority of illegal aliens are of Hispanic origin.
http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/aclu-sues-behalf-fremont-residents-block-discriminatory-law
http://sadhillnews.com/2010/09/03/arizona-colleges-sued-for-checking-green-cards
Dammed if you do dammed if you don't.Arizona colleges accused of immigrant discrimination
Before this year, Phoenix-area community colleges asked legal immigrants to show a green card before hiring them. The Justice Department calls the policy 'document abuse' and seeks damages.
September 04, 2010|By David G. Savage, Tribune Washington Bureau
Employers who hire illegal immigrants can be fined, but the Obama administration warned this week that they also can be fined for asking legal immigrants to show their green cards before hiring them.
The Justice Department's civil rights division sued the Maricopa County Community Collegesin Arizona, seeking damages from schools for having "intentionally committed document abuse discrimination."
Prior to this year, the local colleges in the Phoenix area asked job applicants who were not U.S. citizens to show a driver's license, a Social Security card and their permanent resident card, commonly called a green card.
The Justice Department said a valid driver's license and a Social Security card are usually sufficient to show that a person is authorized to work. Requesting a green card amounts to "immigration-related employment discrimination," said Thomas E. Perez, the assistant attorney general for civil rights.
Federal law forbids treating "authorized workers differently during the hiring process based on their citizenship status," Perez said. He said the department's Office of Special Counsel would bring legal actions against employers who impose "unnecessary and discriminatory hurdles to employment for work-authorized noncitizens."
Amid the fierce controversy over immigration, the Obama administration has launched three lawsuits this summer to protect the rights of Latinos and legal immigrants all three targeting Arizona.
In July, the administration successfully blocked Arizona's law that authorized state and local police to check the immigration status of persons who were arrested. On Thursday, it sued Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio seeking documents that could show he has illegally targeted Latinos in the course of his immigration sweeps.
The suit against the Maricopa community colleges, announced Monday, and could affect employers across the nation.
"Employers are getting very mixed messages from the government," said Jessica Vaughan, a policy analyst with the Center for Immigration Studies.
On one hand, employers have been told they need to do more to verify that their workers are legal and authorized to work in the United States. Federal immigration law says hiring "an unauthorized alien" can result in fines of up to $3,000 per worker. However, another provision of the same law bars employers from requesting "more or different documents" than are needed to prove a noncitizen's legal status.
In the Maricopa college case, the Justice Department said it wanted "full remedial relief" for 247 noncitizens who applied for jobs with the community college district between August 2008 and January of this year, plus a civil penalty of $1,100 for each of them.
"We are extremely disappointed by the Justice Department's action. We had no intent to discriminate against any foreign national, and we feel we have been singled out for the maximum penalty under the law," said Charles Reinebold, a spokesman for the community colleges. "There was no actual harm here. This was a paperwork error, and we revised it after it was brought to our attention."
Vaughan said she was "very surprised the administration would resort to a lawsuit. In the past, the emphasis has been on mediation to resolve these issues."
But others applauded the administration's move to enforce the anti-discrimination parts of the immigration law.
Gening Liao, a lawyer for the National Immigration Law Center in Los Angeles, said the law itself is clear.
"If you bring in a driver's license and a Social Security card, those documents are sufficient. Employers are prohibited from asking for extra documents or different documents," she said. "This is blatant discrimination, and we get calls about it all the time. We hope to see more lawsuits like this."
http://www.agthelaw.com/index.php?o...a&catid=7:immigration-international&Itemid=24
The Federal government needs to step up to the plate and put forth an ironclad way for employers to legally screen potential hires without running afoul of the law.
The burden of proof and responsibility for eligibility should be on the federal government and not on employers who comply with the law.
It has no problem putting people on a no fly list and take full responsibility, why can't it tell an employer the particular individual is on a no-hire list and then the individual can sue the government if it believes the information is in error and must be changed.
rudder
Lifer
Lesser intellect... bigfoot... that was quite humorous. This is not about voter fraud although I can see where people of diminished intellect may spout that meme. This is about a large block of the population being dependent on the government for handouts. This is about maintaining a class of people who are indentured servants that will vote for the politicians that promise the most entitlements. I know, you have to think beyond your little mind. There are 12-20 million illegal immigrants. They will not be deported. There will eventually be some sort of amnesty but these people who are illegal immigrants now will not then be suddenly thrust into the middle class. Being largely unskilled laborers, they will have to compete with new illegal immigrants who are coming through our very porous border.
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