Most heinous use of WMD in history

[JulesMaximus]

It's WMV now....

Weapon of Mass Vagina?

 

[BoomerD]

It's sad how Americans feel that everyone in a foreign country must be supporting a war effort.

Waidaminit...are you implying that not everyone in America supported George Bush's war in Iraq?

Weapon of Mass Vagina?

I think I dated her when I was young...

 

[Kanalua]

Most heinous (hatefully or shockingly evil)? I don't think Hiroshima/Nagasaki were hateful or shockingly evil.

 

[Orsorum]

This was debated by Grasshopper27 and myself about seven years ago in this forum. He won, and I agree with him now. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings saved millions of lives, Japanese, American, and Russian. No ifs, ands, or buts. Read up on the subject and the alternatives to dropping the bombs.

 

[Greenman]

Who do we call about sewage leaks from P&N? We're going to need a truck and a hazmat crew for this one.

 

[Orsorum]

Who do we call about sewage leaks from P&N? We're going to need a truck and a hazmat crew for this one.

You're gonna need a bigger truck.

 

[BoomerD]

You're gonna need a bigger truck.

That's not a truck...THIS is a truck...

 

[Printer Bandit]

the atomic trucker:

http://www.vbs.tv/watch/motherboard/the-atomic-trucker

 

[Jadow]

BS, they attacked us, F-Them, you hit me, I hit back 1000x harder bltch!

We should bomb them again right now just to tell the world NEVER FUCK WITH US, beause 70 years later, WE WILL STILL BE FUCKING YOU IN THE ASS!

 

[TechAZ]

BS, they attacked us, F-Them, you hit me, I hit back 1000x harder bltch!

We should bomb them again right now just to tell the world NEVER FUCK WITH US, beause 70 years later, WE WILL STILL BE FUCKING YOU IN THE ASS!

That actually made me laugh, IRL, loud.

 

[AznAnarchy99]

It's not like the Japanese were innocent victims here. They devastated Eastern Asia with their horrendous campaigns, slaughtering Chinese and Koreans, slavery of POWs and nonJapanese...

Yup. Ever wonder why every Asian country hates Japan until this day?

 

[davmat787]

the atomic trucker:

http://www.vbs.tv/watch/motherboard/the-atomic-trucker

Thanks for the link, very interesting and I love a good short documentary.

 

[Mursilis]

Yes, Japan was losing the war very badly at the time the bombs were dropped.
Yes, Japan knew it was hopeless.
What I've read, and tend to think is true, is that Japan was planning to surrender in the summer of 45.
what I've read, and also tend to think is true, is that the US government was aware that Japan was going to try to surrender in the summer of 45.

That's simply not accurate. You shouldn't think of the gov't of Japan at the time as a single entity - it had factions like most gov'ts, and the military was particularly strong, and much of the civilian gov't was afraid of it. While several of the civilian ministers knew the war was hopeless by 1945, they were afraid of expressing this belief to anyone, for fear of being assasinated by the military. The emporer was willing to negotiate terms of surrender by early summer, 1945, but did not want to begin negotiations until after a decisive Japanese victory, to improve Japan's position in negotiations. Most of the military never wanted to surrender at all, at least before the bombs were dropped. Even after both bombs were dropped and the emporer had recorded his surrender announcement, several army officers attempted to stage a coup to prevent its broadcasting and to continue the war. It's not true that Japan was attempting to surrender before the atomic bombings - some civilian leaders knew defeat was coming, but most of the military wanted to fight on to the death regardless.

 

[JTsyo]

That's simply not accurate. You shouldn't think of the gov't of Japan at the time as a single entity - it had factions like most gov'ts, and the military was particularly strong, and much of the civilian gov't was afraid of it. While several of the civilian ministers knew the war was hopeless by 1945, they were afraid of expressing this belief to anyone, for fear of being assasinated by the military. The emporer was willing to negotiate terms of surrender by early summer, 1945, but did not want to begin negotiations until after a decisive Japanese victory, to improve Japan's position in negotiations. Most of the military never wanted to surrender at all, at before the bombs were dropped. Even after both bombs were dropped and the emporer had recorded his surrender announcement, several army officers attempted to stage a coup to prevent its broadcasting and to continue the war. It's not true that Japan was attempting to surrender before the atomic bombings - some civilian leaders knew defeat was coming, but most of the military wanted to fight on to the death regardless.

To add to that. Japan would have wanted a conditional surrender and the Allies would accept nothing but an unconditional surrender, no negotiations.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

WMD = weapons of mass destruction

I guess the most heinous use of WMD was by the United States in 1945 when it dropped two nuclear bombs over Japan killing approximately 200,000 people. Have there been any other uses of WMD anywhere near as bad as this in history?

(I'd also like to mention how ironic it is that we are now the moral police of the world in regards to WMD, given that we were responsible for the most heinous use of WMD in history, and still to this day possess more WMD than any other country.)

Surely it has to be Saddam?

 

[M0RPH]

"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.
"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."
- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

...

 

[sdifox]

...

So it bothered Eisenhower...What is your point?

There are many decisions in life that is not easy. Some more than others. Eisenhower is correct in his assessment in terms of overall view, but I don't think he thought much about the human costs of Japanese main island invasion at that point in time.

War is the ugly side of human nature, deal with it.


I hope this is not homework.

 

[FallenHero]

...

You do realize that is from his BELIEF, not a statement of fact. A review of the facts, if you actually have researched the topic you brought up, revealed that, as PREVIOUSLY STATED in this thread, the military had no intention of surrendering while there was a frightened civilian side that wanted a military victory before even trying to set up surrender negotiations...which the allies would have rejected unless it was unconditional.

Just the beach landing of the Japanese mainland would have made D-Day look like a drill in scale.

I'm curious what factual basis you have for believing that a full scale invasion or further conventional warfare would have saved more lives on both sides.

 

[Nik]

I like turtles.

 

[sdifox]

I like turtles.

Confection type or real animal type?

I think I had both :awe:

 

[M0RPH]

ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY

(Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman)

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.
"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."
- William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.

HERBERT HOOVER

"...the Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945...up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; ...if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs."
- quoted by Barton Bernstein in Philip Nobile, ed., Judgment at the Smithsonian, pg. 142

BRIGADIER GENERAL CARTER CLARKE

(The military intelligence officer in charge of preparing intercepted Japanese cables - the MAGIC summaries - for Truman and his advisors)

"...when we didn't need to do it, and we knew we didn't need to do it, and they knew that we knew we didn't need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs."
Quoted in Gar Alperovitz, The Decision To Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 359.

 

[sdifox]

ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY

(Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman)

HERBERT HOOVER



BRIGADIER GENERAL CARTER CLARKE

(The military intelligence officer in charge of preparing intercepted Japanese cables - the MAGIC summaries - for Truman and his advisors)

since we have no nested quote, please refer to your own post for reference.


opinion of 3 people vs assured deaths of hundreds of thousand of people. Were they asked if they were willing to go storm the beaches of Japan?

Hoover was correct that there was a Japanese faction that wanted peace, except that faction was not in power. So negotiating peace was never an option.

I think you missed the debate boat by a few decades.

 

[Brainonska511]

Quick point as I re-enter this thread:

If we allowed the Japanese to have a conditional surrender earlier in 1945, what would happen to the occupied parts of China and Korea? You think they would have just let them go?

 

[Mursilis]

...

So, you can cut & paste - I'm impressed. But can you read? I suggest Downfall by Rich Frank. Read a little and get back to us.

 

[sdifox]

Weapon of Mass Vagina?

Women of Massive Vulva? :awe: