Mortgage rates are going up.

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mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
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Agreed.

Stock market volatility ("beta") and stock market risk (i. e. permanent loss of capital) are very different things if you are appropriately diversified and have an appropriately long term time horizon.

 

Aharami

Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
21,205
165
106
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Aharami
wow this thread got interesting. LK, you're the first person Ive seen who said it's not a good time to buy. Everyone I spoke with said now is a good time to buy. I understand what you're saying - house prices will decrease and it will get better for buyers. But at this point, I'm under contract and cant really back out. Not that I'd want to either. It would cost me around 2K/month to rent a similar place I'm about to buy. After taxes and fees, im looking at about 2400/month to buy this place in central NJ. That extra $400 a month is worth it for me to own my own place. I am buying this as my home, not as an investment.

The recent run up in interest rats has made renting a better option (I'm lookin at $120/month more due to the recent interest rate increases) but I'm committed to buy this place.

Hey, as long as you expect to lose money and are fine with that, then that's a decent decision. Personally, I don't like losing money and do what I can not to.

I'd be interested to know whether 2400 includes various insurance, taxes, a maintenance budget (including mowing, landscaping, paint...etc), time, and various other things included in home purchases.

You certainly have the right attitude about housing, in that it's not an investment.

2400 includes everything except utilities. which wouldnt be included in most equivalent rentals anyways
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,391
1,780
126
I just refinanced last month on a 10 year mortgage and locked in 5.25%....I was banking on the rates going up. I expect perceived market risk to drive the apr's up.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
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Looking forward, savvy investing in financial stocks will probably yield significantly better rates of return than speculating in real estate.

I am not advocating investing in individual financial stocks or even a financial sector fund, as even very savvy and experienced mutual fund managers (I own OAKLX and LLPFX and both have been burned in financial stocks, WM in terms of the former, UBS in terms of the latter) have been burned starting to bottom fish in the current market environment.

All of this stock market volatility is creating a lot of unrealized stock market appreciation going forward (say 3 - 5 years + from now), and investing in a diversified mutual fund (20 stock focused mutual fund will probably get almost all of the benefits of diversification, though 40 - 50 stock holding mutual fund will probably dampen day to day NAV volatility more so. Those mutual funds with tens of billions of dollars of assets probably are high expense ratio quasi-index funds, where their outperformance of the market has to be based on huge contrarian sector bets going forward).

 

railer

Golden Member
Apr 15, 2000
1,552
69
91
if you're in the market for a house, and were planning on buying a house, then by all means buy a house NOW. Don't be disuaded by some bitter bank teller on anandtech who can only afford to rent. The sooner you pull the trigger, the sooner it will be paid for. We'll be mortage-free in about 8 years, while the renters are still forking over their monthy wad to the their overlord landlords, with nothing to show for it, ever. To each their own I guess. :D.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
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"By the Realtors? way of thinking, it?s always a good time to buy. Homeownership, they argue, is a way to achieve the American dream, save on taxes and earn a solid investment return all at the same time.

That?s how it has worked out for much of the last 15 years. But in a stark reversal, it?s now clear that people who chose renting over buying in the last two years made the right move. In much of the country, including large parts of the Northeast, California, Florida and the Southwest, recent home buyers have faced higher monthly costs than renters and have lost money on their investment in the meantime. It?s almost as if they have thrown money away, an insult once reserved for renters."


(copied and pasted from an approximately year old NY Times Rent vs. Buy article reproduced on page 4 of this thread; his most recent updated article is here)


 

Aharami

Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
21,205
165
106
to give LK credit, even though he comes off a bit arrogant, he has proved in numerous threads that he knows quite a bit about the financial sector (im sure a few others are in the know too, but he seems the most vocal about his knowledge) so I dont really doubt all that he claims about his job and living conditions.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
Originally posted by: mshan
"By the Realtors? way of thinking, it?s always a good time to buy. Homeownership, they argue, is a way to achieve the American dream, save on taxes and earn a solid investment return all at the same time.

That?s how it has worked out for much of the last 15 years. But in a stark reversal, it?s now clear that people who chose renting over buying in the last two years made the right move. In much of the country, including large parts of the Northeast, California, Florida and the Southwest, recent home buyers have faced higher monthly costs than renters and have lost money on their investment in the meantime. It?s almost as if they have thrown money away, an insult once reserved for renters."


(copied and pasted from a year old NY Times Rent vs. Buy article copied and pasted on page 4 of this thread; updated article here)

:confused:
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Simple.

You have to separate home ownership vs. renting (as a place to live) vs. real estate as an investment, going forward.

 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
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Only an idiot would buy in CA right now, I can rent a place for $2500/mo or buy it for 1 million. Gee I wonder which Ill choose.

 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
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Most recent NY Times Rent vs. Buy article reproduced for archival purposes:



May 28, 2008
NY Times /ECONOMIC SCENE

As Home Prices Drop Low Enough, a Committed Renter Decides to Buy

By DAVID LEONHARDT

For the last few years, I have been an evangelist for renting.

I?ve told my sister-in-law and her husband that they would be crazy to abandon their reasonably priced one-bedroom rental in Brooklyn. When two of my colleagues were moving to Los Angeles, I e-mailed them a spreadsheet that helped persuade them not to buy a house there. That same spreadsheet was the basis for an article in 2005, when I argued that ?renting has become a surprisingly smart option.? Last spring ? like any good evangelist, comfortable with repetition ? I wrote a similar article.

The case for renting has been simple enough. House prices rose so high in the first half of this decade that you could often get more for your money by renting. You could also avoid having a large part of your net worth tied up in a speculative bubble.

All this time, I have been a renter myself, first in the New York suburbs and then in Manhattan. But my wife and I will be moving to Washington this summer. And the housing market has, obviously, changed quite a bit since our last move, in 2005. Nationwide, prices fell 14.1 percent from early 2007 to early this year, as Standard & Poor?s reported Tuesday. Home prices almost certainly still have a way to fall, but they?re now well below their peak.

So my wife and I began our search with open minds, willing to consider renting or buying. We ended our search by signing a contract to buy a house.

This is the story of my conversion.

?

One of the big lies of the real estate business is the idea that renting a home is tantamount to throwing money away. It?s a useful fiction for real estate agents, because they make vastly bigger commissions on house sales than rentals. But the comparison isn?t nearly so straightforward for the rest of us.

Renting involves one obvious, recurring cost that can never be recouped: the monthly rent check. Buying, on the other hand, involves multiple expenses, some of which aren?t so obvious. On top of closing costs, there are repairs, property taxes, mortgage principal and mortgage interest. (The mortgage-interest tax deduction reduces this last cost but doesn?t eliminate it.) When you own, you also lose the ability to invest your down payment elsewhere, like the stock market.

Of course, owning also brings benefits that have nothing to do with money. You can settle into your home, confident that no landlord will kick you out. You can repaint the walls and redo the kitchen. All else being equal, owning seems far preferable to renting.

Knowing all this, my wife and I were willing to buy a house even if it was ultimately going to cost us a bit more than renting. We just weren?t willing to have it cost a lot more than renting.

Over the last several years, I?ve come to like a simple, back-of-the-envelope way to compare the costs of renting and owning. You find two similar houses, one for sale and the other for rent, and divide the sale price by the annual rent. You can call the result the rent ratio.

The concept will probably sound familiar to stock market investors. It?s the real estate market?s version of a price-earnings ratio ? a measure of how expensive an asset is, relative to the underlying economic fundamentals. Like a P/E ratio, the rent ratio provides something of a reality check.

Throughout the 1970s, ?80s and ?90s, the average rent ratio nationwide hovered between 10 and 14. In the last few years, though, it broke through that historical range and hit almost 19 by the time the housing market peaked, in 2006.

And while home prices ? and rent ratios ? have always been higher on the coasts, they reached whole new levels recently. In the Washington area, the ratio went above 20. In Boston, New York, Los Angeles and south Florida, it topped 25. In Northern California, it approached 35, higher than it had been in any city, at any point on record.

In concrete terms, a rent ratio above 20 means that the monthly costs of ownership well exceed the cost of renting. At current mortgage rates, for example, a $500,000 house would typically bring monthly expenses of about $3,000 (taking into account taxes, repairs, a typical down payment and, yes, the mortgage deduction). When the rent ratio is 20, that same house could be rented for only about $2,000 a month.

(my edit: I think 30 year fixed mortgage rates may have been below 6% when this article was written; I read on some website that a realtor said a 0.5% change in mortgage interest rate correlates with 5% adjustment in price, but I think this in terms of monthly carrying costs alone)

There are two problems with buying a house in this situation. The first, plainly, is the extra $1,000 you?re paying each month for the privilege of owning, on top of the thousands of dollars you spent on closing costs. The second problem is that a rent ratio above 20 is a good indication of a bubble. When the prices of houses get out of line with the competition?s prices ? that is, those in the rental market ? a correction is coming.

The question facing my wife and me was whether we were entering the market before the correction had gone far enough. I really didn?t know what the answer would be. So as we looked at houses, I started calculating rent ratios.

In the neighborhoods where we were looking, two-bedroom condominiums were selling for $400,000 and being rented for about $2,100 a month, which makes for a rent ratio of 16. Four-bedroom houses were selling for $700,000 and being rented for almost $4,000, which makes for a rent ratio of 15. No matter the price range, pretty much every apples-to-apples comparison produced a similar ratio.

Historically, this is still a bit high. But it?s very different from where the market was just a couple of years ago. With house prices having fallen over the last two years and rents continuing to rise, the decision became a much closer call. We would now have to spend only a little more each month for the privilege of owning.

This month, we found a house that we really liked, and we made an offer. It was accepted.

I?m still not sure how good our timing was. Based on the backlog of houses on the market, I fully expect that our new house will be worth less in six months than it is today. I?m also not sure that we would have been willing to buy in Boston, New York or much of California, where the rent ratios remain above 20, according to data from Moody?s Economy.com.

In fact, if you?re now renting ? almost anywhere ? and do not need to move, I?d probably recommend that you wait to buy. The market is still coming your way.

But it?s O.K. with me if our timing wasn?t perfect. After several years of reporting on the housing market, I?m convinced that the most common real estate mistake is viewing a house first as a financial investment and only second as a home. That?s one big reason we ended up in this bubble-induced mess.

Most of the time, the decision whether to rent or buy should be based above all on life circumstances. Do you expect to move again in a couple years? Or is there a good chance that you?re ready to settle in ? and stop worrying about real estate for a while?

The housing bubble, unfortunately, forced a reconsideration of this standard, because houses became so overvalued. But they?re slowly coming back to reality, which means that buying has again started to make sense for more people. Apparently, I?m one of them.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,393
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Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The scam that perpetuated the housing bubble is that housing was a good "investment" and saved so much more money, or gained money. That's a bald faced lie perpetuated by the NAR/MBA to get people to buy. It ignores the simple economics.

i blame HGTV and the like more than anyone else.

'for only $500 we turned this POS into a work of art! then we flipped it for $40,000 profit!'


Originally posted by: Special K

Here is an excellent buy vs. rent calculator I found on the NYT. It even allows you to consider the growth of your money if you invested the difference between the cost of buying and renting:

link

i can't seem to show how buying a house rather than renting an apartment saves money in utilities due to how shoddily put together apartments are around here.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: railer
if you're in the market for a house, and were planning on buying a house, then by all means buy a house NOW. Don't be disuaded by some bitter bank teller on anandtech who can only afford to rent. The sooner you pull the trigger, the sooner it will be paid for. We'll be mortage-free in about 8 years, while the renters are still forking over their monthy wad to the their overlord landlords, with nothing to show for it, ever. To each their own I guess. :D.

lol, ok sparky. You keep advocating a position with no backup or logic while attacking me without refuting my points. It's the oldest internet trick and one that wore out about 20 years ago.

Even if I were a bitter bank teller, I'd still have added more to this thread than some assclown who's biggest experience was working at the local k-mart.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Aharami
to give LK credit, even though he comes off a bit arrogant, he has proved in numerous threads that he knows quite a bit about the financial sector (im sure a few others are in the know too, but he seems the most vocal about his knowledge) so I dont really doubt all that he claims about his job and living conditions.

I appreciate that. I only come off of that because it's a bit annoying to have people like above attempt to undermine a well thought out series of arguments by merely saying "you suck and are a bank teller" or merely parroting something that's completely against all reasonably easily found data.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: ElFenix

i blame HGTV and the like more than anyone else.

'for only $500 we turned this POS into a work of art! then we flipped it for $40,000 profit!'

i can't seem to show how buying a house rather than renting an apartment saves money in utilities due to how shoddily put together apartments are around here.

I don't blame HGTV for showing on TV what people have been doing for years. Personally, I blame plain old greed. People were looking for a lottery ticket, same as they were looking for a lottery ticket with .bombs. However, with housing you could lever up 5:1 or less, write-off interest, and if kept for 2 years, get hit with no capital gains. It was a situation people wanted to never end. Essentially it was a pyramid scheme of never-ending circle jerking evaluations.

I know somebody who was looking for the lottery ticket who now has 600k in two mortgages with 350k in houses backing them. She thought I was "arrogant", "jealous", and "bitching" at her when I told her not to buy those houses. I gave her reasoned points she didn't want to be told something contrary to the pathetic "research" she had performed.

Now, she won't even talk to my wife (who was her "best friend" and she was the maid of honor at our wedding), because she knows how horribly she screwed up. It's actually quite humorous to me

I've seen the same old shtick played over and over. Those who think they know because they have heard about flipping or "investing" will, in the end, only become the suckers in the situation. They claim that people who are smarter are jealous, or have somehow screwed them.

People are in love with money and want to get rich quick. Love is blind.

I would agree that an apartment will probably not save money on utilities



 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: CasioTech
I have made tens of thousands flipping properties and only now am breaking even on my last property which I am stuck with and it's still cheaper than renting the same property.

some of my close friends and family netted well over 400k flipping properties from the year 2001-2005.

So what happened in 2006 and 2007?
Why did your family and close friends stop flipping houses?
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,391
1,780
126
Don't worry new home buyers out there. If the markets continue to drop and home values fall, you'll still get stuck paying through the nose. Mr. Tax man himself has been writing checks just as easily as the idiots that got stuck investing in real estate markets in the last couple of years. Home values will continue to take a dive and along with that trend, your property taxes will increase to compensate for the loss in county and city revenues....if the markets turn around, you're going to be stuck with the new rates and won't get any breaks. ENJOY.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Originally posted by: CasioTech
I have made tens of thousands flipping properties and only now am breaking even on my last property which I am stuck with and it's still cheaper than renting the same property.

some of my close friends and family netted well over 400k flipping properties from the year 2001-2005.

So what happened in 2006 and 2007?
Why did your family and close friends stop flipping houses?

Perhaps his low teaser rate hybrid option ARM, no money down, first and second mortgage financing dried up? :evil:
 

Special K

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2000
7,098
0
76
Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Special K

Here is an excellent buy vs. rent calculator I found on the NYT. It even allows you to consider the growth of your money if you invested the difference between the cost of buying and renting:

link

i can't seem to show how buying a house rather than renting an apartment saves money in utilities due to how shoddily put together apartments are around here.

You are saying that the apartment would cost you so much more in utilities as to make the overall cost higher than buying? What is it about the construction that would make that large of a difference?

I always figured houses lead to higher utility bills, not lower.

 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
Originally posted by: Special K
Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Special K

Here is an excellent buy vs. rent calculator I found on the NYT. It even allows you to consider the growth of your money if you invested the difference between the cost of buying and renting:

link

i can't seem to show how buying a house rather than renting an apartment saves money in utilities due to how shoddily put together apartments are around here.

You are saying that the apartment would cost you so much more in utilities as to make the overall cost higher than buying? What is it about the construction that would make that large of a difference?

I always figured houses lead to higher utility bills, not lower.

In a number of cases, landlords have no desire to invest the money to properly insulate their rentals and install the least energy efficient appliances/furnaces/etc.

My friend rented a place that had so little insulation that her heat had to run non-stop during the winter. Her heating bill was three times higher compared to my heating bill for my house.
 

Dirigible

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2006
5,961
32
91
Wow, this thread sure strayed off the "why are mortgage rates going up?" topic.

Anyone know if, when mortgage rates go up, prices go down commensurately to compensate? In other words, would a buyer pay the same monthly nut no matter if rates were high or low because the prices went up (with low rates) or down (with high rates)? If that's the case, as a buyer I'd want rates to go up really really high. That'd have two benefits: (1) prices would go down, making it easier to save my 20% downpayment and making it easier to pay off the whole house earlier, and (2) if rates are at historic highs, there's more of a chance of them going down sometime in the 30-year mortgage period, allowing me to refinance and reduce my monthly payment. Easier to pay off + higher likelihood of decreased monthly cost = double win! Really makes me wonder how tied together rates and prices are... whether there's a loose relation or if they move in lockstep...
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: mshan
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: CasioTech
I have made tens of thousands flipping properties and only now am breaking even on my last property which I am stuck with and it's still cheaper than renting the same property.

some of my close friends and family netted well over 400k flipping properties from the year 2001-2005.

So what happened in 2006 and 2007?
Why did your family and close friends stop flipping houses?

Perhaps his low teaser rate hybrid option ARM, no money down, first and second mortgage financing dried up? :evil:

One can only hope.
My guess would have been that the houses flipped his family and close friends after that.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,704
5,824
146
LK, thank you for all the insight. You have presented the information in bite-sized chunks even my mind can digest:D
We will be buying some property in the next couple of years and building our retirement home. it has nothing at all to do with investment or making money, and everything to do with wanting to live where and how we wish.
It is good to know the reasons behind whatever happens when we seek financing.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: skyking
LK, thank you for all the insight. You have presented the information in bite-sized chunks even my mind can digest:D
We will be buying some property in the next couple of years and building our retirement home. it has nothing at all to do with investment or making money, and everything to do with wanting to live where and how we wish.
It is good to know the reasons behind whatever happens when we seek financing.

I definitely think that we need another year or so to get through this. I am looking to buy in the spring of 09 myself. I would certainly agree that you need to live where you want as long as you're not looking to make money and are fully cognizant that you might even lose money if you buy too soon, although I think you've got a good time horizon.

I also think that even though you might see short-term rates go up you will see a compression of the risk and liquidity spreads in the future. If the Fed raises rates to counter any inflationary pressure you might see rates come down comfortably. That and once commodities settle down a bit the capital invested there will probably somewhat come back into mortgages, lowering borrowing rates.
 

Aharami

Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
21,205
165
106
Originally posted by: Dirigible
Wow, this thread sure strayed off the "why are mortgage rates going up?" topic.

Anyone know if, when mortgage rates go up, prices go down commensurately to compensate? In other words, would a buyer pay the same monthly nut no matter if rates were high or low because the prices went up (with low rates) or down (with high rates)? If that's the case, as a buyer I'd want rates to go up really really high. That'd have two benefits: (1) prices would go down, making it easier to save my 20% downpayment and making it easier to pay off the whole house earlier, and (2) if rates are at historic highs, there's more of a chance of them going down sometime in the 30-year mortgage period, allowing me to refinance and reduce my monthly payment. Easier to pay off + higher likelihood of decreased monthly cost = double win! Really makes me wonder how tied together rates and prices are... whether there's a loose relation or if they move in lockstep...

i'd say there is a correlation between prices and rates in the long run, but in the short term, no. Sellers who have their houses in the market right now arent checking daily to see what the rates are and adjusting their prices accordingly. And unfortunately, in the end, it is the seller who decides the selling price of the house.

As a buyer, if I were to start looking today, in an increasing interest rate market, I woulnt have bid up as much as i did.