Mortgage rates are going up.

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mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
For someone who was truly looking for a home to live in and had been locked out by skyrocketing prices, buying a home may make sense if you have done your homework and studied price appreciation patterns (i.e. actual prices paid over time, also keeping in mind that you may have had a lifetime of home price appreciation condensed into the last 5 - 7 years) for homes similar to what you are looking at, so you truly know what it is worth in the current market and are realistic about price appreciation going forward.

For real estate speculators, I'd venture a guess and say that the stock market may yield subtantially higher returns, over time, than real estate going forward: The Magic of Time and Compound Interest

?Rather than worry about the direction of the next 1,000 points, my advice is to stay focused on this reality: If the Index compounds at just 7% on average over the next 30 years, the Dow would rise to between 90,000 and 100,000.? :)


 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
Dont listen to Casiotech either, he flips womens jeans and Wiis on ebay for a living.

I personally dont think housing will reach a bottom until at least 2010, youve got the second wave of mortgage resets coming up this year and next, this time hitting the prime buyers.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Dont listen to Casiotech either, he flips womens jeans and Wiis on ebay for a living.

I personally dont think housing will reach a bottom until at least 2010, youve got the second wave of mortgage resets coming up this year and next, this time hitting the prime buyers.

Wow, so many "experts" around here. We have a guy who's a shill for the housing industry and another one that's not even close to the industry but thinks he knows what he's doing because he made money in an up market (how difficult).

This is why there was a housing boom, and now bust, in the first place and why people are losing a lot of money.

But you and I are "bottom tier". ROFL.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Here's a hint sparky. I have my MBA and am a CFA charterholder, I work in Manhattan. My last apartment in Manhattan (not the one I currently am in) cost me $3,500/mo and I had plenty of money left over at the end of the month. That's after my wife and I paying over 1,200/mo in student loan payments. I was so far out of the "tax rebate" that I didn't even get a letter that bothered to tell me I didn't qualify.

I've been renting for about 7 years in various places, Minneapolis, Miami, Orlando, Reston VA, Manhattan, and now Greenwich CT.

My job is to quantify risk, evaluate assets, negotiate indentures, note purchase agreements, servicing and selling agreements, originate and close securitization transactions for a conduit with billions in assets.

One of the areas I look into is housing. There isn't one bank that's going there in any major way right now. Nobody is buying it, not while they're still writing down over $300Bn. Lehman just took a massive hit due to their foolishness.

Wow, you work at a home builder. Big fucking deal. I've seen plenty of deals go under with home builders, Lehman is an example.

You've still not countered my data or SpecialK's calculator.

You are talking to specifically on a very non-specific field. The calculators also are generic in nature.

I work at a mortgage company for a homebuilder. I was involved heavily in the non-home builder mortgage market...specifically Ocwen for much of it's 1990's BCD buyouts with Blackrock, Morgan Stanley, Bear, Sterns, etc.

in late 1996 we did HUGE securitizations and sell offs, they were the largest in the history of banking. Market changed then too and instead of being able to buy at 25 cents on a dollar it became much tighter. Money was easy then though in these unchartered waters.

Much of the time we could take back a house say with a note of $300k and had $200k left to pay out. We picked it up at below $100k in a portfolio. We offer the mortgagee a refi at 80% of their current balance...while they couldn't pay at the higher amount they can now and we still profit. We get them to pay for three good months and resell the loan.

Other times we may have picked up a much sweeter property with very little left but the owner has sold off every asset available and could not secure financing with anyone due to chapter 7/11 etc....those we'd take as REO and evict and sell for top dollar.

It's still a profitable business, but not as low hanging as it was.

Most banks are writing more loans again...FHA is becoming popular and many were behind the curve having to re-learn how to do these loans. There is still alot of misinformation that one has to have 20%. That is not the case at all. What is VERY true is the person with bad or no credit history is going to have to like traditionally put up a higher amount up front or find a more secure co-signer.

Sales and applications are up. Nothing spectacular but buyers are cashing in on great incentives and rates right now. We are showing great positive trends since year start and should pass our projected numbers for the year. We have surpassed 1st 1/4 and 2nd estimates so far. October is always the month we do a large portions of all closings for the year...it's looking good.

Also you have to realize that home ownership is not just black and white...being separate from someone able to come on your property, being limited to what you can and cannot do, etc go a long way over payments.

What happens much of the time is the renter is renting at a much lower level than the type of home they are looking at. They tend to look for the cheapest rent yet the most full-featured homes. Different levels.

Right now though it's not difficult to rent a brand new home at a fraction of it's mortgage. You are still renting though.

The condo market is abyssimal. Many investors aren't buying the loans and some are looking at 30% or more down in order to get into one. It's a bad buy now esp in buildings only 10% occupied.

It's really all a matter of where one is living and what type of property they are looking for coupled with their credit and the cost to secure financing.

No one can make a statement that covers all markets right now.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Dont listen to Casiotech either, he flips womens jeans and Wiis on ebay for a living.

I personally dont think housing will reach a bottom until at least 2010, youve got the second wave of mortgage resets coming up this year and next, this time hitting the prime buyers.

Wow, so many "experts" around here. We have a guy who's a shill for the housing industry and another one that's not even close to the industry but thinks he knows what he's doing because he made money in an up market (how difficult).

This is why there was a housing boom, and now bust, in the first place and why people are losing a lot of money.

But you and I are "bottom tier". ROFL.

You are quick to throw out labels when in any circle of your peers you'd be laughed at.

Slew Foot, the prime buyers can just refinance...most did not take these products anyway...I don't know why the third reset would be the one to affect prime buyers anyway either. Don't know where you are based your numbers off.

As far as 'shill', I am part of a top 10 home builder's mortgage company. While the market being down hurts the builder side alot, we aren't so exposed.

 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Dont listen to Casiotech either, he flips womens jeans and Wiis on ebay for a living.

I personally dont think housing will reach a bottom until at least 2010, youve got the second wave of mortgage resets coming up this year and next, this time hitting the prime buyers.

Wow, so many "experts" around here. We have a guy who's a shill for the housing industry and another one that's not even close to the industry but thinks he knows what he's doing because he made money in an up market (how difficult).

This is why there was a housing boom, and now bust, in the first place and why people are losing a lot of money.

But you and I are "bottom tier". ROFL.

Seven years ago, if you had bought into the market and sold at the appropriate time with all of your great knowledge and timing you could have made yourself some $100k's but you just rented.

Looking at national numbers doesn't give you the specifies for particular parts of the countries and individual cities.

Where will interest rates be when it's time to buy? Higher than now?
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
0.5% change in mortgage rate is supposed to correlate to 5% change in purchase price (carrying costs only?).

I agree that LK might have been a little harsh in his comments, but capital preservation (i.e. avoiding stupid permanent losses of capital) is a healthy part of long term wealth creation.

Warren Buffet completely avoided the tech bubble because he couldn't understand it, and he is still the richest man in the world.

 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
FHA is in trouble from all teh crap loans they're taking on.

F.H.A. Faces $4.6 Billion in Losses

WASHINGTON ? The Federal Housing Administration expects to lose $4.6 billion because of unexpectedly high default rates on home loans, officials said Monday.

Brian D. Montgomery, the F.H.A. commissioner, attributed the unanticipated losses primarily to the agency?s seller-financed down payment mortgage program, which has suffered from high delinquency and foreclosure rates in recent years.


As for prime borrowers:
http://finance.yahoo.com/loans...ext-Real-Estate-Crisis
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: alkemyst
You are quick to throw out labels when in any circle of your peers you'd be laughed at.

Slew Foot, the prime buyers can just refinance...most did not take these products anyway...I don't know why the third reset would be the one to affect prime buyers anyway either. Don't know where you are based your numbers off.

As far as 'shill', I am part of a top 10 home builder's mortgage company. While the market being down hurts the builder side alot, we aren't so exposed.

Who are my peers? People who won't touch the housing market until it's showing signs of recovery? If you want to call them "bottom tier" then I guess not wasting money is "bottom tier".

Prime buyers are being effected to greater extents. It can easily be seen in the RMBS delinquency and default numbers. The lower tiered primes are coming under stress.

And I am part of a top10 bank in the world. I just don't paint a super rosy picture of the banking industry.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Dont listen to Casiotech either, he flips womens jeans and Wiis on ebay for a living.

I personally dont think housing will reach a bottom until at least 2010, youve got the second wave of mortgage resets coming up this year and next, this time hitting the prime buyers.

Wow, so many "experts" around here. We have a guy who's a shill for the housing industry and another one that's not even close to the industry but thinks he knows what he's doing because he made money in an up market (how difficult).

This is why there was a housing boom, and now bust, in the first place and why people are losing a lot of money.

But you and I are "bottom tier". ROFL.

Seven years ago, if you had bought into the market and sold at the appropriate time with all of your great knowledge and timing you could have made yourself some $100k's but you just rented.

Looking at national numbers doesn't give you the specifies for particular parts of the countries and individual cities.

Where will interest rates be when it's time to buy? Higher than now?

7 years ago I was just entering my senior year in college, not likely I'd be buying then. 5 years ago when I finished up my MBA and moved to Orlando, I didn't want to buy a house in that market. It was a fortuitous decision, as the condo we would have bought is not worth less than it was worth in 2003. In 2006 when I moved to Reston VA I rented a condo from a woman who bought it for about 300k, it's now worth 200k. Last year I rented an apartment for 3,500/mo, an equiv place would have been 800-1M in Manhattan.

Now, I live in an apartment paying 2,200/mo, an equiv place would cost about 700k. In the same area I am in I saw a 1.25M house sell out of foreclosure for $900, in a nice Greenwich CT neighborhood.

I have absolutely not one regret. I never said I'd try to catch the bottom. However, if 100 was the peak of the market, it's at 85 now, I expect it to go to 75, and I buy at 80, I still didn't lose that 5. I didn't buy at the trough, but housing won't move quick enough that it'd appreciate to 85 before I would get in.

 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Dont listen to Casiotech either, he flips womens jeans and Wiis on ebay for a living.

I personally dont think housing will reach a bottom until at least 2010, youve got the second wave of mortgage resets coming up this year and next, this time hitting the prime buyers.

Wow, so many "experts" around here. We have a guy who's a shill for the housing industry and another one that's not even close to the industry but thinks he knows what he's doing because he made money in an up market (how difficult).

This is why there was a housing boom, and now bust, in the first place and why people are losing a lot of money.

But you and I are "bottom tier". ROFL.

Seven years ago, if you had bought into the market and sold at the appropriate time with all of your great knowledge and timing you could have made yourself some $100k's but you just rented.

Looking at national numbers doesn't give you the specifies for particular parts of the countries and individual cities.

Where will interest rates be when it's time to buy? Higher than now?

7 years ago I was just entering my senior year in college, not likely I'd be buying then. 5 years ago when I finished up my MBA and moved to Orlando, I didn't want to buy a house in that market. It was a fortuitous decision, as the condo we would have bought is not worth less than it was worth in 2003. In 2006 when I moved to Reston VA I rented a condo from a woman who bought it for about 300k, it's now worth 200k. Last year I rented an apartment for 3,500/mo, an equiv place would have been 800-1M in Manhattan.

Now, I live in an apartment paying 2,200/mo, an equiv place would cost about 700k. In the same area I am in I saw a 1.25M house sell out of foreclosure for $900, in a nice Greenwich CT neighborhood.

I have absolutely not one regret. I never said I'd try to catch the bottom. However, if 100 was the peak of the market, it's at 85 now, I expect it to go to 75, and I buy at 80, I still didn't lose that 5. I didn't buy at the trough, but housing won't move quick enough that it'd appreciate to 85 before I would get in.

Well you answered most of our questions at 29 and no home ownership below your belt you have no idea, this is probably the first cycle in the market you have experienced. More than likely you are not in a position to buy rather than simply not wanting too.

Maybe if you weren't paying dues for a CFA charter you'd have more for yourself.

I have been in this industry more than 20 years now. I bought a house last year. My rent at the time as only $500. I was able to use about $20k of the sellers money (profit) to pay down debts and other things and still got the house below market. My payment is now around $2200, but I have more room...can work on projects, etc. That alone is worth the $1700 a month...further I get back a good chunk of that at the end of the year (this will dwindle over the life of the loan).

Plus as a homeowner I qualify for things a renter never would, various discounts, etc...




 

Aharami

Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
21,205
165
106
wow this thread got interesting. LK, you're the first person Ive seen who said it's not a good time to buy. Everyone I spoke with said now is a good time to buy. I understand what you're saying - house prices will decrease and it will get better for buyers. But at this point, I'm under contract and cant really back out. Not that I'd want to either. It would cost me around 2K/month to rent a similar place I'm about to buy. After taxes and fees, im looking at about 2400/month to buy this place in central NJ. That extra $400 a month is worth it for me to own my own place. I am buying this as my home, not as an investment.

The recent run up in interest rats has made renting a better option (I'm lookin at $120/month more due to the recent interest rate increases) but I'm committed to buy this place.
 

Aharami

Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
21,205
165
106
Originally posted by: alkemyst
What happens much of the time is the renter is renting at a much lower level than the type of home they are looking at. They tend to look for the cheapest rent yet the most full-featured homes. Different levels.

I have to agree with this statement.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
Originally posted by: Aharami
wow this thread got interesting. LK, you're the first person Ive seen who said it's not a good time to buy. Everyone I spoke with said now is a good time to buy. I understand what you're saying - house prices will decrease and it will get better for buyers. But at this point, I'm under contract and cant really back out. Not that I'd want to either. It would cost me around 2K/month to rent a similar place I'm about to buy. After taxes and fees, im looking at about 2400/month to buy this place in central NJ. That extra $400 a month is worth it for me to own my own place. I am buying this as my home, not as an investment.

The recent run up in interest rats has made renting a better option (I'm lookin at $120/month more due to the recent interest rate increases) but I'm committed to buy this place.

LK doesn't know your situation or location, he's just making a general opinion.

Based on the mortgage company, they may offer the ability to refinance at little or no cost if rates drop after you close. Ask them about it. I got my mortgage thru Chase and I can refinance once for free up to a year after my close.
 

Aharami

Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
21,205
165
106
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
LK doesn't know your situation or location, he's just making a general opinion.

Based on the mortgage company, they may offer the ability to refinance at little or no cost if rates drop after you close. Ask them about it. I got my mortgage thru Chase and I can refinance once for free up to a year after my close.

Interesting. I'll have to ask my lender about that. thanks. How does re-fi work anyways? Do you refinance for the purchase price of the house, or do you refi for purchase price - premium paid off?
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Aharami, did you look at the New Jersey First Time Home Buyer Loan program? Link

There are restrictions, and the federal recapture tax would kick in if you sell within 7 years and your income increases beyond limits of program, but the rate the program offers should be below market rates because I believe it is funded with tax exempt bonds.
 

Aharami

Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
21,205
165
106
Originally posted by: mshan
Aharami, did you look at the New Jersey First Time Home Buyer Loan program? Link

There are restrictions, and the federal recapture tax would kick in if you sell within 7 years and your income increases beyond limits of program, but the rate the program offers should be below market rates because I believe it is funded with tax exempt bonds.

nice program, but im above the max income limit. I'd have jumped on that rate though :p
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Regarding refi, I believe rule of thumb is to consider if rates fall 1% below your current mortgage rate.

There is no such thing as a "no cost" refinance; mortgage company just rolls their costs (and extra profit) into the higher rate they offer you, vs. what you could argueably get from someone else if you paid your transaction costs out of pocket. Depending upon how long you will keep the loan, it may make more sense to roll transaction costs into the mortgage, or to pay for them out of pocket. And if you had a good realtor, hopefully you already neogotiated closing cost assistance into your purchase price.

If your current lender offers no cost refi down the road, and rate is lower, obviously may make sense to take option, but realize you probably could have gotten a lower rate (guessing 0.25% - 0.5% lower) if you paid transaction costs out of pocket yourself.

Book :thumbsup:
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,419
8
81
:confused:

Where is all this "better to rent" stuff coming from? :Q

I've always heard exactly the opposite...
 

Christobevii3

Senior member
Aug 29, 2004
995
0
76
Home loans are based off the libor rate, not the fed funds rate. This continues to go up as more homes default and more banks post losses.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
April 11, 2007
NY Times / Economix


A Word of Advice During a Housing Slump: Rent

By DAVID LEONHARDT

A promotional spot for the National Association of Realtors came on the radio the other day. The spot, introduced as something called ?Newsmakers,? was supposed to sound like a news report, with the association?s president offering real estate advice.

?This is the best time to buy,? Pat Vredevoogd Combs, the president, said cheerfully. ?There?s a lot of inventory in the marketplace. Interest rates are low. It?s a wonderful tax deduction.?

By the Realtors? way of thinking, it?s always a good time to buy. Homeownership, they argue, is a way to achieve the American dream, save on taxes and earn a solid investment return all at the same time.

That?s how it has worked out for much of the last 15 years. But in a stark reversal, it?s now clear that people who chose renting over buying in the last two years made the right move. In much of the country, including large parts of the Northeast, California, Florida and the Southwest, recent home buyers have faced higher monthly costs than renters and have lost money on their investment in the meantime. It?s almost as if they have thrown money away, an insult once reserved for renters.

Most striking, perhaps, is the fact that prices may not yet have fallen far enough for buying to look better than renting today, except for people who plan to stay in a home for many years.

With the spring moving season under way, The New York Times has done an analysis of buying vs. renting in every major metropolitan area. The analysis includes data on housing costs and looks at different possibilities for the path of home prices in coming years.

It found that even though rents have recently jumped, the costs that come with buying a home ? mortgage payments, property taxes, fees to real estate agents ? remain a lot higher than the costs of renting. So buyers in many places are basically betting that home prices will rise smartly in the near future.


Over the next five years, which is about the average amount of time recent buyers have remained in their homes, prices in the Los Angeles area would have to rise more than 5 percent a year for a typical buyer there to do better than a renter. The same is true in Phoenix, Las Vegas, the New York region, Northern California and South Florida. In the Boston and Washington areas, the break-even point is about 4 percent.

?House prices have to fall more before housing becomes a clear buy again,? says Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody?s Economy.com, a research company that helped conduct the analysis. ?These markets aren?t as overvalued as they were a year ago or two years ago, but they?re still unfriendly. And that?s one of the reasons the market is still soft ? people realize it?s not a bargain.?

There is obviously no way to know what home prices will do in the next few years. But there are two big reasons to doubt the real estate boosters who insist that it?s once again a great time to buy.

The first is history. After the last big run-up in house prices, in the 1980s, a long slump followed. In the New York area, prices peaked in early 1989 and then fell 9 percent over the next three years, according to government data. (Adjusted for inflation, the drop was much bigger.) Not until 1998 did prices pass their earlier peak.

Keep in mind that the 2000-5 boom was even bigger than the ?80s boom and that house prices on the coasts, according to the official numbers at least, have fallen only slightly so far. So it is hard to imagine that prices will rise 5 percent a year, or another 28 percent in all, over the next five years.

The second reason for skepticism is that buying has never been quite as beneficial as Realtors ? and mortgage brokers, home builders and everybody else who makes money off home purchases ? have made it out to be. Buyers have to pay property taxes on top of their mortgage, while renters have the taxes included in their monthly rent bill. Buyers also face thousands of dollars in closing costs (and, in Manhattan, co-op charges). Renters, meanwhile, can invest what they would have spent on closing costs and a down payment in the stock market, which hasn?t exactly delivered a bad return over the last 20 years.

And that famous mortgage-interest tax deduction? Yes, it reduces the borrowing costs that come with a mortgage, but it doesn?t eliminate them. Renters don?t face any such borrowing costs.

Almost two years ago, I interviewed a thoughtful 37-year-old man named Tchaka Owen, who happens to be a real estate agent. (Whatever the sins of the Realtors? association, there are a lot of smart, helpful agents out there. Just remember that they have a financial interest in getting you to buy a house.)

Mr. Owen and his girlfriend, Polly Thompson, had recently moved from the Washington suburbs to the Miami area and decided to rent a two-bedroom apartment with spectacular bay views. ?You can get so much more for your money, renting instead of buying,? he said at the time.

Sure enough, house prices soon began to fall in South Florida, and Mr. Owen and Ms. Thompson started to think about buying a place. A three-bedroom Mediterranean-style house that they liked was originally listed for $620,000 last year, but the price was later cut to $543,000. They bought it in June for $516,000. Since then, the market has fallen further, but Mr. Owen said he didn?t mind, because they plan to stay in the house at least a decade. ?We love it,? he told me.

Clearly, there are benefits to owning a house beyond the financial, like the comfort of knowing you can stay as long as you want or can fix the roof without permission. But real estate has been sold as more than a good way to spend money. It has been sold as a can?t-miss investment. Back in 2005, near the peak of the market, the chief economist of the Realtors? association, David Lereah, published a book called ?Are You Missing the Real Estate Boom?? The can?t-miss argument was wrong then, and it may still be wrong today.

After hearing that radio spot, I called Ms. Combs and asked her whether she thought there was any chance that she and her fellow Realtors had gone a bit too far in promoting the boom. ?I absolutely disagree,? she said, still cheerful. ?We help people look at the marketplace.?

So I asked what advice she gave her own clients in Grand Rapids, Mich., where she is an agent. ?We often tell people that they need to stay in a house five to six years for it to make sense,? she said.

That?s a nuance that didn?t make it into her ?Newsmakers? interview. In Grand Rapids, where the median home costs $130,000, it is probably good advice. In a lot of other places, it may still be too optimistic.




Article has been updated, and I would say that there might be opportunities to buy, but probably with the caveats that you are going to live in the home and not buying to get rich, plan on staying there for say at least 5 - 7 + years, and have done enough home work to really know what the type of property you want is really worth in this market and going forward (e.g. what's local supply and demand like (was this an area of aggressive speculative overbuilding), and what does the local economy look like going forward (number and quality of jobs anticipated to be created. Also should look at pricing of comparable new homes as new home builders may be more realistic about market and actually be undercutting many still overpriced resale homes).

 

Gooberlx2

Lifer
May 4, 2001
15,381
6
91
Makes me happy that my wife and I locked in at 5.5% just before rates started going up. There are definitely some sick deals to be had considering how motivated some sellers/builders are. It's a great time to negotiate. For example: include landscaping, reduce selling price, cover agent commissions and closing costs, etc, etc...

We closed last week. Yay new homeowner!
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,633
2,894
136
My rent payment = $1175/mo.

My potential mortgage payment, including insurance and PMI (if applicable) = $1200/mo.

In MY market, a smart buy is ALWAYS better than renting.

Also, expect the housing market to recover quickly. Supplies are no longer expanding and homebuilders are going bankrupt as municipalities begin calling their bonds. By the time other economic factors push housing into normalcy, the current and upcoming subdivision bond crisis will artificially inflate prices again.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Eli
:confused:

Where is all this "better to rent" stuff coming from? :Q

I've always heard exactly the opposite...

That's because the MBA/NAR want you to support their living.