you got the pray for guidance part right, but in no way does the book of mormon twist the bible. open mindedness is good quality to have so maybe you should take your own advice and "pray for guidance" about a book claiming to be the word of God rather than just turning away from it. ya know it's funny, when Christ came to the Jews they turned away from Him so fast because they had Moses and that was all they needed. they "knew" that He wasn't the Messiah and they didn't even attempt to learn from Him or hear Him out, because their minds were already made up. People grasp on to a single idea and hold onto it so much that they miss all of the other good things that have been given to them
you got the pray for guidance part right, but in no way does the book of mormon twist the bible. open mindedness is good quality to have so maybe you should take your own advice and "pray for guidance" about a book claiming to be the word of God rather than just turning away from it. ya know it's funny, when Christ came to the Jews they turned away from Him so fast because they had Moses and that was all they needed. they "knew" that He wasn't the Messiah and they didn't even attempt to learn from Him or hear Him out, because their minds were already made up. People grasp on to a single idea and hold onto it so much that they miss all of the other good things that have been given to them
Considering how long the Bible's been around compared to the lies the Mormons believe about how long their book has been around, I'm more inclined to believe that Mormonism is nothing short of Joseph Smith's nutjob creation. We've been through this before on these forums. At least the Bible is based on historical documents instead of magical glasses and mystical papers that have conveniently disappeared.
I'm a mormon.
For a few clarifications:
Nik: Who are you to know all that is known on carnal nature and the relationship that is to perfection? Is it not possible for man to overcome his carnal nature? What scares everyone so much about the phrase "As Man is, God once was. As God is, man may become"? Nik do you still run around sucking your thumb and letting your mommy change your diapers, or have you progressed past that point in life? That's a big part to life man, progression. Constantly getting better, overcoming obstacles and perfecting yourself. You GREW up from a child and your childish ideas. We CAN keep on growing...forever. Just like in this life, there are people who get old and are set in there ways and stop learning/growing. There are also people who are 85 years old and keep trying to get better. You don't HAVE to progress, it's a choice. (some old people don't believe they can change, others do)
Also, Satan was cast out because he sought to take the glory onto himself, rather then letting God take the glory. He was disobediant. Christ on the other hand said the glory to the father.
For a few clarifications:
Nik: Who are you to know all that is known on carnal nature and the relationship that is to perfection? Is it not possible for man to overcome his carnal nature? What scares everyone so much about the phrase "As Man is, God once was. As God is, man may become"? Nik do you still run around sucking your thumb and letting your mommy change your diapers, or have you progressed past that point in life? That's a big part to life man, progression. Constantly getting better, overcoming obstacles and perfecting yourself. You GREW up from a child and your childish ideas. We CAN keep on growing...forever. Just like in this life, there are people who get old and are set in there ways and stop learning/growing. There are also people who are 85 years old and keep trying to get better. You don't HAVE to progress, it's a choice. (some old people don't believe they can change, others do)
Also, Satan was cast out because he sought to take the glory onto himself, rather then letting God take the glory. He was disobediant. Christ on the other hand said the glory to the father.
Read through what Smith translated and tell me how a guy with very little education made all of that up.
Do you accept the fact that you have a carnal nature, Alienwho? Do you accept the fact that the carnal nature is a result of sin? Do you accept the fact that God is without sin? If you do, which you must if you've ever read the Bible, then you must also accept that the barrier between God and man is sin. Man cannot ever rid themselves of their carnal nature until death. Now, barring the childish insults, Alienwho, can you support the idea of man becoming God with passages from the Bible?
LtPage1
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Well, Joseph Smith was a conman who came up with a laughable story in order to have more than one wife.
On the other hand, it's a fantastic thing for people who adhere to it- great community, environment, everything. Every Mormon I've ever come into contact with has always been super-nice and fun to be around. If you can supress your common sense enough to accept the absurd premise of the whole thing enough to convert, I say go for it.
On the other hand, it's a fantastic thing for people who adhere to it- great community, environment, everything. Every Mormon I've ever come into contact with has always been super-nice and fun to be around. If you can supress your common sense enough to accept the absurd premise of the whole thing enough to convert, I say go for it.
if you understood the Atonement of Christ, than you would know that thru His sacrifice man can overcome the barrier between God. Why did Christ die? to over come sin. We have never claimed that we can personally overcome sin ourselves. We are Christians that believe in the Godhood of Jesus Christ, and that because of His sacrifice we can overcome sin and death.
you are totally missing the point of scripture. ya know you were really onto something with the "pray for guidance" idea, but although you said it, you dont believe it. why do you believe the Bible? because you are convinced, or because you have faith in it? from seeing your posts you obviously know the Bible, so remember what Christ said about signseekers. at one pint, it was historically and scientifically sound that the earth was the center of the universe. man eventually progressed in knowledge enough to find that false. we havent stopped learning and although people still want to live in the past and refuse to accept any new communication from God, doesnt mean that they arent happening
Through Christ's death, our sins our forgiven, but the carnal nature of man is not erased. It does not remove man's ability to sin. It does not mean that, even though man has the ability to sin, he never will. Quite simply, man cannot ever achieve "god" status, before or after death. We're simply wiped clean.
Christ had the ability to sin, He just chose not to. He was subject to all of the carnal things of being in the flesh. That is why He is so amazing. What is so spectacular about a sinless person who didnt have the ability to sin? now think of how amazing it is to have a person that was capable and tempted to sin, but never did
Yeah, I know it still happens. I still don't accept anything other than the Bible to be The Gospel, inspired by God.
just as nobody accepted Christ when he first came. im sure all those people will be surprised when they find out the truth though dont you think?
whole nother conversation you're getting into, but yeah
He was "all man" which made him subject to all of the carnal things of the flesh, but he was also "all god" which gave him the ability to deny those things. Christ was the Son of God and not just some random believer.
Yes, I'm sure they'll be surprised. However, that still doesn't give the Book of Mormon any credit.
we have the ability to resist sin dont we? you are never forced to sin. if the ability to resist temptaion is an attribute of Godhood well then you just said that you have that attribute. of course Christ was the Son of God. no one had the power to endure all of the pain that he did,and much less have the power to overcome sin and death for all mankind. that is where His Godhood came in, not in the fact that He just went His whole life without sinning. not discounting His sinlessness at all, because that is an amazing thing about Him, but technically any of us have the ability do that, but it just never happens because we are too weak, and we give into temptations.
Yes
This is tricky. Would you consider Lucifers act of treason to God carnal nature? He thirsted for power and for glory, is that carnal nature? Interestingly enough he didn't have a body and still seemed to posses a carnal nature. And besides that, what do you define as sin? One might define both sin and carnal nature the same as the willfull act of doing that which God does not permit. In which begs the question, is carnal nature a result of sin, or is sin a result of carnal nature? I admit that I don't know all the answers and cannot fully explain it. However I atleast try to think about it, do you?
Of course
This is where Christ comes into play. This allows a little thing called repentance, which allows you to rid yourself of the sin. (The whole basis for christian religion...)
Is that so? I'm not going to say either way, because in all honestly I don't know if it is possible to rid yourself of your carnal nature in this life... Many from middle eastern religions (Ghandi, for example) seem to get pretty close though.
And even if man couldn't rid himself of his carnal nature until death, you're still implying that death relieves man of his carnal nature (which I would think of as incorrect, because after death we are going to possess the same spirits we have now. Meaning you will think the same things and have the same desires) So you don't have to worry about converting in the next life Nik, cause you'll hate mormons there as much as you do here.
The bible is nothing more than a series of historical documents written and edited and changed countless times by imperfect men. If I could read an original document that was written in the original language by a prophet (or hey i'd even take a direct english translation from one of those original documents if it was another prophet or someone who has authority to act in God's name translate it correctly) i'd like to give that a whirl. This is where Joseph Smith can come into play though if you choose to believe he is a true prophet. Because a document like that does exist, it's called the book of mormon. Only difference is he got a pure scripture that was directly written by ancient prophets and completely untouched by the hand of man who have no authority to act in God's name. By the way, what are your opinion on ancient scripture such as the dead sea scrolls, or do you only accept books as sacred as long as a big group of catholic men all happened to agree on it (remember that big council?)
Also Nik, how similar are you to your blood father? I'm assuming you both have two eyes, a nose, two hands, walk upright and look kind of like each other.
and what credit does it give to the Bible? because it is more widely accepted than the Book of Mormon, so it must be true?
No, we don't have the ability to deny sin. You do understand what a "carnal nature" is, do you not? You are never forced to sin, but you cannot live your life without sin. No matter how hard you try, you will fail to avoid sin, which is why Christ's death on the cross was necessary. If men could avoid sin, Christ wouldn't have had to die.
I don't believe that man has the ability on his own to not sin. That's why man cannot ever be elevated to the same level as god, religion or not (obviously). We're saved by grace through faith, not by resisting sin.
I agree with most of your post. But that last sentance kills it. You must live by the "I ACCEPT JESUS! I'M SAVED" philosophy. This gives you the ability to sin all you want and not even try to escape it (read: lazy) because you claim you cannot (which is somewhat true, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try).
You are saved both by grace and trying to avoid sin. There is no other way. Claiming grace will not save you. (Remember when christ said there will be many who will call upon his name, but he won't hear them...I wonder why he won't hear them?) Actions are louder than words. Trying to resist sin is action.
So now you have the authority to judge how clean a man is?
That's getting into the whole anti-catholic thing with priests absolving sins, which is another conversation I don't hate mormons. I think Mormonism is funny because of how messed up it is. When did I say I hate mormons?
Slipping back into your reality-twisting habbits, I see? okay okay, cheap shot. I said that man cannot rid himself of his carnal nature before death. That in no way implies that death rids man of his carnal nature. If so, then there would be no reason to become saved in this life because you coulud just kill yourself and go to heaven.
I don't believe that God would be powerful enough to create the universe but not powerful enough to keep his Gospel pure. Divinely inspired, not divinely spoken and then fvcked up by man.
That doesn't mean we're similar. He was (yes, he's dead thank god) a horrible man. An abusive, violent, drug addict, alcoholic, promiscuous, liar, cheater, unfaithful, evil man. It's sad, but on his death bed he still embraced his evil self and I'm glad he's gone. Just because I may look like him doesn't mean I'm even a shadow of what he once was.
i could see how it would be convienient to say that you had no choice but to sin, but that's just not the way things work. God didn't put us down here to be victims of circumstance. he wants us to resist temptation and not sin. it makes sense. we DO have a choice whther we want to sin or not. you said that you arent into the predestination thing but what do you think you are implying? if we didnt have the ability to resist temptation and sin we are all predestined to come down here and just commit every sin in the book.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try, I'm just saying that, under your own power, you absolutely cannot succeed and never will be able to.
However, trying to avoid sin doesn't save you. There are plenty of "good people" in the world who aren't saved simply because they have not been redeemed "by grace through faith." Being a "good person" and trying to avoid sin simply isn't good enough. That's exactly what Christ was talking about when he said he would not "hear them" -people say "I'm a good person so I'm going to go to heaven" but they reject the teachings of Christ and refuse to submit and live their lives according to the will of God, right? Actions may be louder than words, but they still don't hold water to whether you're actually saved or not.
No no no. You do have a choice whether to sin or not, but you will choose to sin, under your own power. Don't put words into my mouth and don't read more into what I'm saying than exactly what I'm saying.
Also, I never said I'm not into the predestination thing. Wake up and smell the reading comprehension.
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