Mormons

[Bartino]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Bartino
i could see how it would be convienient to say that you had no choice but to sin, but that's just not the way things work. God didn't put us down here to be victims of circumstance. he wants us to resist temptation and not sin. it makes sense. we DO have a choice whther we want to sin or not. you said that you arent into the predestination thing but what do you think you are implying? if we didnt have the ability to resist temptation and sin we are all predestined to come down here and just commit every sin in the book.

No no no. You do have a choice whether to sin or not, but you will choose to sin, under your own power. Don't put words into my mouth and don't read more into what I'm saying than exactly what I'm saying.

Also, I never said I'm not into the predestination thing. Wake up and smell the reading comprehension.

haha. do you realize how ridiculous it sounds to say that you will choose to sin? who are you to say that 100% of the time i am always going to choose the wrong thing. everytime you choose to obey God you are choosing not to sin. everyone is tempted everyday and everytime someone resists that temptation and doesnt commit the sin, they are are choosing NOT to sin

now if you will direct your attention above so we dont have to address this again you will see that you said that we will always choose to sin which is totally incorrect, so now you see i havent put any words into your mouth

 

[Alienwho]

I don't believe that God would be powerful enough to create the universe but not powerful enough to keep his Gospel pure. Divinely inspired, not divinely spoken and then fvcked up by man.

But this is where the problem lies. If the Bible is so pure and perfect, there would only be ONE religion because it would be so cut and dry and the doctrines would be so obvious that no one could deny the word. But this isn't the case. People dispute over doctrines and create religions that agrees with their point of view.

And besides, how would God accomplish that? Strike every translator dead that wrote a word incorrectly? Why are there so many translations of the bible? Have you ever read the bible in another language? I'll tell you what if you do you are in for a ride because you will read some interesting stuff that says completely different things than in English. I've read it in both portuguese and spanish, and then don't even get me started that both those languages also have hundreds of translations of the bible.

I wish I could say the Bible is 100% pure, divine and contains the literal word of God that is so easy to understand that it's impossible to dispute with others. But it's not possible.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Bartino
haha. do you realize how ridiculous it sounds to say that you will choose to sin? who are you to say that 100% of the time i am always going to choose the wrong thing. everytime you choose to obey God you are choosing not to sin. everyone is tempted everyday and everytime someone resists that temptation and doesnt commit the sin, they are are choosing NOT to sin

No, I don't see how ridiculous it is. Are you saying that your carnal nature has the ability to resist sin? Are you saying that you do not need the redemption of Christ's death on the cross to be free of sin? Of course you're not saying that because that's more ridiculous than anything. Each sin that is resisted is not out of your own power. Can't you understand that? People who resist sin aren't doing it on their own.

now if you will direct your attention above so we dont have to address this again you will see that you said that we will always choose to sin which is totally incorrect, so now you see i havent put any words into your mouth

No, what we see here is that you're a complete moron and don't understand such simple concepts as "man must sin without the Holy Spirit's guidance, otherwise there's no point to Christianity."

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Alienwho
But this is where the problem lies. If the Bible is so pure and perfect, there would only be ONE religion because it would be so cut and dry and the doctrines would be so obvious that no one could deny the word. But this isn't the case. People dispute over doctrines and create religions that agrees with their point of view.

In order for that to happen, every man on the face of the planet must be willing to accept it. Obviously, there are people in the world who refuse to accept it, so that isn't the case. Man has a free will -we're not robots, so of course even something as pure and perfect as The Gospel is going to be rejected by man.

And besides, how would God accomplish that? Strike every translator dead that wrote a word incorrectly? Why are there so many translations of the bible? Have you ever read the bible in another language? I'll tell you what if you do you are in for a ride because you will read some interesting stuff that says completely different things than in English. I've read it in both portuguese and spanish, and then don't even get me started that both those languages also have hundreds of translations of the bible.

I've not read it in any other language, but I've done quite a bit of word study using the original greek wording. Not saying that gives me any credibility to say that the Bible is true, complete, and without error, but I simply choose to believe that if God is powerful enough to create everything, he'd probably be powerful enough to anticipate translational and interpretational errors. Hell, people interpret the Bible and twist it to fit their own agenda, but they wouldn't be doing so if they were praying for guidance in interpretation.

I wish I could say the Bible is 100% pure, divine and contains the literal word of God that is so easy to understand that it's impossible to dispute with others. But it's not possible.

Right, I know. However, if you choose to believe that God is the Almighty, then you must believe that the Bible is flawless.

 

[Bartino]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Bartino
haha. do you realize how ridiculous it sounds to say that you will choose to sin? who are you to say that 100% of the time i am always going to choose the wrong thing. everytime you choose to obey God you are choosing not to sin. everyone is tempted everyday and everytime someone resists that temptation and doesnt commit the sin, they are are choosing NOT to sin

No, I don't see how ridiculous it is. Are you saying that your carnal nature has the ability to resist sin? Are you saying that you do not need the redemption of Christ's death on the cross to be free of sin? Of course you're not saying that because that's more ridiculous than anything. Each sin that is resisted is not out of your own power. Can't you understand that? People who resist sin aren't doing it on their own.

now if you will direct your attention above so we dont have to address this again you will see that you said that we will always choose to sin which is totally incorrect, so now you see i havent put any words into your mouth

No, what we see here is that you're a complete moron and don't understand such simple concepts as "man must sin without the Holy Spirit's guidance, otherwise there's no point to Christianity."

the most ridiculous thing here is that you are saying that you personally as a son of God cannot resist the temptation to sin. basically a scapegoat if you look at. aside from sin there is no way we can overcome death which was done by Jesus Christ. Speaking of putting words in other mouths, where on earth did you get the statement i made about not needing Christ? all i said was that when faced with a tempation you can go two ways. obey God and not sin, or give in and commit a sin. why is that such a hard concept? give yourself some credit. you can choose not to sin when you are tempted. it is completely ludicrous to think that everytime one is tempted that they have NO choice but to sin. you are right, our nature is nothing compared to the perfect nature of God, but He did give us the ability to choose, and He wants us to use it wisely and make right choices rather than sin, and not just blame every bad decision we make on our "carnal nature"

 

[Gooberlx2]

Well, the only rumour I've heard from a group of mormon guys is that the girls are super-sloots up until marriage. And then they don't put out.
*shrug*

 

[Bartino]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2
Well, the only rumour I've heard from a group of mormon guys is that the girls are super-sloots up until marriage. And then they don't put out.
*shrug*

haha :thumbsup: just kidding

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Bartino
the most ridiculous thing here is that you are saying that you personally as a son of God cannot resist the temptation to sin.

Right, because you cannot. YOU cannot. You, on your own, without the help of God, cannot resist sin. I thought such basic concepts were taught to preschoolers in sunday school.

basically a scapegoat if you look at. aside from sin there is no way we can overcome death which was done by Jesus Christ. Speaking of putting words in other mouths, where on earth did you get the statement i made about not needing Christ?

I didn't state that you said as much, I asked you a fvcking question you retard!

all i said was that when faced with a tempation you can go two ways. obey God and not sin, or give in and commit a sin.

Right, I agree. However, without the help of Christ, you will commit sin. There's no two ways about that. If you DID have the abitlity to resist sin out of your own power, you wouldn't NEED Christ's death on the cross to wash away sins because you wouldn't HAVE any sins in the first place. Get it?

why is that such a hard concept? give yourself some credit. you can choose not to sin when you are tempted.

Agreed. However, you never will.

it is completely ludicrous to think that everytime one is tempted that they have NO choice but to sin.

How many times do I have to say the opposite? It's been a really really long time since I've met someone this dense.

you are right, our nature is nothing compared to the perfect nature of God, but He did give us the ability to choose, and He wants us to use it wisely and make right choices rather than sin, and not just blame every bad decision we make on our "carnal nature"

Well, considering our sin is the result of our carnal nature, what else are you going to blame it on? The shifting winds?

 

[Alienwho]

Right, I know. However, if you choose to believe that God is the Almighty, then you must believe that the Bible is flawless.

I couldn't possibly disagree more. I just don't understand how you can think that. The bible was arranged and created by MAN. How can it possibly be flawless? God did not write the bible. He called prophets, who wrote their teachings. Those teachings were then taken and manipulated by man to fit their own agenda. Man kept the teachings they agreed with, threw the rest out, and slapped the title "Bible" on it.

The bible is not the word of God....Scriptures are the word of God, and scriptures are NUMEROUS. It just so happens that man took a bunch of scriptures they liked and binded them together and called it the bible. Who is to say that it's complete and contains everything that God ever wanted to say to man? What's the deal with all the new scripture they're finding over there in the middle east and how does that relate to the bible? It's fascinating really.

 

[Alienwho]

why is that such a hard concept? give yourself some credit. you can choose not to sin when you are tempted.

Agreed. However, you never will. .

What? That is rediculous! How can you even say that? You are saying that you will NEVER choose not to sin when tempted? Man you are really setting yourself up to fail. Above you claimed that we are not robots, and we have free agency (which i agree with completely) However you just contradicted yourself with that phrase. If we will NEVER choose not to sin when having the chance, that means we have no free agency, and will always choose to sin.

 

[Bartino]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Bartino
the most ridiculous thing here is that you are saying that you personally as a son of God cannot resist the temptation to sin.

Right, because you cannot. YOU cannot. You, on your own, without the help of God, cannot resist sin. I thought such basic concepts were taught to preschoolers in sunday school.

basically a scapegoat if you look at. aside from sin there is no way we can overcome death which was done by Jesus Christ. Speaking of putting words in other mouths, where on earth did you get the statement i made about not needing Christ?

I didn't state that you said as much, I asked you a fvcking question you retard!

all i said was that when faced with a tempation you can go two ways. obey God and not sin, or give in and commit a sin.

Right, I agree. However, without the help of Christ, you will commit sin. There's no two ways about that. If you DID have the abitlity to resist sin out of your own power, you wouldn't NEED Christ's death on the cross to wash away sins because you wouldn't HAVE any sins in the first place. Get it?

why is that such a hard concept? give yourself some credit. you can choose not to sin when you are tempted.

Agreed. However, you never will.

it is completely ludicrous to think that everytime one is tempted that they have NO choice but to sin.

How many times do I have to say the opposite? It's been a really really long time since I've met someone this dense.

you are right, our nature is nothing compared to the perfect nature of God, but He did give us the ability to choose, and He wants us to use it wisely and make right choices rather than sin, and not just blame every bad decision we make on our "carnal nature"

Well, considering our sin is the result of our carnal nature, what else are you going to blame it on? The shifting winds?

well now that you have resorted to middle school insults i think it is pretty easy to see where your arguments are coming from. Here's the deal: We all need Christ to overcome sin and death, thru our own chice and you are right, the power of Christ, we can shoose not to sin, and lastly, the Bible is based on revelations given to prophets, not historical documents. Prophets will always relay the true word of God unbiased. God never stopped calling prophets and they are here today so it's probably best to seek them out. in the end though it is whatever floats your boat. Nik i do think that you have found great strength in your religious beliefs and i aplaude you for that because most people just dont even bother with them. just do whats best for you and that's cool. just know that it never helps to talk bad about another religion. Christ never did, and i am sure that you are trying to be like Him. anyways, i am not really in the mood to go back and forth all day, so this is it for me

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Alienwho

Right, I know. However, if you choose to believe that God is the Almighty, then you must believe that the Bible is flawless.

I couldn't possibly disagree more. I just don't understand how you can think that. The bible was arranged and created by MAN. How can it possibly be flawless? God did not write the bible. He called prophets, who wrote their teachings. Those teachings were then taken and manipulated by man to fit their own agenda. Man kept the teachings they agreed with, threw the rest out, and slapped the title "Bible" on it.

The bible is not the word of God....Scriptures are the word of God, and scriptures are NUMEROUS. It just so happens that man took a bunch of scriptures they liked and binded them together and called it the bible. Who is to say that it's complete and contains everything that God ever wanted to say to man? What's the deal with all the new scripture they're finding over there in the middle east and how does that relate to the bible? It's fascinating really.

It wasn't created by man, it was divinely inspired by God. If you don't understand all that the concept entails, that's cool. Say as much so we can clearly establish the weight that "divinely inspired" carries. The Bible being divinely inspired makes it flawless. I don't believe that the Bible is man's teachings at all. I believe the Bible to be the literal word of god, simply written with man's hands.

I don't believe the Bible is the first, last, and only thing that God has to say to man. I believe God speaks to the heart of man through a personal relationship with him, but I also don't believe that idea can become the excuse for a million other things written by man and passed off as written by God. Sure, that opens up the arguments back and forth of what's really inspired by God and what's conjured up by man, but there's always one good way to check and that's prayer and fasting. Ask God. He'll tell you. I'm not arrogant enough to preach that nothing but the Bible is true, but it's what I've come to believe.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Alienwho

why is that such a hard concept? give yourself some credit. you can choose not to sin when you are tempted.

Agreed. However, you never will. .

What? That is rediculous! How can you even say that? You are saying that you will NEVER choose not to sin when tempted? Man you are really setting yourself up to fail. Above you claimed that we are not robots, and we have free agency (which i agree with completely) However you just contradicted yourself with that phrase. If we will NEVER choose not to sin when having the chance, that means we have no free agency, and will always choose to sin.

Sigh.

You have the ability to choose; it's called free will. You also have a carnal nature which will always persuade you to sin. That's why you become saved and pray for help to avoid sin. Am I speaking some unknown language here?

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: Alienwho

Right, I know. However, if you choose to believe that God is the Almighty, then you must believe that the Bible is flawless.

I couldn't possibly disagree more. I just don't understand how you can think that. The bible was arranged and created by MAN. How can it possibly be flawless? God did not write the bible. He called prophets, who wrote their teachings. Those teachings were then taken and manipulated by man to fit their own agenda. Man kept the teachings they agreed with, threw the rest out, and slapped the title "Bible" on it.

The bible is not the word of God....Scriptures are the word of God, and scriptures are NUMEROUS. It just so happens that man took a bunch of scriptures they liked and binded them together and called it the bible. Who is to say that it's complete and contains everything that God ever wanted to say to man? What's the deal with all the new scripture they're finding over there in the middle east and how does that relate to the bible? It's fascinating really.

Scriptures written down by MAN, no? How are you so certain scriptures are exactly as God intended but not the Bible? I suspect you will say God took care of that, which is exactly what Nik is saying about the canon and translations and such.

edit: spelling

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: Bartino
i drink pepsi and mountain dew and there is nothing wrong with that. people assume that since we dont drink coffee that it is ALL caffinated stuff.

Surprise surprise, I bet you rent from Blockbuster too.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Bartino
Here's the deal: We all need Christ to overcome sin and death

Stop right there. I completely agree. We NEED Christ to overcome sin and death. Therefore, we cannot do it on our own. THEREFORE, we will ALWAYS sin without help. Make sense, for the millionth time? Yes. K. Moving on.

thru our own chice and you are right, the power of Christ, we can shoose not to sin, and lastly, the Bible is based on revelations given to prophets, not historical documents. Prophets will always relay the true word of God unbiased. God never stopped calling prophets and they are here today so it's probably best to seek them out. in the end though it is whatever floats your boat. Nik i do think that you have found great strength in your religious beliefs and i aplaude you for that because most people just dont even bother with them. just do whats best for you and that's cool. just know that it never helps to talk bad about another religion. Christ never did, and i am sure that you are trying to be like Him. anyways, i am not really in the mood to go back and forth all day, so this is it for me

God divinely inspires prophet. Prophet writes sh|t down. Sh|t written down is historical document. :frown: Not that hard.

Who said God DID stop using prophets? Did I? Wait, no. Did you? I dunno, who the hell said God stopped using prophets? Where the hell did that come from?

Christ talked trash about other religions all the time. He constantly rebuked even Christians because they were full of sh|t. Christ was one hell of a badass. Remember the whole Jews wanting him dead thing?

 

[Bartino]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: Bartino
i drink pepsi and mountain dew and there is nothing wrong with that. people assume that since we dont drink coffee that it is ALL caffinated stuff.

Surprise surprise, I bet you rent from Blockbuster too.

whatever that's supposed to mean... welcome to the thread by the way, maybe next time have something useful to say huh?

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: thepd7
edit: spelling

haha yew R teh cann0t speeling yet grammer.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: Bartino

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: Bartino
i drink pepsi and mountain dew and there is nothing wrong with that. people assume that since we dont drink coffee that it is ALL caffinated stuff.

Surprise surprise, I bet you rent from Blockbuster too.

whatever that's supposed to mean... welcome to the thread by the way, maybe next time have something useful to say huh?

Mountain Dew and Pepsi (obviously) are Pepsi products. LDS has stock in both Pepsi and Blockbuster. Just making a reference to the business deals of the LDS. A lot of mormons I know were very rejoiceful when their church got stock in pepsi and drank it like water, and yet still had quite the moral (yes, moral) aversion to coke products. Seems hypocritical to me.

Now whether or not that's all true, and whether or not the LDS ever really looked down upon caffiene. It seems mormons (at least the ones outside of the Utah motherland) are subject to the same misconceptions and rumors as everyone else.

 

[Alienwho]

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: Alienwho

Right, I know. However, if you choose to believe that God is the Almighty, then you must believe that the Bible is flawless.

I couldn't possibly disagree more. I just don't understand how you can think that. The bible was arranged and created by MAN. How can it possibly be flawless? God did not write the bible. He called prophets, who wrote their teachings. Those teachings were then taken and manipulated by man to fit their own agenda. Man kept the teachings they agreed with, threw the rest out, and slapped the title "Bible" on it.

The bible is not the word of God....Scriptures are the word of God, and scriptures are NUMEROUS. It just so happens that man took a bunch of scriptures they liked and binded them together and called it the bible. Who is to say that it's complete and contains everything that God ever wanted to say to man? What's the deal with all the new scripture they're finding over there in the middle east and how does that relate to the bible? It's fascinating really.

Scriptures written down by MAN, no? How are you so certain scriptures are exactly as God intended but not the Bible? I suspect you will say God took care of that, which is exactly what Nik is saying about the canon and translations and such.

edit: spelling

No I would say the Vessels that God chose to use to write that down were just that: Chosen Vessels, and not random guys that took it upon themselves to translate which was already written by the chosen vessels.

I understand where Nik is coming from. I just could never accept a book as 100% divine and perfect that was organized by a bunch of self appointed men to keep the parts they like and toss the parts they don't. This is why prophets are so important. I could level with you a little more if you believed those men were prophets and actually chosen by God to arrange the bible and select the scripture most needed for the human race. But if that's the case there would have been no need for a big debate in the first place. "I'll see your Selling of indulgences, and raise you Three Hail Mary's for commiting the unavoidable sin of rape (because hey, you're bound to be put in that situation sooner or later, and you'll never be able to avoid it, 3 hail mary's should be enough to take care of that.)

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

So you do not think that, perhaps, they were not self-appointed? Not saying either way, because I don't have a freakin farkin clue, but it is entirely possible that God was more involved than "here, I'm going to pick you to listen and write down all this crap I have to say."

 

[Alienwho]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: Bartino

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: Bartino
i drink pepsi and mountain dew and there is nothing wrong with that. people assume that since we dont drink coffee that it is ALL caffinated stuff.

Surprise surprise, I bet you rent from Blockbuster too.

whatever that's supposed to mean... welcome to the thread by the way, maybe next time have something useful to say huh?

Mountain Dew and Pepsi (obviously) are Pepsi products. LDS has stock in both Pepsi and Blockbuster. Just making a reference to the business deals of the LDS. A lot of mormons I know were very rejoiceful when their church got stock in pepsi and drank it like water, and yet still had quite the moral (yes, moral) aversion to coke products. Seems hypocritical to me.

Now whether or not that's all true, and whether or not the LDS ever really looked down upon caffiene. It seems mormons (at least the ones outside of the Utah motherland) are subject to the same misconceptions and rumors as everyone else.

Hahaha. That's unbelievable. "A lot of mormons I know were rejoiceful when their church got stock in pepsi" Yeah right. I'm willing to bet .01% of members of the church actually know what the church has stock in. But that's okay you obviously know that .01% that stays on top of it.

Any member of the church you know who has a moral disaproval of coke and drink pepsi like water because "the church has stock in it" is a complete moron.

BTW dr. pepper FTW.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

How can the church not know what it has stock in? Hell I'm not a mormon and even I knew that. It's not like it's some big secret. However, there is some level of validity to what you're saying. Many mormons don't even understand the silly things their religion is founded on that the higherarchy of the church is hiding from them

man, sometimes it's just fun to try starting sh|t with people. :laugh: Ignore this post.

 

[Alienwho]

Originally posted by: Nik
So you do not think that, perhaps, they were not self-appointed? Not saying either way, because I don't have a freakin farkin clue, but it is entirely possible that God was more involved than "here, I'm going to pick you to listen and write down all this crap I have to say."

I believe that they were all self appointed, because there were no prophets on the earth at that time (that we're aware of, maybe somewhere deep in the middle of china God had a prophet leading some locals?) Prophets make themselves known.

I do however believe that it's actually a miracle that the bible came out as good as it did, and I won't say that God didn't influence men. I think God influences men even when there is no prophet to lead and direct them, and he can do this to prepare a way for a prophet perhaps. I'll bet Martin Luther was getting some serious thoughts from God when he was writing his Theses, that however didn't make Martin Luther a prophet or give him authority to call his branched off Lutherin church God's true church. But he sure helped to open up peoples minds and think about what was going on, which was a 'preparation' stage.

 

[Scarpozzi]

My mother grew up in the mormon church in Maine. Of course, I believe that was because it was the closest church to her farm and that meant it was a shorter walk in the snow.

My cousin actually works at the gates of the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City....if you ever go there, try to find him. His name is Norman, the Mormon Doorman. (that's my obligatory joke)

But seriously, if you do make it to the tabernacle....it's pretty awesome. I've known quite a few mormons since the majority of Novell, Inc. are mormons. They're cool folks, but many don't drink...and those that do are very careful with doing things out in the open for others to see.