Morgan Freeman joins the list

[momeNt]

If this all more or less happened once he was in his 70s. Then it's not an abuse of power, it's an abuse of being what many see as the harmless old man. They see tits or a pair of legs and all of a sudden they are asking to look up their skirt, motorboat, or promise to leave their wife and take them on a vacation.

He's a perv, would I protest until he loses his job? No. Would I protest chemical or physical castration? Also, no.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Yep. Right or wrong it sounded like flirting really.

 

[kage69]

Everything with you is divided into liberal and conservative.

Tribal lizard brains have trouble dealing with things that aren't binary, and they've been groomed by an effective noise machine that's been running for the last 30-odd years. 2008 rattled conservatives so much we're still dealing with their insecurities and fears from that.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Stop apologizing for shit like this (from the original article).

"In one incident, she said, Freeman "kept trying to lift up my skirt and asking if I was wearing underwear." He never successfully lifted her skirt, she said -- he would touch it and try to lift it, she would move away, and then he'd try again. Eventually, she said, "Alan [Arkin] made a comment telling him to stop. Morgan got freaked out and didn't know what to say."

That's not a description of "toying with the hem of some woman's dress". No if's, ands or buts, it's the behaviour of a creep.

I get it. You like the guy. Too bad. Like whatever he's done that's 'good' but he's apparently a creep. <shrug>

I hear you, but so far -- from the posted link -- I've got to ask "was any of Freeman's behavior criminal?" Today, Weinstein "turned himself in." With people like Weinstein and Cosby, we have date-rape and simply rape. Calling those two "creeps" is an understatement. They're criminals.

For the anecdotal accounts of Freeman's behavior, where does the punishment end? And just exactly what is being punished? If someone wants to charge him with something, I'll give it more recognition.

And I still have to ask myself, in regard to our Traitor-in-Chief, if I'm being too eager to convict him of . . . whatever he did. Certainly, he's a creep. I want to see someone charge him with a crime. But the issue is whether what he did amounts to criminal violation. We suspect a whole s***pile of other things about him that are possibly seriously criminal or treasonous. Can he be charged and convicted with rape?

If not, there are plenty of other fish to fry there. As for Freeman, where does being a dirty old man end, and being a rapist or sex-criminal begin?

 

[zinfamous]

At the rate we're going there'll be nothing left in the entertainment industry other than Carrot Top.

Maybe Carrot Top isn't the celebrity we need, but he's the celebrity we deserve.

 

[UglyCasanova]

I hear you, but so far -- from the posted link -- I've got to ask "was any of Freeman's behavior criminal?" Today, Weinstein "turned himself in." With people like Weinstein and Cosby, we have date-rape and simply rape. Calling those two "creeps" is an understatement. They're criminals.

For the anecdotal accounts of Freeman's behavior, where does the punishment end? And just exactly what is being punished? If someone wants to charge him with something, I'll give it more recognition.

And I still have to ask myself, in regard to our Traitor-in-Chief, if I'm being too eager to convict him of . . . whatever he did. Certainly, he's a creep. I want to see someone charge him with a crime. But the issue is whether what he did amounts to criminal violation. We suspect a whole s***pile of other things about him that are possibly seriously criminal or treasonous. Can he be charged and convicted with rape?

If not, there are plenty of other fish to fry there. As for Freeman, where does being a dirty old man end, and being a rapist or sex-criminal begin?

#metoo (rightly imo) isn’t just about whether someone can be charger. Some of what women go through isn’t necessarily criminal but is immoral, and public shaming has been the tool of choice to right the moral compass. Unfortunately when dealing with something so subjective it gets a little messy. Does the end justify the means? I dunno, I don’t think there’s necessarily a right answer.

 

[soulcougher73]

Gonna need proof other than someone’s word that this is what happened. Hard to get behind anything that boils down to he said/she said, especially if it turns out to be false and someone’s career and life are destroyed over it.

I’ll await the trial and verdict.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Gonna need proof other than someone’s word that this is what happened. Hard to get behind anything that boils down to he said/she said, especially if it turns out to be false and someone’s career and life are destroyed over it.

I’ll await the trial and verdict.

That’s all any of the #metoo movement has been is he said/she said.

 

[Victorian Gray]

I hear you, but so far -- from the posted link -- I've got to ask "was any of Freeman's behavior criminal?" Today, Weinstein "turned himself in." With people like Weinstein and Cosby, we have date-rape and simply rape. Calling those two "creeps" is an understatement. They're criminals.

For the anecdotal accounts of Freeman's behavior, where does the punishment end? And just exactly what is being punished? If someone wants to charge him with something, I'll give it more recognition.

And I still have to ask myself, in regard to our Traitor-in-Chief, if I'm being too eager to convict him of . . . whatever he did. Certainly, he's a creep. I want to see someone charge him with a crime. But the issue is whether what he did amounts to criminal violation. We suspect a whole s***pile of other things about him that are possibly seriously criminal or treasonous. Can he be charged and convicted with rape?

If not, there are plenty of other fish to fry there. As for Freeman, where does being a dirty old man end, and being a rapist or sex-criminal begin?

Wow, the guy isn't, as far as we know, a rapist. Great! Congratulations! Let's have a fucking party to celebrate! He is still an apparent creep. His behavior as described is completely unacceptable.

 

[pmv]

I for one don't really care. Dude is still a great actor with a great voice. Lots of people on reddit are getting bent out of shape, but this is just another example that you shouldn't worship celebrities. Learn to separate them from their work and they're just like the guy next door who you really don't care about.

It's a real challenge to do that sometimes, yet it does seem to be necessary. If you can't consume the work of people who have said or done something awful, it could really become quite difficult to consume anything at all. Huge numbers of 'artists' of all kinds have said or done some unpleasant things.

It's really tough though, especially with work that is closely linked to the performer's personality. I suppose it's not such a problem to use a bridge or a building where the engineer or architect was a perv or a nazi, but it's surely a continuum? Or is it just a matter of whether the person is still alive and earning money from the product?

 

[interchange]

I think this is a fine example of what the #metoo movement is about. I wish I could say overt violation was uncommon, but nonetheless the things that everyone agrees are monstrous need less discussion and more empowerment to act upon. This, however, is representative of a culture that is harmful to women and extends along others who are on the bottom end of a power dynamic. It has been perpetuated by a general societal collusion to look the other way, leading women like those alleging misconduct by Freeman simply choosing to minimize their individual burden. To me, the most important part of this story is when Arkin made a comment prompting him to stop. This is what I hope to see more of out of #metoo. It's not about policy, going after the bad guys, legal protections and corporate hiring practices, etc. Simply a cultural attitude where that behavior is not appropriate and will be confronted when encountered. For all but criminal predators, merely saying something about it is an effective intervention. If the group reinforces that behavior and recognizes their awareness of someone's creepiness, that social paradigm will deflate the power dynamic and make clear to would-be harassers the boundary between appropriate and inappropriate behavior. This attitude will also help people who have been criminally assaulted to come forward.

 

[UglyCasanova]

To me, the most important part of this story is when Arkin made a comment prompting him to stop.

And he stopped. If he didn’t it would be more of a story, but this seems pretty murky. Signals come off wrong and one person thinks they are flirting more than the other.

 

[SNC]

And if that was your wife? Your daughter? Your mother? Your sister? Your friend? Same reaction?

That's not a description of "toying with the hem of some woman's dress". No if's, ands or buts, it's the behaviour of a creep.

I get it. You like the guy. Too bad. Like whatever he's done that's 'good' but he's apparently a creep. <shrug>

Wow, the guy isn't, as far as we know, a rapist. Great! Congratulations! Let's have a fucking party to celebrate! He is still an apparent creep. His behavior as described is completely unacceptable.

I did a quick search and I could not find the same sentiment from you when Bill is being discussed. I wonder why that is... Ahh yes Bill was just sitting in his office and noticed a warm wet sensation in his groin and thought nothing of it, here it turned out that Monica was unbeknownst to him hiding under his desk - to shy to actually say that she wanted to suck his cock, she thought it was be better for all concerned if she just took the Bill by the cock and start to suckin'. Why she would have thought Bill would have been OK with it, seeing as how he never commented on her good looks or ample bosom and always was the consummate gentleman is a mystery. Isn't it funny how one person can do something and it's the end of the fucking world and another person can do much worse and its 'mind your own business it's his personal life'. So for fun let's contrast what the women have said that Morgan said and did with what it took Bill to say or do to get Monica to suck his cock and take a stogie up her twat on the oval office. If done right it should be a fucking HOOT!!!

 

[interchange]

And he stopped. If he didn’t it would be more of a story, but this seems pretty murky. Signals come off wrong and one person thinks they are flirting more than the other.

Freeman's behavior (if accurate as alleged) was inappropriate full-stop. Doesn't mean it was criminal. He does not need to engage in criminal behavior to be an example of someone gaining an advantage from a power dynamic that our culture does not think is right but has for a long time agreed to look the other way on. Thus, the appropriate intervention is to not look the other way. And, as you can see, that intervention is effective for people with conscience about their behavior. Freeman's choice to cease the behavior doesn't make the question of it's appropriateness murky. Freeman himself examined the behavior and realized it was inappropriate once it was pointed out to him. He settled the murkiness through his own conscience. You don't need to question it all over again.

Personally, I'm wondering if your conflict over this here more relates to challenges in knowing how to respond to his behavior than whether the behavior itself was appropriate. Or possibly some challenges within you in finding the line between flirtation and harassment in your own possible behavior.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Monica wasn’t somebody's daughter though. Big difference

 

[SNC]

In the late '70s, I happened to be passing a young woman in an office building hallway, and I leaned over and whispered "I'd like to lick your panties until the seam falls out . . . " I certainly got in trouble for it -- it was a lesson I had to learn. I was warned.

I said a similar thing - I'd like to put you on a plate and sopp you up with a biscuit - to my assigned psychologist in the mid to late 80's I ended up with her on a park bench after dark naked with a 5th of jack doing all sorts of things a patient and Dr. should not be doing together. So not all "negative" things are received badly. Unfortunately we were caught after a guard saw her unlocking the side door to let me back in and was fired. I never saw her again. Ahh to be 15 again!

 

[SNC]

Seeing how many women try to squeeze their ex-husbands for more money, it is not really surprising that they do the same thing with a celebrity. How many women put themselves into the position for possible extortion later? Did those women who went up to Cosbys hotel room think he was going to tell them jokes all night? Granted he should not have drugged them, but the outcome was pretty much the same, they still got screwed. In the current world, a man must be very careful how he speaks to a woman, asks her out, flirts, or asks to have sex with, or else she will be sueing him 20 years later.

I'm not even going this far.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Personally, I'm wondering if your conflict over this here more relates to challenges in knowing how to respond to his behavior than whether the behavior itself was appropriate.

Nah I don’t care about Freeman one way or the other, I think that’d be safe to say about any actor really. And there’s been a lot of #metoo I’ve supported, and I definitely support the idea of cultural shifts away from male dominance and recognize the plight of women for...ever. But we can’t get to the point where flirtation requires signature and such. I recognize that human interaction between the sexes gets messy and it’s easy to think the other party is more into it than they are. Like I said signals get mixed. No one says “would you like to flirt with me" except maybe the nerds on this forum.

Point being that it’s tough to label it simply as wrong, what it sounds like is he was reading her wrong and that inevitably happens to all of us. I have no doubt that every single person on this forum has had interactions with women that could be #metoo-ed. Should all of our lives be ruined?

 

[SNC]

Everything with you is divided into liberal and conservative.

You can't be saying that you dont do the same thing, are you?

 

[mikeymikec]

It's a real challenge to do that sometimes, yet it does seem to be necessary. If you can't consume the work of people who have said or done something awful, it could really become quite difficult to consume anything at all. Huge numbers of 'artists' of all kinds have said or done some unpleasant things.

@snoopy7548

The problem with this argument and "separating them from their work" is that both put such people on pedestals, which is apparently what you want to avoid.

IMO the only time where "separating them from their work" is appropriate is when the separation is from a fairly innocuous yet negative character trait, like say the person has a short temper, argumentative, etc. However, in more extreme scenarios such as MF's here: As soon as you start separating a socially unacceptable behaviour from the artist, you're putting them on a pedestal, because you're allowing them to indulge in behaviours that you wouldn't let other people get away with.

A meta problem I have with both of your arguments is that they're typically used by people who want to turn a blind eye to unacceptable behaviour because it's personally convenient (in your cases this is possibly for consumerist reasons, in other cases because they're OK with the behaviour exhibited by the celebrity).

----

The only argument I'll apply to the other end of the scale of this general topic is that let's say a friend of yours is engaging in one bit of behaviour like MF was accused of with the skirt-lifting incident. You or one of your friends tells him to knock it off, and that's the end of it. A celebrity in the accused's place however gets potentially ripped a new one in the press about it and all kinds of assumptions run riot ("where there's smoke, there's fire"). I'm raising this as a hypothetical one-off, I'm also acknowledging that with MF though there's more than one accusation and more than one incident so it's not the same thing and should not be treated as such.

 

[interchange]

Nah I don’t care about Freeman one way or the other, I think that’d be safe to say about any actor really. And there’s been a lot of #metoo I’ve supported, and I definitely support the idea of cultural shifts away from male dominance and recognize the plight of women for...ever. But we can’t get to the point where flirtation requires signature and such. I recognize that human interaction between the sexes gets messy and it’s easy to think the other party is more into it than they are. Like I said signals get mixed. No one says “would you like to flirt with me" except maybe the nerds on this forum.

Point being that it’s tough to label it simply as wrong, what it sounds like is he was reading her wrong and that inevitably happens to all of us. I have no doubt that every single person on this forum has had interactions with women that could be #metoo-ed. Should all of our lives be ruined?

You demonstrate both of the things I was curious about in your defense. You state the difficulty defining the line for inappropriate behavior and you state conflict over the response being life ruined.

I don't think that this behavior should equate to life-ruin whatsoever. For Freeman, given his status and our current social paradigm, it may very well do so. It should not, although he shouldn't escape consequence either. For the typical Joe, though, someone calling you out for harassing a co-worker should be limited to that unless the behavior is damaging or persistent despite intervention.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Everyone is guilty of doing bad things. If we only consume from "good" people (the word "assholes" seems to have taken root on here for someone who isn’t actually guilty of anything legally but may have waded into morally murky waters) there would be no one to consume from. We’d have to go to robot actors and producers. Everyone posting in this thread has done something they could be called out on.

 

[brycejones]

That’s all any of the #metoo movement has been is he said/she said.

Well that's a pretty abject denial of reality. Since we're looking at Weinstein being charged, Cosby convicted, others admitting to their bad behavior. It would seem to be far beyond nothing more than he said/she said.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Well that's a pretty abject denial of reality. Since we're looking at Weinstein being charged, Cosby convicted, others admitting to their bad behavior. It would seem to be far beyond nothing more than he said/she said.

Are there videos? I don’t doubt they did do it, but what evidence could possibly exist. It’s he said/she+she+she...said but at the end of the day everything just boils down to having to believe accusations.

 

[brycejones]

Are there videos? I don’t doubt they did do it, but what evidence could possibly exist. It’s he said/she+she+she...said but at the end of the day everything just boils down to having to believe accusations.

You don't doubt it, but you're very concerned. I hope if you have children you encourage them to video their entire lives since it appears that is your only acceptable standard of evidence.

And way to skip right past the cases where men admitted the allegations were accurate. She said/he admitted seems like pretty damn good evidence.