More violent rhetoric and hatred in the Muslim world

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I don't exactly support the kind of protests we're seeing here, but I think two things are important here.

1) People asking for examples of Muslims reacting normally to things like this, how about this situation? People are focusing on the protestors instead of the vastly large number of Muslims who might have been slightly offended and gone about their business. This doesn't mean the protestors aren't a problem, but making this about their entire religion seems a bit strange to me. Of course it happens every time any Muslims do anything, perhaps people are simply trying to justify their religious bigotry? Yes, this kind of thing does tend to bring out crazy Muslims in a way that similar situations don't seem to affect other world religions. But that simply means that a nutbag religious person is more likely to be a Muslims, it doesn't mean a Muslim is more likely to be a nutbag. As some poster said, they are about 20% of the world's population, the vast, VAST majority of whom aren't calling for jihad or another 9/11. I realize this is harder to think about than finding a group it's PC to hate, but just try, trust me.

2) Has anyone thought that maybe their reaction has something to do with their situation in the world? There are a lot of them, but as a society they mostly have no power at all. Their countries are ruled by repressive regimes, and they aren't all that hot stuff to being with. Isn't it possible that the reason Christians don't react like this is that Christians HAVE most of the power in the world? Look at how nuts certain US Christians are getting over Christmas...and they have the vast majority of the power and influence in this country. Imagine if they were some powerless minority? I'm not saying there would be calls for holy war, but I'm not sure it would be too far off either.

None of this excuses the violent extremists. But it should make you think about the big picture, someone very few people seem to be doing.

I think that many posters are focusing on other forum posters and their belief that free speech should be restricted to blasphemy, not on the protestors.

Perfect example of people not thinking about the big picture. Do you even think the protest is caused by this isolated incident in Danmark? No it is not. It is the eruption of years of conflicts and hatred that's been going on from both side. You people just want to talk about BS freedom of speech. Number 1, freedom of speech doesn't protect those that will incite violent and disruptions. Just like US won't tolerate people making racial comments in major newpaper.

It's just dumb comments one after the other all saying how Islamic faith is violent and use this opportunity to support their view. All these biased views just gonna further divide the West and Muslim. Like I said, I am chinese and I can careless if the West and Muslim start killing each other. Just feel it's human tragedy for all that after all these years of technological advances, people would still rather talk about how right they are and how uncivilized the others are, instead of thinking about constructive solution to end the conflict.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Perfect example of people not thinking about the big picture.

You're the one that seems incapable of thinking of the big picture. You support enacting blasphemy laws to limit free speech. I provided you with questions to show you the bigger picture yet you ignored most of them.

Do you even think the protest is caused by this isolated incident in Danmark? No it is not. It is the eruption of years of conflicts and hatred that's been going on from both side. You people just want to talk about BS freedom of speech. Number 1, freedom of speech doesn't protect those that will incite violent and disruptions. Just like US won't tolerate people making racial comments in major newpaper.

A major newspaper can print racial comments in the US if it wants to.

Yes, freedom of speech is limited, but it shouldn't be limited by blasphemy.

How about if you post any message with vowels, I'll go psycho and kill someone. Please note that you will incite violence or disruptions if you do. Do you think that you will follow the tripe that you post?

It's just dumb comments one after the other all saying how Islamic faith is violent and use this opportunity to support their view. All these biased views just gonna further divide the West and Muslim. Like I said, I am chinese and I can careless if the West and Muslim start killing each other. Just feel it's human tragedy for all that after all these years of technological advances, people would still rather talk about how right they are and how uncivilized the others are, instead of thinking about constructive solution to end the conflict.

I see only a few people make the whole Islamic faith is violent spiel.

 

[raildogg]

rchiu and others, the west will not try to get rid of the muslims. We are far too caring and we respect life.

If muslims start messing with your country, China, there will be a lot to pay. China will crush any muslim attempts at gaining power or influence from the outside. So applieing the word "nuke" with "muslim" to the west may not represent the whole truth. But replace the west with China and you've come that much closer to being accurate.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: raildogg
rchiu and others, the west will not try to get rid of the muslims. We are far too caring and we respect life.

If muslims start messing with your country, China, there will be a lot to pay. China will crush any muslim attempts at gaining power or influence from the outside. So applieing the word "nuke" with "muslim" to the west may not represent the whole truth. But replace the west with China and you've come that much closer to being accurate.

First I disagree with your perceptions. You seem to have things in an "Us Vs Them" mentality.

First of all, you are making the assumption that the "west" are not Muslims at all. You assume that the "West" is either not religious, or another religion; I'm not sure but my point if you are saying there is a specific divide between the "West" and "Islam". In that sense you are talking about the "West" as if it was its own religion, or "Islam" as a country of some sort.

Then you assume that China and Islam are again distinctly divided. While I agree that culturally there is a difference mailny because pig is a very favorite dish of the Chinese, as well as the existance of Chinese Ancestor Worship mixed among an amalgamation of folk religions, I don't see they as strictly two entities. In fact, "There are in China 48,104,241 Mohammedan followers and 42,371 mosques, largely in Sinkiang, Chinghai, Manchuria, Kansu, Yunnan, Shensi, Hopei, and Honan. "Ferm, Vergilius (ed.). An Encyclopedia of Religion; Westport, CT: Greenwood Press (1976), pg. 145. [1st pub. in 1945 by Philosophical Library. 1976 reprint is unrevised.]
.
Today they say its about 20-30 million. I'm personally not so sure either way. If the population would follow the overall Chinese population in terms of growth we look at 150 million or so Chinese Muslims, but that is way too much. The cultural revolution REALLLY took a huge beating on Chinese Muslims, but I'm not so sure to the degree that the population is about 50% smaller than it was over seventy years ago.
That and the Hui (racially Han, religiouly Muslim) were instrumental to China fighting for it on several occasions, hence why they one of the stars on the flag stands for them.

Either way the more you want to frame the issue as "US VS THEM", and use things like "ISLAM VS CHINA" "ISLAM VS WEST" "ISLAM VS AMERICA" "ISLAM VS MICHAEL JORDON" "ISLAM VS IOWA BEEF PACKERS" the more ridiculous your arguements get, and the more I think you want a confrontation to occur.

That and in the past and now China hasn't been too fond of religions. They have improved immensely since the ridiculousness of the cultural revolution, but not total freedom. Remember, once they found out Falun Gong could threaten them they banned it despite the fact that several government officials practiced it.

Btw Raildogg, what am I? Am I part of the "Muslim World" or "The West"? I want to see what yo uthink in your view

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

We could wipe Islam off the face of the map with the touch of a button should we so choose to.

I would love to see the west to even try that .

What do you think would happen

 

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: Frackal

Originally posted by: mOeeOm

We could wipe Islam off the face of the map with the touch of a button should we so choose to.

I would love to see the west to even try that .

What do you think would happen

I can't see into the future, we'll see when it happens.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: raildogg
rchiu and others, the west will not try to get rid of the muslims. We are far too caring and we respect life.

If muslims start messing with your country, China, there will be a lot to pay. China will crush any muslim attempts at gaining power or influence from the outside. So applieing the word "nuke" with "muslim" to the west may not represent the whole truth. But replace the west with China and you've come that much closer to being accurate.

First I disagree with your perceptions. You seem to have things in an "Us Vs Them" mentality.

First of all, you are making the assumption that the "west" are not Muslims at all. You assume that the "West" is either not religious, or another religion; I'm not sure but my point if you are saying there is a specific divide between the "West" and "Islam". In that sense you are talking about the "West" as if it was its own religion, or "Islam" as a country of some sort.

Then you assume that China and Islam are again distinctly divided. While I agree that culturally there is a difference mailny because pig is a very favorite dish of the Chinese, as well as the existance of Chinese Ancestor Worship mixed among an amalgamation of folk religions, I don't see they as strictly two entities. In fact, "There are in China 48,104,241 Mohammedan followers and 42,371 mosques, largely in Sinkiang, Chinghai, Manchuria, Kansu, Yunnan, Shensi, Hopei, and Honan. "Ferm, Vergilius (ed.). An Encyclopedia of Religion; Westport, CT: Greenwood Press (1976), pg. 145. [1st pub. in 1945 by Philosophical Library. 1976 reprint is unrevised.]
.
Today they say its about 20-30 million. I'm personally not so sure either way. If the population would follow the overall Chinese population in terms of growth we look at 150 million or so Chinese Muslims, but that is way too much. The cultural revolution REALLLY took a huge beating on Chinese Muslims, but I'm not so sure to the degree that the population is about 50% smaller than it was over seventy years ago.
That and the Hui (racially Han, religiouly Muslim) were instrumental to China fighting for it on several occasions, hence why they one of the stars on the flag stands for them.

Either way the more you want to frame the issue as "US VS THEM", and use things like "ISLAM VS CHINA" "ISLAM VS WEST" "ISLAM VS AMERICA" "ISLAM VS MICHAEL JORDON" "ISLAM VS IOWA BEEF PACKERS" the more ridiculous your arguements get, and the more I think you want a confrontation to occur.

That and in the past and now China hasn't been too fond of religions. They have improved immensely since the ridiculousness of the cultural revolution, but not total freedom. Remember, once they found out Falun Gong could threaten them they banned it despite the fact that several government officials practiced it.

Btw Raildogg, what am I? Am I part of the "Muslim World" or "The West"? I want to see what yo uthink in your view

You don't see a clash of cultures?

You have the thugs that are protesting hold signs that read "Europe will have its 9/11 soon" or "Behead anyone who slanders Islam". These people are declaring war on Europe as they reside in Europe. I was half serious about China. That was more directed at rchiu to see how his own country handles certain situations vs the west.

Have you missed the treatment of the Uighors (spelling error) in Western China? Apparently, any suspicious activity by muslims in that part is crushed by the government. They don't want radical Islam coming in from neighboring countries.

Sure, Islam vs Michael Jordan. Capitalize it all you want. I never put it that way. The clash of cultures is a reality. Don't you see a divide in the world? Don't you see a vast difference of opinion between fundamentalist muslims and non-muslims? Even on these forums, the differences are so vast it is hard to sometimes debate.

I don't know what you deeply believe in. You seem to indicate you are a liberal on many issues. Maybe you can explain your views a bit more. I'm not trying to be a smart@$$ here but I really don't know how to characterize you. Sorry.

Muslims can be part of the western world. There are muslims that seem to be accepting of western values.

It is not about being muslim or not. This is not about the west vs muslim or muslims being one way or another. There is a ideology in Islam that seems to be spreading. This ideology is very intolerant and extremely sensitive to criticism.

Any criticism of Islam is received as being an attack on Islam and therefore, the fundamentalists gather their hordes and issue death threats, etc.

 

[Rommels]

I see it...World War IV BABY!!

 

[OrByte]

wow how long have the same muslim apologists been arguing on this board today?

instead of arguing on a message board maybe you should go out and educate yourselves. For example, try learning the definition of "politcal satire"
The freedoms of speech that you consider BS is just one of the tools the civilized west uses for progress. Without such freedom(s) we would be eternally locked in supression, bound by ancient ideas of civility, technology, industrialization, medicine, philosophy, and yes even faith. Does any of this sound familiar to you apologists? Because many of the countries in the ME are in this exact type of supression.

These cartoons represent what is called a political satire, as you may or may not know, political satire is a form of communication used to raise awareness to ideas that may or maynot be popular, in the hopes of spurring intelligent discussion.

Obviously, the muslims that are all outraged over this poly satire are not intelligent enough to comprehend the message, which is that we as a world community must address the fanatical religious terrorists. There is nothing wrong with that given that your culture is stunted in so many ways relative to the west. But this is the fact of this situation, you cannot handle this truth.

there are two ways to go about resolving this issue. One is through DIALOGUE, the second is through BLOODSHED...which many in the muslim community seem perfectly willing to instigate bloodshed.

you apologists need to take the faith blinders off. No one cares that you are insulted, because the Danes were will within their rights to publish what they did. HOWEVER, It is perfectly fine for you to BE insulted, but where you go from here speaks volumes on just how civilized you and your culture really is.

what an absolutely pathetic showing you muslims (and apologists) have demonstrated to date. Disgraceful.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: OrByte

I wasn't talking to him about the cartoons or anything like that, I was discussing with him his view of "US VS THEM" mentality.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: OrByte

I wasn't talking to him about the cartoons or anything like that, I was discussing with him his view of "US VS THEM" mentality.

oh you can go ahead and say whatever, my post was just something I needed to get out

the whole debacle is simply alarming.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: OrByte

I wasn't talking to him about the cartoons or anything like that, I was discussing with him his view of "US VS THEM" mentality.

US VS THEM?

Who is us and who is them? Who will join our side and join their side? When did I say US VS THEM?

It is US VS THEM when we play cricket, golf, handball or any of these games. When we're talking about two different ideologies, it is not as simply to say that. The fundamentalist Islamic community seems to be odds with this whole freedom of expression or speech thing.

In a free society, you sometimes get offended. Your religion sometimes gets slandered. It has happened many times to Christianity. Christianity is bashed, made fun of and slandered on this forum night and day. I don't like it but I live with it. I expect that people will always make fun of religion.

But I and others don't call for violence or anything like that. The so-called fundamentalist muslims have really thin skin when it comes to any criticism of their religion.

Back to the US VS THEM battle.

There are many people who are on the fence, who are undecided and then there people who and are like a monkey sitting on a tree watching two tigers tear each other apart.

Kind of like how China sits in a tree and watches India and Pakistan tear each other apart. Anyway, the fundamentalist muslims and the radical leftists, who seemed to be in a love relationship before, have suddenly broken up. Even the moderates in the west seem to have broken off their love relationship with them. We don't have to mention the right wingers.

There are more than a billion muslims out there. If most of them were violent, then the world we know today wouldn't exist. I agree that the overwhelming majority contribute to society and wish to move mankind forward. That could of be said of most of the world. You have your bad and your good.

Whether it be the right wingers, or left wingers, people in the west believe in freedom of speech. They especially believe it when it has to do with something unpopular. Freedom of speech is not reserved for the majority or for popular beliefs, but for the opposite. This is all blah blah and I'm getting tired.

The point is that, unfortunately, the fundamentalist muslims and all stripes of Westerners have realized how different the other side really is. This cartoon debacle just shows it even further.

One side has to subdue the other side or one side has to back down for there not be a conflict.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: raildogg
You don't see a clash of cultures?

You have the thugs that are protesting hold signs that read "Europe will have its 9/11 soon" or "Behead anyone who slanders Islam". These people are declaring war on Europe as they reside in Europe. I was half serious about China. That was more directed at rchiu to see how his own country handles certain situations vs the west.

Have you missed the treatment of the Uighors (spelling error) in Western China? Apparently, any suspicious activity by muslims in that part is crushed by the government. They don't want radical Islam coming in from neighboring countries.

Sure, Islam vs Michael Jordan. Capitalize it all you want. I never put it that way. The clash of cultures is a reality. Don't you see a divide in the world? Don't you see a vast difference of opinion between fundamentalist muslims and non-muslims? Even on these forums, the differences are so vast it is hard to sometimes debate.

I don't know what you deeply believe in. You seem to indicate you are a liberal on many issues. Maybe you can explain your views a bit more. I'm not trying to be a smart@$$ here but I really don't know how to characterize you. Sorry.

Muslims can be part of the western world. There are muslims that seem to be accepting of western values.

It is not about being muslim or not. This is not about the west vs muslim or muslims being one way or another. There is a ideology in Islam that seems to be spreading. This ideology is very intolerant and extremely sensitive to criticism.

Any criticism of Islam is received as being an attack on Islam and therefore, the fundamentalists gather their hordes and issue death threats, etc.

I see what people WANT to call a "clash of cultures". If that was the case, I truly beleive that the world has been in a "clash" since day one.

I agree that these papers have the right to publish whatever they want, but I think there are things that are considered "bad taste". Rainsford made an excellent post on this. Just like how certain arab political cartoons characterize Jews as rats (Which Btw is totally wrong, that night I looked at the site I was very tired and didn't see the message in it. Others still I feel had a real poiltical point and were aimed at Isreal not Jews), I see the same type of bad taste occur here. I guess they have a right, but its one of those things better left not done.

As to what you bolded, what about Muslims? What about Muslims who are not "radical"? These "non radical" Muslims just try to live their daily lives.
Furthemore, these "fundamentalists" are protesting, the things we want them to do. The question is will they do more than talk? I wouldn't hesitate to say that 99% of them are all talk. Just like people who protest here spend probably less time taking futher action on their protests than they do in the john, I would wage the same for the "Muslim world" however that is going to be defined. What i would worry about is that 1% that actually DOES something. That is something that has to be thought about carefully. I would worry about that 1% also here in America, but the USA is on top of things so they don't have a reason to be violent because of that. That 1% generally doesn't have the type of political power to throw around, but can have $$ (Bin Laden). But to worry yourself about 10,000 people protesting in like 12 different locations when most have probably never left a fifty mile radius from their place of birth shouldnt' be too big of an issue.
I would say focus on athat 1% as terrorists, not "Islamic terrorists" because the more you emphasize the Islamic aspect of them, the more you use the terms "Islamists" "Islamofacists" the more you create a type of sympathy and connection with other Muslims to the "radicals". De-emphasize the religion and they lose a lot of their power base.

Muslims ARE part of the Western World. Most Muslims have no problem taking parts of the "Western Lifestyle" (while still modifying it to make it compatable with their lives. To find women in Iraq that doesn't wear the Hijab is not uncommon, but to find one dressed in a tub top and those 4 inch jeans is laughable).

I agree with most of that, and I think the best way to stop it from spreaidng is to stop the association of religion with them. Once we take away their perceived mandate, so will the masses.

Anyways thanks, you've given me a good idea to make a topic to discuss something. I generally don't make threads because my last five or so attempts have fizzled into absolutely nothing but I'll give it another chance

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: magomago
I see what people WANT to call a "clash of cultures". If that was the case, I truly beleive that the world has been in a "clash" since day one.

I agree that these papers have the right to publish whatever they want, but I think there are things that are considered "bad taste". Rainsford made an excellent post on this. Just like how certain arab political cartoons characterize Jews as rats (Which Btw is totally wrong, that night I looked at the site I was very tired and didn't see the message in it. Others still I feel had a real poiltical point and were aimed at Isreal not Jews), I see the same type of bad taste occur here. I guess they have a right, but its one of those things better left not done.

As to what you bolded, what about Muslims? What about Muslims who are not "radical"? These "non radical" Muslims just try to live their daily lives.
Furthemore, these "fundamentalists" are protesting, the things we want them to do. The question is will they do more than talk? I wouldn't hesitate to say that 99% of them are all talk. Just like people who protest here spend probably less time taking futher action on their protests than they do in the john, I would wage the same for the "Muslim world" however that is going to be defined. What i would worry about is that 1% that actually DOES something. That is something that has to be thought about carefully. I would worry about that 1% also here in America, but the USA is on top of things so they don't have a reason to be violent because of that. That 1% generally doesn't have the type of political power to throw around, but can have $$ (Bin Laden). But to worry yourself about 10,000 people protesting in like 12 different locations when most have probably never left a fifty mile radius from their place of birth shouldnt' be too big of an issue.
I would say focus on athat 1% as terrorists, not "Islamic terrorists" because the more you emphasize the Islamic aspect of them, the more you use the terms "Islamists" "Islamofacists" the more you create a type of sympathy and connection with other Muslims to the "radicals". De-emphasize the religion and they lose a lot of their power base.

Muslims ARE part of the Western World. Most Muslims have no problem taking parts of the "Western Lifestyle" (while still modifying it to make it compatable with their lives. To find women in Iraq that doesn't wear the Hijab is not uncommon, but to find one dressed in a tub top and those 4 inch jeans is laughable).

I agree with most of that, and I think the best way to stop it from spreaidng is to stop the association of religion with them. Once we take away their perceived mandate, so will the masses.

Anyways thanks, you've given me a good idea to make a topic to discuss something. I generally don't make threads because my last five or so attempts have fizzled into absolutely nothing but I'll give it another chance

I know this is bad taste. It is extremely in bad taste for the recent immigrants who just came to that particular country. It's unimaginebale to put yourself in their shoes. If your holiest figure is portrayed in this manner, I expect people to get angry. But turn that anger into a peaceful protest and one that does not defeat your message.

Yes, the people who talk and put up signs are just doing that. You have to dig a little deeper into who is putting these people in the streets, who is filling their hearts and minds with propaganda. It's too easy to say its the clerics. I believe this is more political than religious.

That 1% is scary. When they do something, it makes things a lot difficult for the other 99%. But I will say that it is time for the other 99% to stand up and strongly denounce any type of terrorism. Enough is enough.

What word would you use to describe them? Political terrorists? Ideologues? Misled rogues? Osama's Henchmen?

Ok, but how do you identify the enemy? How do you identify the 1%? If not their religion, then what?

I know you didn't like it when I used the word "Arabists", so that wouldn't work.

 

[Lanyap]

Originally posted by: Rommels
I see it...World War IV BABY!!

World War III? Middle East vs West. Over a cartoon?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: OrByte
wow how long have the same muslim apologists been arguing on this board today?

instead of arguing on a message board maybe you should go out and educate yourselves. For example, try learning the definition of "politcal satire"
The freedoms of speech that you consider BS is just one of the tools the civilized west uses for progress. Without such freedom(s) we would be eternally locked in supression, bound by ancient ideas of civility, technology, industrialization, medicine, philosophy, and yes even faith. Does any of this sound familiar to you apologists? Because many of the countries in the ME are in this exact type of supression.

These cartoons represent what is called a political satire, as you may or may not know, political satire is a form of communication used to raise awareness to ideas that may or maynot be popular, in the hopes of spurring intelligent discussion.

Obviously, the muslims that are all outraged over this poly satire are not intelligent enough to comprehend the message, which is that we as a world community must address the fanatical religious terrorists. There is nothing wrong with that given that your culture is stunted in so many ways relative to the west. But this is the fact of this situation, you cannot handle this truth.

there are two ways to go about resolving this issue. One is through DIALOGUE, the second is through BLOODSHED...which many in the muslim community seem perfectly willing to instigate bloodshed.

you apologists need to take the faith blinders off. No one cares that you are insulted, because the Danes were will within their rights to publish what they did. HOWEVER, It is perfectly fine for you to BE insulted, but where you go from here speaks volumes on just how civilized you and your culture really is.

what an absolutely pathetic showing you muslims (and apologists) have demonstrated to date. Disgraceful.

I doubt you saw it from way up on your high horse there, cowboy, but there was a subtle point in many of the "apologist" posts that you seem to have missed. I, and most of the other people you think of as apologists, weren't saying that the reactions of the fanatics was appropriate, we were saying that using those reactions as justification for wagging your finger at the entire Muslim community is a little strange.

That's it. It's not a complex idea. We try to do something about the fanatical Muslims while trying not to piss off the moderate Muslims by lumping them in with the Osama types. I think most of us realize this is a good idea, and yet every time some Muslims do something stupid and crazy (and this is truly one of those times, you can take your "freedom of speech" lecture and cram it up your ass, we're all up on that, thanks), people like you can't resist the whole "the muslim community is evil" rhetoric. Hell, your post makes an effort to differ between the fanatics and the normal Muslims, but you follow it by suggesting "their" culture is stunted compared to our own. Such an inability to see Islam as something other than a monolithic culture sure seems "stunted" to me.

Look, you're right that this kind of behavior is alarming. And it is certainly something I hope we can deal with in a reasonable manner. And the way to do that is NOT by declaring that our war is with the entire Muslim culture. I don't know about you, but telling people their culture isn't civilized because of the actions of a few doesn't seem like a great way to get them on your side. And believe me, if we really want to do something about the fanatical elements of Muslim culture, the moderate Muslims are exactly the people we need on our side.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: OrByte
wow how long have the same muslim apologists been arguing on this board today?

instead of arguing on a message board maybe you should go out and educate yourselves. For example, try learning the definition of "politcal satire"
The freedoms of speech that you consider BS is just one of the tools the civilized west uses for progress. Without such freedom(s) we would be eternally locked in supression, bound by ancient ideas of civility, technology, industrialization, medicine, philosophy, and yes even faith. Does any of this sound familiar to you apologists? Because many of the countries in the ME are in this exact type of supression.

These cartoons represent what is called a political satire, as you may or may not know, political satire is a form of communication used to raise awareness to ideas that may or maynot be popular, in the hopes of spurring intelligent discussion.

Obviously, the muslims that are all outraged over this poly satire are not intelligent enough to comprehend the message, which is that we as a world community must address the fanatical religious terrorists. There is nothing wrong with that given that your culture is stunted in so many ways relative to the west. But this is the fact of this situation, you cannot handle this truth.

there are two ways to go about resolving this issue. One is through DIALOGUE, the second is through BLOODSHED...which many in the muslim community seem perfectly willing to instigate bloodshed.

you apologists need to take the faith blinders off. No one cares that you are insulted, because the Danes were will within their rights to publish what they did. HOWEVER, It is perfectly fine for you to BE insulted, but where you go from here speaks volumes on just how civilized you and your culture really is.

what an absolutely pathetic showing you muslims (and apologists) have demonstrated to date. Disgraceful.

I doubt you saw it from way up on your high horse there, cowboy, but there was a subtle point in many of the "apologist" posts that you seem to have missed. I, and most of the other people you think of as apologists, weren't saying that the reactions of the fanatics was appropriate, we were saying that using those reactions as justification for wagging your finger at the entire Muslim community is a little strange.

That's it. It's not a complex idea. We try to do something about the fanatical Muslims while trying not to piss off the moderate Muslims by lumping them in with the Osama types. I think most of us realize this is a good idea, and yet every time some Muslims do something stupid and crazy (and this is truly one of those times, you can take your "freedom of speech" lecture and cram it up your ass, we're all up on that, thanks), people like you can't resist the whole "the muslim community is evil" rhetoric. Hell, your post makes an effort to differ between the fanatics and the normal Muslims, but you follow it by suggesting "their" culture is stunted compared to our own. Such an inability to see Islam as something other than a monolithic culture sure seems "stunted" to me.

Look, you're right that this kind of behavior is alarming. And it is certainly something I hope we can deal with in a reasonable manner. And the way to do that is NOT by declaring that our war is with the entire Muslim culture. I don't know about you, but telling people their culture isn't civilized because of the actions of a few doesn't seem like a great way to get them on your side. And believe me, if we really want to do something about the fanatical elements of Muslim culture, the moderate Muslims are exactly the people we need on our side.

You are smart person and I haven't had one bad thing to say about your ideas on this issue and other issues on this board. And I agree with 100% of what you say.

with that said

Yes I am wagging my finger at those that blew this issue into some monstrosity of good vs evil, of US vs Them. If you aren't in that group then you shouldnt have a beef with my post. I am speaking directly to those that demand violence and bloodshed over this minor infraction, because they do not have the intellectual capacity to shrug off the "insult" and critically analyze the meaning behind the images in those cartoons. I am speaking directly to those that cannot put aside their fear/hatred to engage in learning, to try and work together to eliminate religous fanatics of all types. You could substitute jesus for mohammed, and people SHOULD be able to get the message that fanatics use religion to wage war, and that is everyone's problem. But instead you get these people (not all of them mind you that isn't what I am suggesting) that get all insulted and are stuck on insulted (almost like stuck on stupid, do you remember that?)

Do I think theirs is a culture that is stunted "in so many ways" you are damn right. But that is another thread. The point I am making is that I call it like I see it, and right now the outrage over this issue that is on display demonstrates that there are people within the muslim world that are incapable of holding a dialogue on this issue, they would rather see bloodshed. Those demonstrating in euro countries are incapable of overcoming their blind anger/hate and I truly think that if the tables were turned, you wouldnt see that type of outrage from a western european/american country. That is what is disgraceful, and when I say disgraceful I am speaking of a disgrace to everyone, especially those moderate, peaceful, thinking muslims.

Now I find it admirable that you want to work with the muslim moderates, I wouldn't have it any other way. But when you take the muslim community as a whole, you have to deal with the problem few too, and someone needs to take charge and tell these demonstrators that there is a better way. That is why I am wagging my finger. I am simply tired of walking on eggshells with this stuff.

I didn't say we should declare a war with the entire muslim culture. I am sorry if you got that impression. I am not one of the war mongers, I am one that is simply losing faith that those "moderate muslims" that we rely on constantly to bridge the gap between our cultures is losing ground. The gap is growing wider.

 

[Rommels]

Originally posted by: Lanyap

Originally posted by: Rommels
I see it...World War IV BABY!!

World War III? Middle East vs West. Over a cartoon?

World War III was the Cold War foo. From about 1947-1991.
A very long cold yet sometimes warm war between the freedom loving world and the commies.

A Cold War (war) just means there isn't direct military action.
A Hot War is actual warfare.
A Warm War is where the sides are talking and there is a chance of peace, but the opposing armies are still being mobilised waiting for the command to fight or stand down.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Why not, a "call" is their right to exercise their freedom of speech right?

A call to violence is not an expression of free speech...it is barbaric, irresponsible and utterly condemnable in any enlightened society.

and any violence resulted from the call isn't their responsibility, just like the violence reulted from the cartoon isn't Danish newspaper's repsonsibility.

Utter BS...Danish newspapers are not calling for the eradication of entire nations, simply providing political satire.

If you are a respected leader in a community, of any faith or culture, and then incite people to behave in a violent manner, you are thereby responsible for the actions of those whose behavior you encouraged.

Yeah, don't forget to wipe out New York, LA and other major cities where hundreds of thousand Muslim live.

My post was made to illustrate just how insane things would be if the West responded in a manner that was comperable to that of the Islamic fundamentalist world.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: raildogg
rchiu and others, the west will not try to get rid of the muslims. We are far too caring and we respect life.

If muslims start messing with your country, China, there will be a lot to pay. China will crush any muslim attempts at gaining power or influence from the outside. So applieing the word "nuke" with "muslim" to the west may not represent the whole truth. But replace the west with China and you've come that much closer to being accurate.

There is a reason that China is not at odds with the Muslim. They do not interfere with other nations politics, like the Westerner do, especially the US. Do you see China currently occupying a Muslim country? Do you see China supplying Israel with arms and money to fight Muslim?

Until China started to mess with Muslim nations and politics, I doubt China will replace the west in this conflicts anytime soon.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: raildogg
rchiu and others, the west will not try to get rid of the muslims. We are far too caring and we respect life.

If muslims start messing with your country, China, there will be a lot to pay. China will crush any muslim attempts at gaining power or influence from the outside. So applieing the word "nuke" with "muslim" to the west may not represent the whole truth. But replace the west with China and you've come that much closer to being accurate.

There is a reason that China is not at odds with the Muslim.

Yeah, we all know about the freedom of speech problem you have in China.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: raildogg
rchiu and others, the west will not try to get rid of the muslims. We are far too caring and we respect life.

If muslims start messing with your country, China, there will be a lot to pay. China will crush any muslim attempts at gaining power or influence from the outside. So applieing the word "nuke" with "muslim" to the west may not represent the whole truth. But replace the west with China and you've come that much closer to being accurate.

There is a reason that China is not at odds with the Muslim.

Yeah, we all know about the freedom of speech problem you have in China.

Heh, maybe that's a good thing if people are gonna start insulting other religion, race or anything and everying in major publication without regard of social order and respect for other human being.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: raildogg
rchiu and others, the west will not try to get rid of the muslims. We are far too caring and we respect life.

If muslims start messing with your country, China, there will be a lot to pay. China will crush any muslim attempts at gaining power or influence from the outside. So applieing the word "nuke" with "muslim" to the west may not represent the whole truth. But replace the west with China and you've come that much closer to being accurate.

There is a reason that China is not at odds with the Muslim. They do not interfere with other nations politics, like the Westerner do, especially the US. Do you see China currently occupying a Muslim country? Do you see China supplying Israel with arms and money to fight Muslim?

Until China started to mess with Muslim nations and politics, I doubt China will replace the west in this conflicts anytime soon.

China is occupying the land of the Uyghurs/East Turkestan. They are more than occupying a Muslim country, they completely took it over as if it was their own. China also funds many of the dictatorships in the Middle East and Africa (such as providing arms for the Sudanese to genocide undesirables). You have to be really naive if you think that they do not interfere, especially with other Asian countries. Wow... There's a reason why China is one of the most disliked Nations in Asia along with Japan.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: raildogg
rchiu and others, the west will not try to get rid of the muslims. We are far too caring and we respect life.

If muslims start messing with your country, China, there will be a lot to pay. China will crush any muslim attempts at gaining power or influence from the outside. So applieing the word "nuke" with "muslim" to the west may not represent the whole truth. But replace the west with China and you've come that much closer to being accurate.

There is a reason that China is not at odds with the Muslim.

Yeah, we all know about the freedom of speech problem you have in China.

Heh, maybe that's a good thing if people are gonna start insulting other religion, race or anything and everying in major publication without regard of social order and respect for other human being.

LOL, right. Maybe you should move to mainlnad China and see how long you last. With your mouth it probably wouldn't be long

 

[rahvin]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/04/syria.cartoon/index.html

They have just torched the danish and norwegian embasies in Syria and burned the sweedish and chilean embassies in the process.