More Thoughts On "The Religion of Peace"

[Infohawk]

Why haven't I heard more Christians come out and condemn this sort of practice?

We need to start taxing superstition.

 

[Budmantom]

Why haven't I heard more Christians come out and condemn this sort of practice?

We need to start taxing superstition.

I have a feeling you couldn't afford any kind of tax.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Complex and seemingly intractable in the short run situations do not lend themselves to sound bite solutions, but the following would help:
1. First, cease the unnecessary and counter-productive and crude demonization of ALL of Islam. It helps nothing, and it plays right into the hands of their xenophobic fundies who can then say, "See, the Crusaders HATE us, ALL of us and our sacred religion, ululululululululu!"

A very large segment of Islam wants to see the annilation of a nation. Portraying this hatred as just few xenophobic fundies is dishonest. A significant part of Islam has a deep-seated hatred for Israel and anyone who supports them.

2. Realize that there isn't a strict military solution! Why? Because there isn't! Kill the next 3# Al Quaeda, make more martyrs, up pops another. Face it, WE are the outsiders over there. Some tolerate us, others take our money and use it for their own ends, but almost no one there really likes us! And the longer we stay and the more unavoidable civilian casualites we create, the more lasting animosity we create.

I agree that we should withdraw from Afghanistan if that's what you're saying.

NOW, this is sticky because there IS a dedicated group who will NOT soon give up on attacking us. Sadly, when we had the WORLD'S good will after 9/11 and our counter-attack on the Taliban in Afghanistan, we could have used our considerable resources to crush them then and there, BUT . . .
GEORGE BUSH and the NEOCONS fucked that opportunity for us, by pulling prime resources AWAY from the hunt for Bin Laden right when we were close and committing them to our wildly successful establishment of a Shia-based, pro-Iranian gov't in Iraq that only cost us Billions and Billions, indeed TRILLIONS of dollars, thousand of American lives, and TENS of thousands of permanently maimed Americans.
It's a good thing we didn't need those TRILLIONS of dollars at home or to cut the deficit or anything, though!
So, yeah, the task is far tougher now. We can't just withdraw. BUT we do have to stop demonizing ALL muslims and their religion or we'll never get anywhere!

Nice Bush rant...and agree with you on most of your points...except I believe we should have never have gone to Afghanistan (or Iran for that matter) in the first place and we should get out of both as soon as possible. The longer Obama delays...the more blood gets on his hands...and the more the outrage of the 'but-Bush' rants ring hollow.

3. Middle East. Israel. So fucking difficult, the Bush administration, when they came in, decided this basic festering point for discord lacked an easy solution (it does) and since they then coudn't score domestic political points with it, they simply leave it alone and attempt nothing.
That was cynical cowardice and short-term political expediency on their part!
IF THERE WERE A CLEAR AND EASY PATH HERE FOR THE USA WE WOULD HAVE FOUND IT ALREADY.
But, we do need to strike some better balance between our principled (and costly) for the democratic State of Israel to exist AND the fact that that support indirectly enables the most fanatical of the expasionist, no-compromise settler groups to continue to build on all the Arab land they want in the midst of the Arabs and then count on the blunt might of the Israeli armed forces to bludgeon the Arabs when they respond.
No justice, no peace. The Arab fundy jihadist "Death to Israel" types will continue to find fertile ground amongst the Arab population as long this continues, AND, YES, unfortunately it WILL be a LONG time after this expansion stops until they lose the support they've gained.
Sad, but true.

Another Bush jab and this one is a lame one IMO...Obama is doing not one iota better and you fail to acknowledge this. Arab fundy jihadist "Death to Israel" types represent a very significant percentage of Muslims. Perhaps it is unfortunate that they ALL get painted with a broad brush at times...but this also happens to Christians everyday and you don't see the reaction to this rampant bigotry manifest itself in elevated levels of hatred and killing throughout the Christian world.

But one thing is beyond true. The cycle of violence begetting more violence continues, YES, at Israels own risk. It is simply not in their best long-term interests.

Does Israel have a choice here? From 'Day One' the surrounding Arab states sought to anniliate Israel...this deep-seated hatred for Israel continues over 60 years later throughout a significant portion of the Muslim world.

The solution, whatever it is, is NOT and cannot be solely a military one.
Remember, the British won just about EVERY battle in our Revolutionary WAR, and yet never blunted our desire to have our own free government on our own land.
Remember, the British held ALL the power cards in India and still lost to a skinny guy in a diaper.
Remember, we killed MILLIONS of Vietnamese and yet never broke their will.
Like the Americans, like the Indians, and like the Vietnamese, the Arabs, even so POORLY led as they are, aren't going anywhere else ever and even Israel won't KILL them all, so, there is NO military solution, only a political one, whatever that may be.

So...I've reread your post several times and the only 'solutions' I see you offering are (1) quit the demonization of ALL of Islam for the actions of the "xenophobic fundies" and (2) seek some nondescript political solution which has been attempted since Israel was formed without any success. It's quite apparent that as long as Israel continues to exist...they will always be at war. The fact of the matter is that most of their enemies don't want peaceful coexeistence and therein lies the rub. As long as this mentality predominates the surrounding Arab states and the Muslim world, there are no real political solutions.

I KNOW this is like pissing into the wind, pearls before swine, coals to Newcastle, and Sisyphus pushing his rock, but there y'all have it, my puny and no doubt flawed attempt at light amongst all this CRUDE, ahistorical, partisan fanboy heat. <shrug>

As you previously stated...the stakes are high here, very high. However, the rhetoric in your original post like "Wise up, smarten up, grow up" and "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" sounds all nice and good...but I don't see any meaniful substance in these words or any meaniful solutions offered in your response for that matter. I share your frustration with bigotry and the needless loss of life we've seen in our time. I share your frustration with being involved in two wars started by Bush and continued by Obama. I share your outrage at the senseless loss of life we've seen in Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, Palastine, etc. And I share your desire for solutions. But...at the end of the day...I don't see any real solutions...only empty rhetoric.

 

[flavio]

A very large segment of Islam wants to see the annilation of a nation. Portraying this hatred as just few xenophobic fundies is dishonest. A significant part of Islam has a deep-seated hatred for Israel and anyone who supports them.

What part? What percentage? Source please?

Arab fundy jihadist "Death to Israel" types represent a very significant percentage of Muslims.

Again, prove percentage?

The fact of the matter is that most of their enemies don't want peaceful coexeistence and therein lies the rub.

Other rub being Israel doesn't want peaceful coexistence.

 

[ericlp]

Religion and Peace? Man that's an oxymoron!

 

[bfdd]

What part? What percentage? Source please?



Again, prove percentage?



Other rub being Israel doesn't want peaceful coexistence.

There are literally tens of millions of Arab Muslims who want Israel destroyed. You're not going to find any hard numbers for it because I doubt that there's any polling companies that walk around Iran asking people if they want Israel wiped of the map or not. But hey Flavio it's cool bro, continue to be ignorant by choice. I bet you just love it when you get all angry when someone talks shit on the Arab Muslim world.

 

[woolfe9999]

That would be fine except the Arab world has been going backwards while the rest of the world for the most part has been moving forward. What was once the center for learning and cultural diversity is now a region lead by religious zealots full of hate that are against modernization of society.

I agree, but that is tangential to the point of whether the backwardness of that region is down to religion or culture. Western society, largely Christian, was backward and largely barbaric for at east 1400 years of its now 1500 year history. There is no reason to suppose that Islamic societies are not just a couple hundred years behind the west. In any event, the causes of it are complex and not solely due to religion. When western society was backward, Christianity seemed to be deeply implicated in this backwardness, yet now we are not backward but still Christian. The other variable is obviously cultural - in the west, when the culture moved, the religion moved along with it. Likewise, when the culture is backward, the religion is used to justify the backwardness, in either case. In the Islamic world, religion is used to passify the masses, to justify the wildly uneven distributon of wealth and power, to secure the position of the ruling classes, just as it was in medieval Europe.

- wolf

 

[flavio]

There are literally tens of millions of Arab Muslims who want Israel destroyed.

It's cool bro, just make up shit and don't back it up. We'll just take your word for it as if you know tens of millions of Arab Muslims. Be all idiotic like that, nobody will notice.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

What part? What percentage? Source please?

Again, prove percentage?

Other rub being Israel doesn't want peaceful coexistence.

There are approximately 73,777,000 Muslims in Iran and their President has openly called for the destruction of Israel for many years...what percentage of Iran's population would you say might share Ahmadinejad's extremist views? This is one country...imagine the percentage of those in Syria (20,196,000 Muslims), Lebabnon (2,504,000 Muslims), Turkey (73,619,000 Muslims), Palestinian territories (4,173,000 Muslims), Saudi Arabia (24,949,000 Muslims), Jordan (6,202,000 Muslims), Iraq (30,428,000 Muslims), Egypt (78,513,000 Muslims) who might also share this 'extreme' perspective. I don't think a reasonable person would say that 'tens of millions' is out of line here....the key word being "reasonable". Unfortunately, hard data on this subject is very difficult to come by...but perhaps you have information that supports something else that you believe to be true.

I personally believe that Israel has bargained in good faith on land they won in 1967 as a result of war they didn't start. They've offered to give almost everything they won back to the aggressors for peace...yet that isn't enough...and there is little doubt that nothing short of giving their entire nation away will satisfy the muslim dominated Middle-East.

 

[Mani]

A quality post on P&N? Impossible. Good stuff Perknose.

 

[CKent]

Disgusting, like all religion.

The reason islam is far worse is the average level of religiosity, the number of extremists and the extent to which they're extreme.

As awful as reading that is, christianity is not, in any statistically significant demographic among its followers, responsible for daily suicide bombings, honor killings, jailtime for kissing in public, amputation of theives' limbs, execution of victimless drug criminals, execution of rape victims for the "crime" of being raped, complete lack of recognition of the concept of marital rape, etc.

How anyone can defend any religion is beyond me, but it takes a special kind of idiocy to embrace islam or sympathize with the animals who do.

 

[flavio]

There are approximately 73,777,000 Muslims in Iran and their President has openly called for the destruction of Israel for many years...what percentage of Iran's population would you say might share Ahmadinejad's extremist views? This is one country...imagine the percentage of those in Syria (20,196,000 Muslims), Lebabnon (2,504,000 Muslims), Turkey (73,619,000 Muslims), Palestinian territories (4,173,000 Muslims), Saudi Arabia (24,949,000 Muslims), Jordan (6,202,000 Muslims), Iraq (30,428,000 Muslims), Egypt (78,513,000 Muslims) who might also share this 'extreme' perspective. I don't think a reasonable person would say that 'tens of millions' is out of line here....the key word being "reasonable". Unfortunately, hard data on this subject is very difficult to come by...but perhaps you have information that supports something else that you believe to be true.

So what you're saying is that you can't support your claim. We'll just "imagine" you are able to support it.

I personally believe that Israel has bargained in good faith on land they won in 1967 as a result of war they didn't start. They've offered to give almost everything they won back to the aggressors for peace...yet that isn't enough...and there is little doubt that nothing short of giving their entire nation away will satisfy the muslim dominated Middle-East.

Actually Israel has sabotaged the peace process as much as the other side....and they continue to build illegal settlements.

 

[flavio]

How anyone can defend any religion is beyond me, but it takes a special kind of idiocy to embrace islam or sympathize with the animals who do.

Since I actually know a fair number of Muslims, Jews, and Christians that are perfectly nice people I don't subscribe to your bigotry and mass generalization of millions or billions of people based on the actions of a few.

 

[Infohawk]

I have a feeling you couldn't afford any kind of tax.

Wow, a baseless "you're poor" personal attack? Pretty weak sauce.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

So what you're saying is that you can't support your claim. We'll just "imagine" you are able to support it.

Actually Israel has sabotaged the peace process as much as the other side....and they continue to build illegal settlements.

I asked you to be reasonable and use your brain, and also gave you an opportunity to provide contrary data...both of which you failed to do.

There's a lot of Jew haters out there and Muslim nations dominate the list. Although there's no hard data to determine approximately what percentage want to see Israel destroyed...a reasonable person would conclude that 'tens of millions' is not an unreasonable number by any stretch of any rational imagination.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=168176

"The Pew Research Center&#8217;s Global Attitudes survey conducted last year paints a worrying picture of attitudes towards Jews in the Middle East.

In the predominantly Muslim nations surveyed, views of Jews were overwhelmingly unfavorable. Nearly all in Jordan (97 percent), the Palestinian territories (97&#37 and Egypt (95%) held an unfavorable view. Similarly, 98% of Lebanese expressed an unfavorable opinion of Jews, including 98% among both Sunni and Shi&#8217;ite Muslims, as well as 97% of Lebanese Christians.

By contrast, only 35% of Israeli Arabs expressed a negative opinion of Jews, while 56% voiced a favorable opinion.

The survey was conducted between May 18 to June 16, 2009.

The sample size of each of the countries surveyed was over 1,000 people and the margin of error was 3%. Results for the surveys in these nations are based on face-to-face interviews conducted under the direction of Princeton Survey Research Associates International. All surveys are based on national samples, except in Pakistan where the sample was disproportionately urban.

In Turkey, which has seen tense relations with Israel since Operation Cast Lead last January, the number of people who said they had a &#8220;very unfavorable&#8221; attitude towards Jews jumped from 32% in 2004 to 73% in the spring of 2009.

Negative views of Jews were also widespread in the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed in Asia: More than seven-in-ten in Pakistan (78%) and Indonesia (74%) expressed unfavorable opinions.

Among Nigerians, overall views were split (44% favorable, 44% unfavorable), but opinions divided sharply along religious lines. Fully 60% of Nigerian Muslims had an unfavorable view of Jews, compared with only 28% of Christians.

In general, Christians received more positive ratings than Jews, although sizable numbers in predominantly Muslim nations nonetheless expressed negative attitudes toward Christians. Unfavorable ratings of Christians were particularly widespread in Turkey, where over two-thirds (68%) expressed a negative view.

Among the Middle Eastern nations surveyed, negativity toward Christians was especially common in Egypt, where opinions were divided: 49% held an unfavorable opinion and 51% expressed a favorable view.

Just over four-in-10 in Jordan (44%), Israel (44%) and the Palestinian territories (43%) expressed critical views of Christians.

However, views differ among groups within Israel and the Palestinian territories. Israeli Jews were more than twice as likely as Israeli Arabs to give Christians an unfavorable rating (49% vs. 20%). Likewise, negativity was more widespread among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip (52%) than in the West Bank (40%)."

 

[Daedalus685]

Disgusting, like all religion.

The reason islam is far worse is the average level of religiosity, the number of extremists and the extent to which they're extreme.

As awful as reading that is, christianity is not, in any statistically significant demographic among its followers, responsible for daily suicide bombings, honor killings, jailtime for kissing in public, amputation of theives' limbs, execution of victimless drug criminals, execution of rape victims for the "crime" of being raped, complete lack of recognition of the concept of marital rape, etc.

How anyone can defend any religion is beyond me, but it takes a special kind of idiocy to embrace islam or sympathize with the animals who do.

How any of the most extreme religious people act today is not that far removed from how they acted during the crusades and dark ages (or pick your favourite example of crazy from a long list of history across the world) beyond the ready availability of some larger weapons.

Religion (read any form of 'faith' without evidence.. be if national pride, religion, etc.) is problem because it promotes a lack of thought in the populations that use and abuse it. If you fundamentally believe you are right and others are not and thus deserve to die about ANYTHING problems arise. Eventually society smartens up and the roll of religion will drift away and secular thought can start to flourish... Until such time those who dissent are silenced en mass until they become such a majority as to effect a change.

The problem is whether this can happen before our level of technology allows those trying to cling to the old ways to destroy us utterly, which I think does give special consideration to what is happening today compared to the colourful post. Even in our society the extremists still exist, albeit they might be a touch less extreme than in purely non secular civilizations.

The farthest I'd go would be to state that some cultures might not be as far along in their development as others (for many reasons... note that this does not mean that any one aspect of them is flawed or that our societies way of doing things has some divine correctness about it). I would never state that things would be wholly different though were the religions reversed in social position. I'm rather certain that were you to replace the belief in Islam with any other religious doctrine yet leave the leader sponsored aspects of it, the economic and social states of the people, and the education levels alone you would not be able to tell the difference.

 

[Throckmorton]

I asked you to be reasonable and use your brain, and also gave you an opportunity to provide contrary data...both of which you failed to do.

There's a lot of Jew haters out there and Muslim nations dominate the list. Although there's no hard data to determine approximately what percentage want to see Israel destroyed...a reasonable person would conclude that 'tens of millions' is not an unreasonable number by any stretch of any rational imagination.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=168176

"The Pew Research Center’s Global Attitudes survey conducted last year paints a worrying picture of attitudes towards Jews in the Middle East.

In the predominantly Muslim nations surveyed, views of Jews were overwhelmingly unfavorable. Nearly all in Jordan (97 percent), the Palestinian territories (97%) and Egypt (95%) held an unfavorable view. Similarly, 98% of Lebanese expressed an unfavorable opinion of Jews, including 98% among both Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims, as well as 97% of Lebanese Christians.

By contrast, only 35% of Israeli Arabs expressed a negative opinion of Jews, while 56% voiced a favorable opinion.

The survey was conducted between May 18 to June 16, 2009.

The sample size of each of the countries surveyed was over 1,000 people and the margin of error was 3%. Results for the surveys in these nations are based on face-to-face interviews conducted under the direction of Princeton Survey Research Associates International. All surveys are based on national samples, except in Pakistan where the sample was disproportionately urban.

In Turkey, which has seen tense relations with Israel since Operation Cast Lead last January, the number of people who said they had a “very unfavorable” attitude towards Jews jumped from 32% in 2004 to 73% in the spring of 2009.

Negative views of Jews were also widespread in the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed in Asia: More than seven-in-ten in Pakistan (78%) and Indonesia (74%) expressed unfavorable opinions.

Among Nigerians, overall views were split (44% favorable, 44% unfavorable), but opinions divided sharply along religious lines. Fully 60% of Nigerian Muslims had an unfavorable view of Jews, compared with only 28% of Christians.

In general, Christians received more positive ratings than Jews, although sizable numbers in predominantly Muslim nations nonetheless expressed negative attitudes toward Christians. Unfavorable ratings of Christians were particularly widespread in Turkey, where over two-thirds (68%) expressed a negative view.

Among the Middle Eastern nations surveyed, negativity toward Christians was especially common in Egypt, where opinions were divided: 49% held an unfavorable opinion and 51% expressed a favorable view.

Just over four-in-10 in Jordan (44%), Israel (44%) and the Palestinian territories (43%) expressed critical views of Christians.

However, views differ among groups within Israel and the Palestinian territories. Israeli Jews were more than twice as likely as Israeli Arabs to give Christians an unfavorable rating (49% vs. 20%). Likewise, negativity was more widespread among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip (52%) than in the West Bank (40%)."

Have you considered what those numbers would be if Palestinians were predominantly Christian instead of Muslim?

 

[flavio]

I asked you to be reasonable and use your brain, and also gave you an opportunity to provide contrary data...both of which you failed to do.

There's a lot of Jew haters out there and Muslim nations dominate the list. Although there's no hard data to determine approximately what percentage want to see Israel destroyed...a reasonable person would conclude that 'tens of millions' is not an unreasonable number by any stretch of any rational imagination.

No a reasonable person would use their brain and not make up shit they can't support. I'll just "imagine" you using your brain.

"The Pew Research Center’s Global Attitudes survey conducted last year paints a worrying picture of attitudes towards Jews in the Middle East.

In the predominantly Muslim nations surveyed, views of Jews were overwhelmingly unfavorable. Nearly all in Jordan (97 percent), the Palestinian territories (97%) and Egypt (95%) held an unfavorable view. Similarly, 98% of Lebanese expressed an unfavorable opinion of Jews, including 98% among both Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims, as well as 97% of Lebanese Christians.

OMG! "unfavorable opinion"!

Let's contrast that with Israeli racism....

"New report indicates 26% rise in anti-Arab racist incidents; 74% of Jewish youths call Arabs 'unclean.'"

http://www.haaretz.com/news/civil-rights-group-israel-has-reached-new-heights-of-racism-1.234831

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

No a reasonable person would use their brain and not make up shit they can't support. I'll just "imagine" you using your brain.

You're saying that my reasoning is wrong and that the number of those advocating the destruction of Israel is exaggerated...please support your position.

OMG! "unfavorable opinion"!

Let's contrast that with Israeli racism....

"New report indicates 26&#37; rise in anti-Arab racist incidents; 74% of Jewish youths call Arabs 'unclean.'"

http://www.haaretz.com/news/civil-rights-group-israel-has-reached-new-heights-of-racism-1.234831

Did I ever say that anti-Arab racism doesn't exist? WTF is your point? I was attempting to show you that 'tens of millions' is not an unreasonable number...nevermind...I don't have time for your inane crap.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Have you considered what those numbers would be if Palestinians were predominantly Christian instead of Muslim?

No.

 

[Moonbeam]

And what exactly is the solution?

Why do you ask this question? Do you feel hopeless or angry that somebody has passion for an issue that is never solved? Have you considered that you might have to empty yourself of precious illusions to see the way? Have you considered the weight you would carry if you knew the answer and could tell nobody? What if, to know the answer you would have to die on the cross? In case the thought appeals to you, I will tell you the answer and see what you can carry away.

The article says this among other things:

"When communities come under pressure, they look for scapegoats..."

Do you see that that statement is the end of it all, that from that point nobody ever goes anywhere? When communities come under pressure, they look for scapegoats. There it is? There is no hope, no answer, no way out, because nobody ever asks a simple question. Why is it that when communities come under pressure, they look for scapegoats? And why does that question never get asked? Isn't it because nobody knows the answer because nobody wants to know? If you can't answer that question you can't do a thing.

Humanity is dying because it would rather die than know and the answer is profoundly simple. People scapegoat others because they hate themselves. The hate they unconsciously feel for themselves they project on others. Nobody has the courage to see that all the violence and hate in the world is directed at oneself. You feel like you are the worst in the world. You do not know you do and you do not want to know you do. It is our denial of this truth that is killing the world.

And the truth is that the world will die even though, in fact, there is nothing wrong with anybody. So now you have your answer. Good luck saving the world. You will have to die to the feeling you are the worst person in the world and you don't even know you feel it.

 

[flavio]

You're saying that my reasoning is wrong and that the number of those advocating the destruction of Israel is exaggerated...please support your position.

I'm saying you made up shit. Which you did. Please post anything that would show that you didn't.

Did I ever say that anti-Arab racism doesn't exist? WTF is your point? I was attempting to show you that 'tens of millions' is not an unreasonable number...nevermind...I don't have time for your inane crap.

You failed to prove anything substantiating your "tens of millions" claim. You did find a poll showing "unfavorable opinion" so I posted something about Israeli racism that was similar.

 

[PJABBER]

I will take Moonbeam's position in the seemingly unending conflict in the Middle East.

The Israelis in forming the State of Israel did so in a generally barren land that was of no real value at the time of settlement. They bought and paid at a premium for then worthless land from anyone that wanted to sell it. (Do the descendants of the Indians that sold Manhattan for some shells also have a valid and lingering claim to the Big Apple? American Indian Jihad anyone?)

When the Arab states all decided to attack the new State with all of their might, some hapless Palestinians (actually Trans-Jordanians, etc. as there never was, nor was there even any intent to have a separate Palestinian state) decided that the grass was greener elsewhere and left voluntarily. Remember, the Arab states expelled their Jewish citizens and other non-Muslim populations under penalty of death, while Israel never forced any local resident to leave.

Over 60 years the Israelis have defended this sliver of land and through hard work and communal socialism prospered way beyond the surrounding states.

This has caused great feelings of jealousy, inadequacy and self-hate in the surrounding Arab and non-Arab Muslim governments and populations. These populations are insanely jealous, so jealous that they will destroy the object of their jealousy. They cannot overcome the feelings of inadequacy until the people that they could not conquer or stop from great achievements are destroyed.

Self-hate, insane jealousy and an inability to accept liberal and empowering self-reform is the cause of the problems in the Mid-East. It is the singular region that demonstrates Moonbeam's hypothesis over and over again.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

M: Why do you ask this question?
DSF: Because I want to understand what Perknose is really saying.

M: Do you feel hopeless or angry that somebody has passion for an issue that is never solved?
DSF: Nope...exactly the opposite. I've never been a big fan of Perknose's perspective but I do find this particular post interesting and one of his better ones.

M: Have you considered that you might have to empty yourself of precious illusions to see the way?
DSF: Yes.

M: Have you considered the weight you would carry if you knew the answer and could tell nobody?
DSF: I carry a weight...know next to nothing...and can't tell anybody anything they don't want to know...including myself.

M: What if, to know the answer you would have to die on the cross? In case the thought appeals to you, I will tell you the answer and see what you can carry away.
The article says this among other things:
"When communities come under pressure, they look for scapegoats..."
Do you see that that statement is the end of it all, that from that point nobody ever goes anywhere? When communities come under pressure, they look for scapegoats. There it is? There is no hope, no answer, no way out, because nobody ever asks a simple question. Why is it that when communities come under pressure, they look for scapegoats? And why does that question never get asked? Isn't it because nobody knows the answer because nobody wants to know? If you can't answer that question you can't do a thing.
Humanity is dying because it would rather die than know and the answer is profoundly simple. People scapegoat others because they hate themselves. The hate they unconsciously feel for themselves they project on others. Nobody has the courage to see that all the violence and hate in the world is directed at oneself. You feel like you are the worst in the world. You do not know you do and you do not want to know you do. It is our denial of this truth that is killing the world.
And the truth is that the world will die even though, in fact, there is nothing wrong with anybody. So now you have your answer. Good luck saving the world. You will have to die to the feeling you are the worst person in the world and you don't even know you feel it.
DSF: I know our deception among us runs deep and the world (as we know it) will die. I'm fully aware of the feeling you speak of...but it will not die...I wish words would make it so...but they are empty.

 

[flavio]

I will take Moonbeam's position in the seemingly unending conflict in the Middle East.

The Israelis in forming the State of Israel did so in a generally barren land that was of no real value at the time of settlement. They bought and paid at a premium for then worthless land from anyone that wanted to sell it. (Do the descendants of the Indians that sold Manhattan for some shells also have a valid and lingering claim to the Big Apple? American Indian Jihad anyone?)

When the Arab states all decided to attack the new State with all of their might, some hapless Palestinians (actually Trans-Jordanians, etc. as there never was, nor was there even any intent to have a separate Palestinian state) decided that the grass was greener elsewhere and left voluntarily. Remember, the Arab states expelled their Jewish citizens and other non-Muslim populations under penalty of death, while Israel never forced any local resident to leave.

Over 60 years the Israelis have defended this sliver of land and through hard work and communal socialism prospered way beyond the surrounding states.

This has caused great feelings of jealousy, inadequacy and self-hate in the surrounding Arab and non-Arab Muslim governments and populations. These populations are insanely jealous, so jealous that they will destroy the object of their jealousy. They cannot overcome the feelings of inadequacy until the people that they could not conquer or stop from great achievements are destroyed.

Self-hate, insane jealousy and an inability to accept liberal and empowering self-reform is the cause of the problems in the Mid-East. It is the singular region that demonstrates Moonbeam's hypothesis over and over again.

Revisionist history from Israeli propaganda. Are you one of those hasbara/megaphone people?