More steps towards a Global Free Trade

[RichardE]

Ministers seek route to WTO trade deal

DAVOS: Trade powers began mapping out a route on Friday towards an elusive global free trade deal, with an end-April deadline looming and no sign of any narrowing of their differences.

Ministers from the United States, the European Union, Brazil, India, Australia and Japan met before a gathering of two dozen countries later on Friday and on Saturday morning.

Officials said the idea in Davos was not to argue over the details of a deal, which would cover farm and industrial goods, services and changes to the rules of world commerce, but instead to focus on how to handle the talks in the little time left.

"We have been reviewing the process going forward, the road map," India?s Commerce and Industry Minister Kamal Nath told reporters after initial talks in this Swiss mountain resort. US Trade Representative Rob Portman said the six trade powers planned to meet again in mid-March, although they could gather sooner to tackle aspects of the negotiations.

The World Trade Organisation?s (WTO) Doha round of trade negotiations, launched over four years ago to boost economic growth and ease poverty, has already missed several deadlines.

The latest was in Hong Kong in December when ministers failed to reach a draft accord including all the difficult political decisions, such as how far to slash rich nation farm subsidies and open up their agricultural markets.

They agreed a delay of four months, the first of which has now nearly passed with no apparent narrowing of the differences. Negotiators say the ultimate deadline is mid-2007 when US President George W Bush loses his power to sign trade deals without detail-by-detail approval by Congress. But to get the deal ready for that, it must be agreed this year.

Deeper work: EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson, under pressure from countries which strongly defend agriculture such as France, has said the United States and Brazil risk burying the round by insisting Europe must make a further farm offer.

He has also warned that if Brussels walked away from the talks, it would lose nothing because countries like Brazil were giving nothing in areas of interest to the EU, such as more market access in industrial goods and services.

"We need much deeper work on the numbers in all aspects of market access rather than headline offers," Mandelson told journalists, referring to the calls on the EU. US trade chief Portman insisted Europe must give more on agriculture to allow a global deal, but he said developing countries needed to make offers too.

"I would hope the European Union would not, based on the views of a minority of its member states, block the agreement by not being willing to move forward on agricultural market access in exchange for a serious proposal on manufactured product tariffs," Portman told Reuters Television. Mandelson says the bloc is united behind his position of no new agricultural move without more on the table for Europe.

Brazil, which is joint leader with India of the influential G20 developing country alliance, has not ruled out concessions on industrial tariffs, but it says that the EU must do more.

"We will be quite happy to match whatever offer the Europeans will do in terms of market access," Foreign Minister Celso Amorim said after Friday?s meeting. "So far what has been offered is not acceptable to Brazil and is unacceptable others."

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Alot of work to go still, but hopefully this will be worked through and we can go forward with a WFTA. I have a feeling this will take a very long time to establish, which is good, I would rather it take longer and have all the details maped out, rather than have it rushed through.

 

[EatSpam]

The one thing we can be sure of, this WFTA will only benefit the very wealthy and the big corporations.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: EatSpam
The one thing we can be sure of, this WFTA will only benefit the very wealthy and the big corporations.

Compared to the rest of the world...we are the wealthy

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: EatSpam
The one thing we can be sure of, this WFTA will only benefit the very wealthy and the big corporations.

Is that what you said about NAFTA too?

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: EatSpam
The one thing we can be sure of, this WFTA will only benefit the very wealthy and the big corporations.

Compared to the rest of the world...we are the wealthy

I meant people like the Bush's, the Cheney's, the Kerry's, the Gates, etc. Compared to them, all of us are dirt poor.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: EatSpam
The one thing we can be sure of, this WFTA will only benefit the very wealthy and the big corporations.

Is that what you said about NAFTA too?

I haven't seen any benefit from NAFTA, nor did the people who lost their manufacturing jobs here... but I'm sure all those American companies that own factories south of the border saw plenty of benefits on their balance sheet..

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: EatSpam
The one thing we can be sure of, this WFTA will only benefit the very wealthy and the big corporations.

Is that what you said about NAFTA too?

I haven't seen any benefit from NAFTA, nor did the people who lost their manufacturing jobs here... but I'm sure all those American companies that own factories south of the border saw plenty of benefits on their balance sheet..

GDP has doubled since we signed it, hows that for a benefit?

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: EatSpam
The one thing we can be sure of, this WFTA will only benefit the very wealthy and the big corporations.

Is that what you said about NAFTA too?

I haven't seen any benefit from NAFTA, nor did the people who lost their manufacturing jobs here... but I'm sure all those American companies that own factories south of the border saw plenty of benefits on their balance sheet..

GDP has doubled since we signed it, hows that for a benefit?

So? Does a doubled GDP get me a better job (or create more jobs that I can work towards) or put food on the table? Its just numbers on paper if the common person doesn't see a tangible benefit.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: EatSpam
The one thing we can be sure of, this WFTA will only benefit the very wealthy and the big corporations.

Is that what you said about NAFTA too?

I haven't seen any benefit from NAFTA, nor did the people who lost their manufacturing jobs here... but I'm sure all those American companies that own factories south of the border saw plenty of benefits on their balance sheet..

GDP has doubled since we signed it, hows that for a benefit?

Yep, and people are in a negative savings rate. Jobs that replaced outsourced jobs are 28% lower in average wages/benefits than the ones they replaced (Per CNN). GDP has doubled and the ultra wealthy, the main recipients of the so called free trade wealth, have nearly doubled theirs...but most on the other hand are left out to dry. Corporate profits through the roof but real wages for everyone except the top 10% down for the last two years. 3.5 million jobs lost to manufacturing...and don't give me the automation crap as I work in automation and see far more jobs sent to Mexico than outsourced from automation. Entire plants sent to Mexico != several operator jobs lost to automation.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: EatSpam
The one thing we can be sure of, this WFTA will only benefit the very wealthy and the big corporations.

Is that what you said about NAFTA too?

I haven't seen any benefit from NAFTA, nor did the people who lost their manufacturing jobs here... but I'm sure all those American companies that own factories south of the border saw plenty of benefits on their balance sheet..

GDP has doubled since we signed it, hows that for a benefit?

So? Does a doubled GDP get me a better job or put food on the table? Its just numbers on paper if the common person doesn't see a tangible benefit.

You still have a computer and are posting on it, and obviously people are eating well as obesity is going up still...

Other world markets are opneing up for R&D, It is easier for you to get a better job, just depends on your ambition.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: RichardE
Other world markets are opneing up for R&D, It is easier for you to get a better job, just depends on your ambition.

Per CNN, the average wage of the replacement job is $33,500 including benefits vs $44,000 for the outsourced job. Doesn't sound better to me.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: EatSpam
The one thing we can be sure of, this WFTA will only benefit the very wealthy and the big corporations.

Is that what you said about NAFTA too?

I haven't seen any benefit from NAFTA, nor did the people who lost their manufacturing jobs here... but I'm sure all those American companies that own factories south of the border saw plenty of benefits on their balance sheet..

GDP has doubled since we signed it, hows that for a benefit?

So? Does a doubled GDP get me a better job or put food on the table? Its just numbers on paper if the common person doesn't see a tangible benefit.

You still have a computer and are posting on it, and obviously people are eating well as obesity is going up still...

Other world markets are opneing up for R&D, It is easier for you to get a better job, just depends on your ambition.

While it is true that I am doing fine, not everyone is. I'm concerned about the future.

Other markets are opening up for R&D... true, but I, like most Americans, would be hardpressed to move to another country to find work. This is why I care about the job situation here.

 

[Meuge]

You should realize that the reason jobs are being outsourced is because these positions are no longer economically sustainable in the U.S. The only way to stop outsourcing is to institute a protectionist policy... which would cost us vastly more jobs and money.

I think the key is that more leverage has to be given to people whose jobs are outsourced. We have to live with certain trades becoming economically impossible in the U.S., and we have to invest into re-educating these people and developing industries that are not outsourceable (if that's a word).

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: RichardE
Other world markets are opneing up for R&D, It is easier for you to get a better job, just depends on your ambition.

Per CNN, the average wage of the replacement job is $33,500 including benefits vs $44,000 for the outsourced job. Doesn't sound better to me.

You are replacing low educated overpaid jobs to begin with. Would it not be more market correction?

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: RichardE
Other world markets are opneing up for R&D, It is easier for you to get a better job, just depends on your ambition.

Per CNN, the average wage of the replacement job is $33,500 including benefits vs $44,000 for the outsourced job. Doesn't sound better to me.

Not to mention that prices haven't gone down as the result of outsourcing... we still have inflation and a insane housing market, which makes those lower paid jobs worth even less.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: RichardE
Other world markets are opneing up for R&D, It is easier for you to get a better job, just depends on your ambition.

Per CNN, the average wage of the replacement job is $33,500 including benefits vs $44,000 for the outsourced job. Doesn't sound better to me.

You are replacing low educated overpaid jobs to begin with. Would it not be more market correction?

That's your opinion. I guess plant managers, engineers, quality people, etc. that are all let go from closing factories are low educated? Have any of you been to a real factory to see the training required of the modern day operator or are you spouting off talking points to make your point? I have and I can tell you that the modern day operator is in need of far more skills than the past, hence why our Mexican operations are having so much difficulty and quality issues (from experience).

And with increasing automation, the jobs of our plant operators are in need of more skill than ever. Sure, it's not computer engineer, but not everyone can be an engineer, lawyer, or doctor. I guess most of you probably prefer them to be McDonalds clerks though.

P.S. A correction would be if they were working in the same field/job type after being outsourced. Comparing different wages from different fields of work isn't a correction.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: RichardE
Other world markets are opneing up for R&D, It is easier for you to get a better job, just depends on your ambition.

Per CNN, the average wage of the replacement job is $33,500 including benefits vs $44,000 for the outsourced job. Doesn't sound better to me.

Not to mention that prices haven't gone down as the result of outsourcing... we still have inflation and a insane housing market, which makes those lower paid jobs worth even less.

Part of the problem with the insane housing market is that it is estimated to account for 50% of GDP growth (Per CNBC) of the last few years as consumers took more and more loans against equity in their home to buy that new PC, car, Chinese made junk, etc. Hence the negative savings rate...first time in 73 years in the US.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: RichardE
Other world markets are opneing up for R&D, It is easier for you to get a better job, just depends on your ambition.

Per CNN, the average wage of the replacement job is $33,500 including benefits vs $44,000 for the outsourced job. Doesn't sound better to me.

You are replacing low educated overpaid jobs to begin with. Would it not be more market correction?

That's your opinion. I guess plant managers, engineers, quality people, etc. that are all let go from closing factories are low educated? Have any of you been to a real factory to see the training required of the modern day operator or are you spouting off talking points to make your point? I have and I can tell you that the modern day operator is in need of far more skills than the past, hence why our Mexican operations are having so much difficulty and quality issues (from experience).

And with increasing automation, the jobs of our plant operators are in need of more skill than ever. Sure, it's not computer engineer, but not everyone can be an engineer, lawyer, or doctor. I guess most of you probably prefer them to be McDonalds clerks though.

P.S. A correction would be if they were working in the same field/job type after being outsourced. Comparing different wages from different fields of work isn't a correction.

I did factory work for 2 years at 4 different factories, yes, the people are intelligent, in one thing, one very narrowed thing. Training is intensive for operators yes, but it needs to be for them to be able to do there job properly. But, the majority of factory workers are not intelligent, nor do they have any other ambition in life save to get a paycheck. Most have lost there ability to work outside of the factory envrionment because they rely on our parents and grandparents day of "you work one place for life" So when that place closes, they have no other skills. The economies of the world are changing and they need to change with it.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: RichardE
Other world markets are opneing up for R&D, It is easier for you to get a better job, just depends on your ambition.

Per CNN, the average wage of the replacement job is $33,500 including benefits vs $44,000 for the outsourced job. Doesn't sound better to me.

You are replacing low educated overpaid jobs to begin with. Would it not be more market correction?

That's your opinion. I guess plant managers, engineers, quality people, etc. that are all let go from closing factories are low educated? Have any of you been to a real factory to see the training required of the modern day operator or are you spouting off talking points to make your point? I have and I can tell you that the modern day operator is in need of far more skills than the past, hence why our Mexican operations are having so much difficulty and quality issues (from experience).

And with increasing automation, the jobs of our plant operators are in need of more skill than ever. Sure, it's not computer engineer, but not everyone can be an engineer, lawyer, or doctor. I guess most of you probably prefer them to be McDonalds clerks though.

P.S. A correction would be if they were working in the same field/job type after being outsourced. Comparing different wages from different fields of work isn't a correction.

I did factory work for 2 years at 4 different factories, yes, the people are intelligent, in one thing, one very narrowed thing. Training is intensive for operators yes, but it needs to be for them to be able to do there job properly. But, the majority of factory workers are not intelligent, nor do they have any other ambition in life save to get a paycheck. Most have lost there ability to work outside of the factory envrionment because they rely on our parents and grandparents day of "you work one place for life" So when that place closes, they have no other skills. The economies of the world are changing and they need to change with it.

Might be easier to change before getting into the career, but once establshed with kids, a mortgage, car payment, etc., not so easy to change without losing something (if not all). Many take whatever job they can find just to try to make the payments with no time for additional education after they lose their job.

Today's factories are smarter and more challenging than ever. Also, a factory that has replaced part of it's staff by automation and is still in the US is just that....smarter than ever with usually, more engineers hired to take care of the automation (not to mention more skilled maintenance and even more technically skilled managers). A plant that ships it all to Mexico, China, India, etc. is lost....all skill flushed to something else.

 

[1EZduzit]

So explain to me why the Canadian Wheat Board can dump their product in the US market whenever they like, but Americans can't sell wheat in Canada. How does that fit into your "global free market"?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
So explain to me why the Canadian Wheat Board can dump their product in the US market whenever they like, but Americans can't sell wheat in Canada. How does that fit into your "global free market"?

The same way that China can sell their new cars into the US market with only a 2.5% tarriff but the US cars sold in China come with a 25% tarriff.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
So explain to me why the Canadian Wheat Board can dump their product in the US market whenever they like, but Americans can't sell wheat in Canada. How does that fit into your "global free market"?

The same way that the US can sell lumber to Canada, but Canada cannot sell softwood lumber to the states. (Which has resulted in the direct increase of lumber costs.)

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
So explain to me why the Canadian Wheat Board can dump their product in the US market whenever they like, but Americans can't sell wheat in Canada. How does that fit into your "global free market"?

The same way that the US can sell lumber to Canada, but Canada cannot sell softwood lumber to the states. (Which has resulted in the direct increase of lumber costs.)

Hardly the same thing. The Canadian Wheat Board is a goverment mandated monopoly. They dump their grain here all the time on our open market, but we can't sell wheat in Canada. You talk big, but protect your own.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
So explain to me why the Canadian Wheat Board can dump their product in the US market whenever they like, but Americans can't sell wheat in Canada. How does that fit into your "global free market"?

The same way that the US can sell lumber to Canada, but Canada cannot sell softwood lumber to the states. (Which has resulted in the direct increase of lumber costs.)

Hardly the same thing. The Canadian Wheat Board is a goverment mandated monopoly. They dump their grain here all the time on our open market, but we can't sell wheat in Canada. You talk big, but protect your own.

Where did I say protect my own?

Your grasping again. All countries have trade disputes, but overall it works fine.

As for US farming disbutes. Farm subsidies represent 22 percent of the value of US farm production (as of 03-06-02). Most modern day farming is subsidized. (180 Billion over 10 yearsd dollar farm subsidy bill sighned into act 2002).

So what is happening with the wheat disbute is a subsidized industry is trying to stop another subsidized industry from selling grain in the United States. As I said, trade disputes happen, but overall it works for the benfit of everyone.

As well, no where does it state that grain cannot be sold here, it states there will be no tarrifs on Canadian Wheat. A measure that was brought forward by US wheat producers, on the basis that Canadian wheat was subsidized. The reason it was thrown out, is because US farming is subsidized as well.

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: RichardE
Alot of work to go still, but hopefully this will be worked through and we can go forward with a WFTA. I have a feeling this will take a very long time to establish, which is good, I would rather it take longer and have all the details maped out, rather than have it rushed through.

I hope it goes well, but I'm not sure one can be fully optimistic.