More on the Koch brothers this election

[Craig234]

As a reminder, the Koch brothers own the second-largets privately owned company in the US, and have spent decades trying to use their wealth to spread a radical ideology going back to their father of extreme libertarian views that happen to benefit them financially on things like non-enforcement of pollution laws, by founding the Cato Institute, a libertarian propaganda organization, and other media.

The news for this thread is their unleashed contributions to our upcoming election.

This country might be 'one man, one vote' but money has way too large a role, and these two have a lot more than 'two votes.

The following e-mail from Alan Grayson mentions they plan to spend $45 million to try to buy elections around the country, while all other PACs combined are only $200 million.

This is how democracy is defeated. Money used to create propaganda and push it on the citizens to buy opinions and votes.

Oil billionaire David Koch is spending $250,000 on attack ads against me this week. But I'm not the only one. In fact, he is deploying his polluting billions toward this modest goal:

Choosing our next government.

In more than 50 Congressional races across the country, in the next two months, Koch will be spending $45 million. To give you an idea of how much money that is, the total amount of all PAC contributions to all candidates so far is roughly $200 million.

We have to fight back! Please help us fight back, with your contribution.

And much of the money that Koch is using in this attempted leveraged buyout of our Government comes from . . . you and me.

For many years, Koch had a contract to extract oil from federal and Indian lands. In return, Koch was supposed to pay a royalty. A jury found that Koch underpaid the Government by $210 million.

Media Matters says that Koch has received $100 million in government contracts in the last ten years alone.

And Koch has paid for his assault on progressive government during the past decade largely with tax-deductible, tax-free foundation money:

$120 million from the "David H. Koch Charitable Foundation,"
$48 million from the "Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation," and
$28 million from the "Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation," Charles Koch controls.

So there you have it. It's the taxpayers who have inadvertently underwritten the Koch assault on social services, a clean environment and good government.

Stop the Koch coup! Please help support our counterattack.

From time to time, we will keep you posted about the Koch scheme to dictate who wins and who loses elections in America. In the meantime, thank you for your support for clean government. And special thanks to the 1000+ supporters who answered the call, and made a contribution to help us fight back.

Truth,

Alan Grayson

This allows two people to target and often defeat people like Alan Grayson, independant from the corporate dominance.

Just as in California, polls strongly in favor of gay marriage were narrowly defeated after large money advertising against it, just as our Republican candidate for governor Meg Whitman has been spending 85 to 1 over her opponent Gerry Brown and buying a tie race for someone with no political experience.

Boycott Koch brothers products, and vote against their attempts to buy our elections if you oppose this excessive role of money in the political system.

And the situation is - give to the politicians or groups you support, because as long as money is allowed, the only real way to combat corruption is citizens donating.

Citizens 'shouldn't have to pay for good government' - but they do under these rules. The result if they don't are politicians who serve those who do pay for their elections.

You don't get much more corrupt than the 'vast right-wing conspiracy' that includes the Koch brothers.

'Politicians have to LOOK good to voters, and DO good for donors.'

 

[hal2kilo]

As a reminder, the Koch brothers own the second-largets privately owned company in the US, and have spent decades trying to use their wealth to spread a radical ideology going back to their father of extreme libertarian views that happen to benefit them financially on things like non-enforcement of pollution laws, by founding the Cato Institute, a libertarian propaganda organization, and other media.

The news for this thread is their unleashed contributions to our upcoming election.

This country might be 'one man, one vote' but money has way too large a role, and these two have a lot more than 'two votes.

The following e-mail from Alan Grayson mentions they plan to spend $45 million to try to buy elections around the country, while all other PACs combined are only $200 million.

This is how democracy is defeated. Money used to create propaganda and push it on the citizens to buy opinions and votes.



This allows two people to target and often defeat people like Alan Grayson, independant from the corporate dominance.

Just as in California, polls strongly in favor of gay marriage were narrowly defeated after large money advertising against it, just as our Republican candidate for governor Meg Whitman has been spending 85 to 1 over her opponent Gerry Brown and buying a tie race for someone with no political experience.

Boycott Koch brothers products, and vote against their attempts to buy our elections if you oppose this excessive role of money in the political system.

And the situation is - give to the politicians or groups you support, because as long as money is allowed, the only real way to combat corruption is citizens donating.

Citizens 'shouldn't have to pay for good government' - but they do under these rules. The result if they don't are politicians who serve those who do pay for their elections.

You don't get much more corrupt than the 'vast right-wing conspiracy' that includes the Koch brothers.

'Politicians have to LOOK good to voters, and DO good for donors.'

I'll save time. Right wing response...Yea, bu, bu, but Sorros.

As if there were any equivalency.

 

[charrison]

I'll same time. Right wing response...Yea, bu, bu, but Sorros.

As if there were any equivalency.

So how are they different?

 

[MikeMike]

every election is bought, who was the last president who didnt spend millions on his campaign?

money is like meth... you can never get enough.

 

[woolfe9999]

As a reminder, the Koch brothers own the second-largets privately owned company in the US, and have spent decades trying to use their wealth to spread a radical ideology going back to their father of extreme libertarian views that happen to benefit them financially on things like non-enforcement of pollution laws, by founding the Cato Institute, a libertarian propaganda organization, and other media.

The news for this thread is their unleashed contributions to our upcoming election.

This country might be 'one man, one vote' but money has way too large a role, and these two have a lot more than 'two votes.

The following e-mail from Alan Grayson mentions they plan to spend $45 million to try to buy elections around the country, while all other PACs combined are only $200 million.

This is how democracy is defeated. Money used to create propaganda and push it on the citizens to buy opinions and votes.



This allows two people to target and often defeat people like Alan Grayson, independant from the corporate dominance.

Just as in California, polls strongly in favor of gay marriage were narrowly defeated after large money advertising against it, just as our Republican candidate for governor Meg Whitman has been spending 85 to 1 over her opponent Gerry Brown and buying a tie race for someone with no political experience.

Boycott Koch brothers products, and vote against their attempts to buy our elections if you oppose this excessive role of money in the political system.

And the situation is - give to the politicians or groups you support, because as long as money is allowed, the only real way to combat corruption is citizens donating.

Citizens 'shouldn't have to pay for good government' - but they do under these rules. The result if they don't are politicians who serve those who do pay for their elections.

You don't get much more corrupt than the 'vast right-wing conspiracy' that includes the Koch brothers.

'Politicians have to LOOK good to voters, and DO good for donors.'

Tough to boycott Koch Industries. They are an energy conglomerate. What "products" of theirs would you not buy? Every time you go to the gas pump, or pay or your energy bill, you might be putting money in their pockets.

- wolf

 

[BoberFett]

It amuses me that people like Craig think libertarians love pollution.

At the crux of libertarianism is property rights. If you want to pollute your land, go right ahead. The second any of that pollution seeps into my land, or the air or water contained therein, you've affected my property and my rights.

But continue spewing your ignorant bullshit Craig, that is what you do best.

 

[woolfe9999]

It amuses me that people like Craig think libertarians love pollution.

At the crux of libertarianism is property rights. If you want to pollute your land, go right ahead. The second any of that pollution seeps into my land, or the air or water contained therein, you've affected my property and my rights.

But continue spewing your ignorant bullshit Craig, that is what you do best.

Our of curiosity, what is the libertarian remedy for the situation where someone pollutes the air or water beyond their property?

- wolf

 

[LegendKiller]

Our of curiosity, what is the libertarian remedy for the situation where someone pollutes the air or water beyond their property?

- wolf

Regulation? Lawsuits to impinge on their rights? Big government through laws and/or courts controlling property rights?

They'd let companies like Koch spew pollution everywhere, pollute rivers and land, and then only stop them after its done, through what mechanism? Who knows. The "free market" maybe!!

Libertopians let the "Free market" control everything. As if it would allow one iota of protection to everybody.


This is one place, among many, where the Libertopians are laughable.

 

[Craig234]

Tough to boycott Koch Industries. They are an energy conglomerate. What "products" of theirs would you not buy? Every time you go to the gas pump, or pay or your energy bill, you might be putting money in their pockets.

- wolf

Yes, but they have consumer products - like Dixie cups, Brawny paper towels - that can be boycotted, and we might get the chance to push politicians not to pick them.

 

[Craig234]

Regulation? Lawsuits to impinge on their rights? Big government through laws and/or courts controlling property rights?

They'd let companies like Koch spew pollution everywhere, pollute rivers and land, and then only stop them after its done, through what mechanism? Who knows. The "free market" maybe!!

Libertopians let the "Free market" control everything. As if it would allow one iota of protection to everybody.


This is one place, among many, where the Libertopians are laughable.

The catch-all mechanism I've seen Libertarians advocate is 'the courts'.

They have an utterly unworkable and naive view of how that works - when a big company did major pollution, the citizen who noticed could presumably sue them in court.

It's just nonsense, but it lets them ignore the effects of disabling the enforcement that works best - if not well enough.

 

[woolfe9999]

Yes, but they have consumer products - like Dixie cups, Brawny paper towels - that can be boycotted, and we might get the chance to push politicians not to pick them.

That's two. List any others you are aware of. I'll avoid purchasing them. If you want a boycott, you need to inform as to what is being boycotted. Since the Koch bros holdings run through numerous subsidiaries, it isn't necessarily obvious.

- wolf

 

[woolfe9999]

Regulation? Lawsuits to impinge on their rights? Big government through laws and/or courts controlling property rights?

They'd let companies like Koch spew pollution everywhere, pollute rivers and land, and then only stop them after its done, through what mechanism? Who knows. The "free market" maybe!!

Libertopians let the "Free market" control everything. As if it would allow one iota of protection to everybody.


This is one place, among many, where the Libertopians are laughable.

Yeah, my understanding is that libertarians think that big business will never do anything to harm the public interest because doing so is "bad for business." I was curious if Bober had anything more specific as a remedy assuming that they DO harm the public interest in spite of this. He suggested that there was a remedy. I just can't tell what it is.

- wolf

 

[cubby1223]

You don't get much more corrupt than the 'vast right-wing conspiracy' that includes the Koch brothers.

'Politicians have to LOOK good to voters, and DO good for donors.'

Ummm, welcome to the real world

What's the alternative? We believe and believe and believe and end up electing a Hugo Chavez type? I'd rather have our current government than a Chavez led government.

It's easy to say all we have to do is believe and all good things will happen. It's time you wake up and realize you have very little control over other people out in the real world. There is no such thing as a utopia. I know you strive to create a perfect world, but that goal is not realistic.

When you paint the picture that all conservatives, all Republicans are evil, corrupt, just pushing the "vast right-wing conspiracy" that is all about protecting the rich and oppressing the poor... you come across as a lunatic to a whole helluva lot of people.

 

[Craig234]

That's two. List any others you are aware of. I'll avoid purchasing them. If you want a boycott, you need to inform as to what is being boycotted. Since the Koch bros holdings run through numerous subsidiaries, it isn't necessarily obvious.

- wolf

Unfortunately, the list is short but every bit helps.

http://boycottkochbrothers.com/

Brawny paper towels
Angel Soft toilet paper
Mardi Gras napkins and towels
Dixie cups
Quilted Northern toilet paper
Stainmaster carpet

 

[Amused]

Good for them.

Funny how "liberals" are so scared of freedom.

Gotta love Craig's description of "libertarian" as "extreme ideology" given the fact that libertarianism (classic liberal) ideology is the very thing this country was founded on.

Craig, there are plenty of collectivist countries, why not go there?

 

[spidey07]

Wait, so Grayson wants to defeat the contributions of Koch brothers with...wait for it...more donations to him?

And Koch has paid for his assault on progressive government during the past decade largely with tax-deductible, tax-free foundation money:

Damn straight there needs to be an all out assault on any progressive government type thinking, this country doesn't want that crap. And thanks to the impressive Citizen United SC ruling in favor of free speech you're going to see more and more ads by lovers of freedom and liberty as we take back this country from ANY progressive thinkers. The People know that progressives need to be eliminated from any government position. Simply, they must be stopped and removed.

 

[LegendKiller]

Good for them.

Funny how "liberals" are so scared of freedom.

Gotta love Craig's description of "libertarian" as "extreme ideology" given the fact that libertarianism (classic liberal) ideology is the very thing this country was founded on.

Craig, there are plenty of collectivist countries, why not go there?

You have to love how practical those who are "afraid" of freedom are. Craig doesn't want to eliminate "freedom", merely curbing the worst abuses. This is a noble course. Anarchy is the ultimate "freedom" yet it isn't ideal, is it?

Libertarianism isn't what this country was founded on, at least not broadly speaking. It was founded on representation of people by the government. The founding fathers all knew that this self rule wasn't concrete and that it would, over time, change and morph with the population. This is why the framework and not the entire house was provided by the Constitution.

Even in its original form the Constitution was vastly flawed and was amended many times. However, its flaws are the prime example of what I am saying.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Not that I can vote in CA, but I can count on one finger the candidates I'd care to support nation wide, and he's not on the left coast.

A corporatist and a statist. What a choice.

 

[LegendKiller]

The catch-all mechanism I've seen Libertarians advocate is 'the courts'.

They have an utterly unworkable and naive view of how that works - when a big company did major pollution, the citizen who noticed could presumably sue them in court.

It's just nonsense, but it lets them ignore the effects of disabling the enforcement that works best - if not well enough.

If this is the "catch all" then why haven't they started suing Koch in the courts? Is there something in current law that prevents it?

 

[hal2kilo]

If this is the "catch all" then why haven't they started suing Koch in the courts? Is there something in current law that prevents it?

Well unlike corporations, individual people aren't a "class" and have no standing. The courts rule on a regular basis individuals aren't a "class".

 

[LegendKiller]

Well unlike corporations, individual people aren't a "class" and have no standing. The courts rule on a regular basis individuals aren't a "class".

Not all that hard to get a class going.

 

[BoberFett]

I can only chuckle at those of you who think regulation stops anybody from doing anything.

What is regulation, other than prescription for punishment after the fact? If a corporation would cause damages without "regulation" in place, they'll happily do exactly the same thing even with those "regulations" in place if the punishment for non-performance was less than the benefit of ignoring it. Hell, look at the "regulation" that resulted in a massive oil spill but a few scant months ago. That "regulation" even went so far as to limit the damages that could be assessed. Someday you silly little fans of big government are going to have come to the realization that big corporations love lots of regulation. The minimal inconveniences those regulation cause are dwarfed by the benefits they gain by having them in place.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Unfortunately, the list is short but every bit helps.

http://boycottkochbrothers.com/

As a P&G shareholder, I support your boycott of a competitor.

 

[LegendKiller]

I can only chuckle at those of you who think regulation stops anybody from doing anything.

What is regulation, other than prescription for punishment after the fact? If a corporation would cause damages without "regulation" in place, they'll happily do exactly the same thing even with those "regulations" in place if the punishment for non-performance was less than the benefit of ignoring it. Hell, look at the "regulation" that resulted in a massive oil spill but a few scant months ago. That "regulation" even went so far as to limit the damages that could be assessed. Someday you silly little fans of big government are going to have come to the realization that big corporations love lots of regulation. The minimal inconveniences those regulation cause are dwarfed by the benefits they gain by having them in place.

Even if I concede you are right (which I won't since you aren't) then what is your solution?

 

[BoberFett]

Even if I concede you are right (which I won't since you aren't) then what is your solution?

What exactly is wrong with tort law?