Morality without religion or god(s)

[Atreus21]

You are correct, morality is arbitrary. We are each responsible for our own moral judgements. There is no objective moral code, it's all on us to develop our own moral codes. It's a responsibility that, IMHO, we should take seriously.

First: :thumbsup:

But secondly, this is why I can't be an atheist. I can't accept that morality is truly without any objective basis. Apart from being a contradiction in terms, the implications are horrifying if this is true.

 

[Moonbeam]

I said in my response: We are precious because we say we are precious. There is no independent standard to support our claim; we simply make the claim and call it our standard because, well, we need a standard.

That sounds arbitrary to me.

There is a standard to support our claim, but not to others. The standard is being. Ego death and rebirth, a psychological transformation, brings knowledge via taste otherwise known as certainty.

 

[sandorski]

First: :thumbsup:

But secondly, this is why I can't be an atheist. I can't accept that morality is truly without any objective basis. Apart from being a contradiction in terms, the implications are horrifying if this is true.

If it's true, we have made it this far.

 

[Moonbeam]

First: :thumbsup:

But secondly, this is why I can't be an atheist. I can't accept that morality is truly without any objective basis. Apart from being a contradiction in terms, the implications are horrifying if this is true.

It was the undeniabliity of that truth that killed me. Hehehehehe. But like I said, when you lose everything you can lose, everything there is of value, you are left only with what can't be taken. Fortunately that was infinitely more than I thought I had. Had I but know I wouldn't have been so afraid.

 

[Atreus21]

If it's true, we have made it this far.

By (at least to atheists) pretending, yes. By pretending, for example, that Hitler was a horrible monster and making sure everyone knows it. But whereas in fact we can't condemn him. Everything he did was in the end in violation of the principle that you shall not kill innocents. And in the end, that principle has no solid foundation.

 

[sandorski]

By (at least to atheists) pretending, yes. By pretending, for example, that Hitler was a horrible monster and making sure everyone knows it. But whereas in fact we can't condemn him. Everything he did was in the end in violation of the principle that you shall not kill innocents. And in the end, that principle has no solid foundation.

Pretending? We most certainly can and have condemned him. "God" commanded Israel to do similar things as Hitler did, I have condemned "god" for that as well. Do you?

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

By (at least to atheists) pretending, yes. By pretending, for example, that Hitler was a horrible monster and making sure everyone knows it. But whereas in fact we can't condemn him. Everything he did was in the end in violation of the principle that you shall not kill innocents. And in the end, that principle has no solid foundation.

I suggest that all theists have the same problem. Their morality comes from God - but either God has a logical basis for his morality, in which case the Atheists have access to that same logical basis - or he does not, in which case morality is nothing more then a positive spin on simple obedience.

 

[Retro Rob]

Pretending? We most certainly can and have condemned him. "God" commanded Israel to do similar things as Hitler did, I have condemned "god" for that as well. Do you?

Since I've grow quite tired of this lame, false-equivalent argument, did you know that Rahab, a prostitute of Canaan, and her family were kept alive becasue they turned to God? How about dwellers in a Canaanite City (The Gibeonites) recognized Israel's God and didn't die at all?

Did you know the Canaanites were burning children alive and God probably felt justified in getting rid of them? Oh, they were warned too, some 400 years prior.

Who did Hitler "show mercy" to whomever was a Jew? Who did he give a chance to escape his wrath?

Do your research and chill with this ignorant nonsence.

 

[sandorski]

Since I've grow quite tired of this lame, false-equivalent argument, did you know that Rahab, a prostitute of Canaan, and her family were kept alive becasue they turned to God? How about dwellers in a Canaanite City (The Gibeonites) recognized Israel's God and didn't die at all?

Did you know the Canaanites were burning children alive and God probably felt justified in getting rid of them? Oh, they were warned too, some 400 years prior.

Who did Hitler "show mercy" to whomever was a Jew? Who did he give a chance to escape his wrath?

Do your research and chill with this ignorant nonsence.

...and this excuses it?

Give your head a shake. The only ignorant nonsense is what you just posted.

 

[Retro Rob]

...and this excuses it?

Give your head a shake. The only ignorant nonsense is what you just posted.

Warning people and stopping the burning of children, that's admirable.

 

[sandorski]

Warning people and stopping the burning of children, that's admirable.

You forgetting something?

 

[Retro Rob]

You forgetting something?

Yeah, and giving people a chance to survive. Thanks.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Well, given the rather curious definition of mercy here, I suspect Hitler would qualify as having done the equivalent under the Haavara Agreement.

 

[sandorski]

Yeah, and giving people a chance to survive. Thanks.

Recall how one city was promised mercy if they converted to Judaism then when all the men of the city were in agony from receiving their circumcisions they were summarily killed?

You have merely found an incidence of "mercy" and decided that "God" is better than Hitler. You seem able to ignore all the incidents where "God" is worse.

 

[Retro Rob]

Well, given the rather curious definition of mercy here, I suspect Hitler would qualify as having done the equivalent under the Haavara Agreement.

Keep reaching, you might touch the stars....

 

[Retro Rob]

Recall how one city was promised mercy if they converted to Judaism then when all the men of the city were in agony from receiving their circumcisions they were summarily killed?

You have merely found an incidence of "mercy" and decided that "God" is better than Hitler. You seem able to ignore all the incidents where "God" is worse.

No, I was only trying to point out the lengths that people like yourself go to in order to deliberately leave out background facts and details (those in which add much needed context to said account) to frame a dishonest arguement.

I hear many, many people run to the Canaanite account, only to leave out how muderous that nation was and how God spared a canaanite "group", a prostitute and her family, and issued prior warnings.

It's not like you didn't know this, but you have to justify your non-belief, even if you have to be dishonest.

 

[jackstar7]

Moloch commands you: Burn your children for me!

Yep... people sure do sumb shit based on their personal subscription to SkyMan.

And the hypotehsis is that people need religion for morality? Hilarious.

 

[sandorski]

No, I was only trying to point out the lengths that people like yourself go to in order to deliberately leave out background facts and details (those in which add much needed context to said account) to frame a dishonest arguement.

I hear many, many people run to the Canaanite account, only to leave out how muderous that nation was and how God spared a canaanite "group", a prostitute and her family, and issued prior warnings.

It's not like you didn't know this, but you have to justify your non-belief, even if you have to be dishonest.

Hey, remember the time "god" just said, "fuck it" and drowned everyone?

How about the time he told the Israelites to kill all the Men, the Boys, all Women who had known a man, but keep the virgin females for themselves. Remember that?

How about the time Satan was making fun of "God" and hurt "God's" ego so much that he made a bet with Satan that "God's" most devout follower had everything taken from him for the sake of "God" being able to say "PWNT" to Satan. Perfectly fine, nothing to see here, right?


I haven't gone to any lengths. If I am being dishonest, then so is the Bible.

 

[Retro Rob]

Hey, remember the time "god" just said, "fuck it" and drowned everyone?

How about the time he told the Israelites to kill all the Men, the Boys, all Women who had known a man, but keep the virgin females for themselves. Remember that?

How about the time Satan was making fun of "God" and hurt "God's" ego so much that he made a bet with Satan that "God's" most devout follower had everything taken from him for the sake of "God" being able to say "PWNT" to Satan. Perfectly fine, nothing to see here, right?

I don't wish to debate when God was/wasn't justified in doing something or not and I won't.

All I wanted to do was point out that listening to "non-believers" without looking it up yourself is foolhardy.

 

[sandorski]

I don't wish to debate when God was/wasn't justified in doing something or not and I won't.

All I wanted to do was point out that listening to "non-believers" without looking it up yourself is foolhardy.

I know you won't, it's too disturbing to do so.

You failed to really point out anything. Other than typical Theist attempts to square circles. Ironically, the truth is right in front of you, in the Bible. Theists are just blind to it.

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't wish to debate when God was/wasn't justified in doing something or not and I won't.

All I wanted to do was point out that listening to "non-believers" without looking it up yourself is foolhardy.

Alternately, it does no good to look something up if you aren't free of previous bias or haven't the expertise to understand what you see. The problem is that we do not examine the assumptions we make out of which we direct our belief. If there are no reliable atheist researchers there are no reliable believers either since each will see only what they already believe.

 

[Retro Rob]

I know you won't, it's too disturbing to do so.

You failed to really point out anything. Other than typical Theist attempts to square circles. Ironically, the truth is right in front of you, in the Bible. Theists are just blind to it.

I'd like to turn the tables on you just for an example.

How'd you like if someone just talked about the six people you killed last year, spread the story through the City/State/County you live in, causing everyone to think you were a muderous dog because you kept getting away with it.

Yet, they left out the FACT that those six people tried to kill you first, and you were just defending yourself, and the courts found you not guilty of a crime because of six clear cases of self-defense.

I wouldn't call myself your apologist for sharing that information that was left out.

 

[sandorski]

I'd like to turn the tables on you just for an example.

How'd you like if someone just talked about the six people you killed last year, spread the story through the City/State/County you live in, causing everyone to think you were a muderous dog because you kept getting away with it.

Yet, they left out the FACT that those six people tried to kill you first, and you were just defending yourself, and the courts found you not guilty of a crime because of six clear cases of self-defense.

I wouldn't call myself your apologist for sharing that information that was left out.

"God's" life was at risk?

 

[HumblePie]

First: :thumbsup:

But secondly, this is why I can't be an atheist. I can't accept that morality is truly without any objective basis. Apart from being a contradiction in terms, the implications are horrifying if this is true.

Say what? as I said before, all morality decisions come from some form of self preservation. It's the basis for every morality code in every population segment in history. How one group decides an action is moral/immoral/amoral is how they weigh various aspects of what they condone as good self preservation.

Morality has nothing to do with religion and never has. You just got groups of people that want to state their moral code based upon their religion is superior to anything else. Which is really dumb when you think about it logically.

 

[Murloc]

I can't accept that morality is truly without any objective basis.

Instinct of survival, spreading your genes, and conservation of the race as a whole (solidarity in gregarious animals).
Just think about this. Anything classic religions like the abrahamitic ones teach can be ascribed to stuff that prehistoric men did and other animals do. In some cases, if you don't agree with their teaching, they look wrong, but it's still obvious where those beliefs come from.
That's the objective basis of morality that can be found in any society, without any external contamination to explain the fact that it's the same everywhere.