Morality without religion or god(s)

[Atreus21]

I disagree totally. We value human life more, because it is Our life. We assign these Values, it is only Rational that we assign more value to that which we rely on.

And as I said earlier, that is an arbitrary standard. It's more valuable because we say it's more valuable. We can't prove it, but we just believe it.

Without some objective standard, you can say human lives are more valuable, and I can say a dog's is more valuable. And that is an unresolvable impasse.

 

[sandorski]

And as I said earlier, that is an arbitrary standard. It's more valuable because we say it's more valuable. We can't prove it, but we just believe it.

Without some objective standard, you can say human lives are more valuable, and I can say a dog's is more valuable. And that is an unresolvable impasse.

So?

 

[Atreus21]

So?

So a moral belief in the sanctity of human life is irrational. It can't be proven with reason and logic alone.

 

[Moonbeam]

And as I said earlier, that is an arbitrary standard. It's more valuable because we say it's more valuable. We can't prove it, but we just believe it.

Without some objective standard, you can say human lives are more valuable, and I can say a dog's is more valuable. And that is an unresolvable impasse.

There is no impasse because there is no such arbitrary standard. People sacrifice themselves for others all the time including sometimes to save their dogs. What he got right is that he may not be conscious of why. He just can't buy your explanation which he believes is misplaced, that no moral standard exists someplace in magic land. We are moral, I think, because it is the best way to feel. What we debate and reason about are the social conditions and rules that best allow that feeling to flower. Maybe we could call the moral imperative the 'will to be', the 'will' absolute, the 'to be' flexible and elastic and conditional.

 

[sandorski]

So a moral belief in the sanctity of human life is irrational. It can't be proven with reason and logic alone.

I disagree.

 

[Atreus21]

I disagree.

 

[Paul98]

You want material evidence for the immaterial? Science only measures the material, so that is a cop out more or less.

Existence of the material, which includes time, should be evidence enough.

What does saying god is immaterial mean? Do you think god exists and has an impact on the world around us?

 

[jackstar7]

So a moral belief in the sanctity of human life is irrational. It can't be proven with reason and logic alone.

Reason and logic are the impetus for the moral belief in the value of human life.

 

[Atreus21]

Reason and logic are the impetus for the moral belief in the value of human life.

How? How can it be reasonably or logically proven that human lives are more valuable than the lives of any other animal?

 

[jackstar7]

How? How can it be reasonably or logically proven that human lives are more valuable than the lives of any other animal?

By their possession of reason and logic. Those tools, along with creativity, create a superiority worthy of value.

And when we see behaviors that imply those features, we anthropomorphize the creatures displaying those behaviors and value them more highly.

 

[skyking]

By their possession of reason and logic. Those tools, along with creativity, create a superiority worthy of value.

And when we see behaviors that imply those features, we anthropomorphize the creatures displaying those behaviors and value them more highly.

Excellent point. Look at the changes in most of the world regarding whales and elephants for example.

 

[Moonbeam]

Excellent point. Look at the changes in most of the world regarding whales and elephants for example.

Imagine the anthropomorphizing you could do if you were the universe.

 

[shadow9d9]

I'm late to the party... what state do you live in OP?

 

[shadow9d9]

How? How can it be reasonably or logically proven that human lives are more valuable than the lives of any other animal?

This is actually a great question. We(me and maybe other humans) tend to value those that we love above others... this may include a family dog, cat, etc, as well as other humans. Not so much chickens... however, in other countries, their culture may not look at dogs the same way, so they will feel differently. This is logical to me.

 

[Moonbeam]

This is actually a great question. We(me and maybe other humans) tend to value those that we love above others... this may include a family dog, cat, etc, as well as other humans. Not so much chickens... however, in other countries, their culture may not look at dogs the same way, so they will feel differently. This is logical to me.

But just imagine if the line between what you love above others were to disappear.

 

[jackstar7]

But just imagine if the line between what you love above others were to disappear.

Then your love will be meaningless.

 

[lotus503]

How? How can it be reasonably or logically proven that human lives are more valuable than the lives of any other animal?

Human beings are a social species capable of understanding that the value of human life extends to themselves. So to human beings by majority, derive more value to human life than other animals because they are in fact human themselves and have hard wiring for survival and propagation of the species.

 

[Atreus21]

By their possession of reason and logic. Those tools, along with creativity, create a superiority worthy of value.

And when we see behaviors that imply those features, we anthropomorphize the creatures displaying those behaviors and value them more highly.

That is still arbitrary. We are precious because we say so, because humans are special. Dolphins might say they are precious by virtue of their superior swimming capabilities relative to man's, and swimming capability is as important to dolphins as logic and reason are to humans. Without an objective standard, we have essentially every animal with an equal claim to superiority: an arbitrary one made it its own self-interest.

 

[jackstar7]

That is still arbitrary. We are precious because we say so, because humans are special. Dolphins might say they are precious by virtue of their superior swimming capabilities relative to man's, and swimming capability is as important to dolphins as logic and reason are to humans. Without an objective standard, we have essentially every animal with an equal claim to superiority: an arbitrary one made it its own self-interest.

So you say it is arbitrary, but you do not explain how you arrive at that conclusion.

 

[lotus503]

That is still arbitrary. We are precious because we say so, because humans are special. Dolphins might say they are precious by virtue of their superior swimming capabilities relative to man's, and swimming capability is as important to dolphins as logic and reason are to humans. Without an objective standard, we have essentially every animal with an equal claim to superiority: an arbitrary one made it its own self-interest.

own self-interest is key and thats why Humans are more special to humans because its in their hard wired self interest to think that way.

 

[Moonbeam]

Then your love will be meaningless.

My dear Sir, if you knew anything at all about meaninglessness you would know what I mean. You labor under the delusion there is meaning. Everything that Atreus fears is real except the need to fear. You can't take away being because being is was and ever will be, now, the present.

 

[shadow9d9]

That is still arbitrary. We are precious because we say so, because humans are special. Dolphins might say they are precious by virtue of their superior swimming capabilities relative to man's, and swimming capability is as important to dolphins as logic and reason are to humans. Without an objective standard, we have essentially every animal with an equal claim to superiority: an arbitrary one made it its own self-interest.

We are precious ONLY because we say so... not "because humans are special."

 

[IronWing]

That is still arbitrary. We are precious because we say so, because humans are special. Dolphins might say they are precious by virtue of their superior swimming capabilities relative to man's, and swimming capability is as important to dolphins as logic and reason are to humans. Without an objective standard, we have essentially every animal with an equal claim to superiority: an arbitrary one made it its own self-interest.

You are correct, morality is arbitrary. We are each responsible for our own moral judgements. There is no objective moral code, it's all on us to develop our own moral codes. It's a responsibility that, IMHO, we should take seriously.

 

[Atreus21]

So you say it is arbitrary, but you do not explain how you arrive at that conclusion.

I said in my response: We are precious because we say we are precious. There is no independent standard to support our claim; we simply make the claim and call it our standard because, well, we need a standard.

That sounds arbitrary to me.

 

[Moonbeam]

own self-interest is key and thats why Humans are more special to humans because its in their hard wired self interest to think that way.

Special is only the quality of being (human) which is being via human consciousness. But because there can be no self separate and aware of self, the ego is a delusion. There is only awareness in which the self disappears which raises the question of what it is to be human. So we are back again to 'human awareness. But the self can't know what human awareness is without being aware and in awareness there are no questions, only the experience of being human, which is special indeed, or so I've heard.