Money isnt everything (education)

[WhipperSnapper]

It's BS because there has been plenty of hard nosed principles that have gone into black under-performing schools and turned them into scholars and doctors. Material is not hard motivation is and culture is.

Oh, I don't doubt that there are plenty of students with potential in those under-performing schools. It's a bell curve. Some people are just going to be to the right side of the bell curve. On the other hand, there are students who don't do well even in upper middle class schools.

My point is that our public schools aren't as bad as what people think and that when you compare American students against students in nations where the average IQ is higher and where they don't have large numbers of people with sub-90 IQs, the U.S. educational system just isn't going to look very good.

I favor something akin to the model that Legend Killer described (the German model?). Figure out which students have potential after, say, the first year of high school. Then slot them into different tracks. It'll probably be much better for the vast majority of people in this country if we do it that way.

 

[Zebo]

My point is even with sub 90 IQs you can get a successful education because material is not quantum physics, you just have to work harder, a lot harder. We don't work as hard and race, poverty, computers, etc is just a cop-out or used by sites like yours to feed racism. Either way it's quitting and can'ts - two words not in my vocabulary - and shouldn't be in the US's vocabulary.

BTW how much of that 90 IQ becomes 110 if you work your mind for 12-14 years from pre-k to 12?

 

[IGBT]

liberal social engineering sucks all the money away from education fundamentals. They don't teach. They proselytize based on a liberal regressive guilt/victim agenda. Most of the teachers are liberal flunkTards that never worked in a real job out side of a academic environment.

 

[rchiu]

I have to say the US education is one of the best in the world already in terms of resources. Sure not every school has all the resources available to them, but in most of the major cities, parents have all the info and the freedom to send their kids to schools to give them all the education they need to be successful - if the parents and the kids have the will.

If you look at the curriculum, most high schools offer collage level AP course. If you look at facilities, most schools have the sport facilities, swimming pools, high level competition in sports, math, science and many other fields. If you look at teachers and administrators, US teachers to student ratios is one of the least in the world, and most school have all kinds of counselor available for all kinds of problems. And yeah, that's why US education cost so much.

And if kids and parents have the will, they will have no problem to thrive in the US education system. My uncle and aunt are first generation immigrants and their son went to Harvard, and there are many examples like them.

The problem like many people already said, is with the US culture that look down at smart and hard working people. And the laziness, the entitlement mentality that comes with rich and developed society. And the politicization of the education systems, ideals and vision.

Unless you change most people's mentality, throwing money, copy other systems, isn't going to do anything.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

My point is that our public schools aren't as bad as what people think and that when you compare American students against students in nations where the average IQ is higher and where they don't have large numbers of people with sub-90 IQs, the U.S. educational system just isn't going to look very good.

I'd like to point something out. If you're right, then it means the US is inordinately stupid compared to the rest of the OECD. Which means that the righteous indignation of the 'typical' American when the rest of the world calls them stupid and uneducated is completely unfounded. It also means that the disdain that Americans have for European economic and political ideologies is also unfounded, because a democracy depends on an educated and well-informed population, and if the people of the US are fundamentally less intelligent than those of European countries, by extension this means that their economic model is likely to be superior since in a democracy the people are fundamentally the ones that choose the model (maybe not the implementation).

Or...you're just wrong, in which case there is at least one thing that other countries do in their education systems that Americans, as a nation or as individuals, don't. Which goes back to the whole intelligence thing.

I have to say the US education is one of the best in the world already in terms of resources. Sure not every school has all the resources available to them, but in most of the major cities, parents have all the info and the freedom to send their kids to schools to give them all the education they need to be successful - if the parents and the kids have the will.

If you look at the curriculum, most high schools offer collage level AP course. If you look at facilities, most schools have the sport facilities, swimming pools, high level competition in sports, math, science and many other fields. If you look at teachers and administrators, US teachers to student ratios is one of the least in the world, and most school have all kinds of counselor available for all kinds of problems. And yeah, that's why US education cost so much.

Is anecdotal evidence, or is this backed up by a census-type audit/evaluation of secondary schools? Because if this is anecdote, then do you honestly believe that you, or even you and everyone you know, can representatively and objectively evaluate the entire secondary education sector of a 300-million strong country? And if this is backed up by published evidence, I'd personally love to see it. Should be interesting reading.

 

[PrinceofWands]

BTW how much of that 90 IQ becomes 110 if you work your mind for 12-14 years from pre-k to 12?

Most research shows no more than a 1 SD shift from genetic disposition, regardless of environment. That means you're maxing out at 14-16 point shifts under perfect conditions, with perfect luck. IQ is pretty much IQ. You get what you're born with, +/- a VERY small number (barring serious trauma of course). Education /= intellect.

 

[mcmilljb]

I have to say the US education is one of the best in the world already in terms of resources. Sure not every school has all the resources available to them, but in most of the major cities, parents have all the info and the freedom to send their kids to schools to give them all the education they need to be successful - if the parents and the kids have the will.

If you look at the curriculum, most high schools offer collage level AP course. If you look at facilities, most schools have the sport facilities, swimming pools, high level competition in sports, math, science and many other fields. If you look at teachers and administrators, US teachers to student ratios is one of the least in the world, and most school have all kinds of counselor available for all kinds of problems. And yeah, that's why US education cost so much.

And if kids and parents have the will, they will have no problem to thrive in the US education system. My uncle and aunt are first generation immigrants and their son went to Harvard, and there are many examples like them.

The problem like many people already said, is with the US culture that look down at smart and hard working people. And the laziness, the entitlement mentality that comes with rich and developed society. And the politicization of the education systems, ideals and vision.

Unless you change most people's mentality, throwing money, copy other systems, isn't going to do anything.

The problem with major cities is that they have most of the poor and failing schools. People with money move to the suburbs; the ones still living in the city send their kids to private schools. Money drives schools to be better. However, money is wasted at the top levels when it's better spent at the lower levels.

The biggest joke played on parents by the high school education system is the AP program. Seriously it is the biggest joke. Most AP classes are year long (some are shorter), and you prepare for the big AP exam. You fail that one exam, and you don't get college credit. Plus you get different levels of credit depending on your score. States you should just certify their teachers so that their students do not need to take the AP for college credit in their state. I know it sounds silly at first, but it makes sense when you think about the AP exam. It amounts to cramming for one exam. Also think about what those credits are; first year courses. That's right, you take a multiple choice, cram exam to get credit for first college courses. However teachers, evaluating their students on a daily basis, have a better understanding of what the student actually knows. I think the AP exam should be optional and mostly for students wanting college credit outside their own state.

Once again, not every school has great facilities. However I don't believe having a really nice facility is the optimal solution. Get the student prepared quickly for the next level and send him on his way. A lot of students can and should be graduating high school early. Hell we should be giving scholarships to students who graduate early since they just saved the state a bunch of money. A school doesn't need to look pretty, it just needs to do its job well. Also do not believe in the student to teacher ratio is as important as they want to make it out to be. With technology, you can have lectures prerecorded so the student can watch ahead of time. Then they can ask better questions in class. You can also provide students with tutors who can help them. These can be college students getting paid a few bucks and are on a scholarship.

I agree that you can get far with discipline and a great attitude, you can get quite far using the resources available to students and aprents. I have seen people just scraping by get into college programs that are going provide them with well paying jobs are they get out. Hell my mom's father is a first generation American, and he designed planes with McDonnell Douglas and Northrup Grumman.

You can change society. Part of the problem was created by government, and it can be used to fix it. If we quit subsidizing low demand degrees and put that money towards high demand programs, we can get a high return on that investment. Give incentives to do well, and quit rewarding bad behavior.

 

[Exterous]

Today, some schools don't even give grades for fear of failure.

Some schools don't even hold you back if you fail a pre-requisite class or two

And the laziness, the entitlement mentality that comes with rich and developed society. And the politicization of the education systems, ideals and vision.

Unless you change most people's mentality, throwing money, copy other systems, isn't going to do anything.

If you can get the school administration, teachers and, perhaps most importantly, the parents involved and playing nicely with eachother you will have a good to great school district. Sadly, it seems most districts are more interested in playing the blame game.

Frankly I am a firm believer that the parents hold the most power over the school districts in the long term. They vote in the administrators that make the policies that the teachers are forced to follow. They also typically sit on the school boards and vote on policies enacted. If you get a good group of parents voting in good administrators you end up with good policies and a good learning environment.

If you vote in crappy administrators that are only interested in making the short sighted/uninvolved parents happy in order to get re-elected you end up with policies like:
-Parents deciding if their child should repeat a class after failing it (instead of the school)
-Children being allowed to check cell phones in class (Parents might need to get a hold of them in case of emergencey. Apparently the schools phones weren't good enough)
-Minimum grade requirements (no one gets below a 50% even if the did 0 work or got all teh questions wrong)
-No letter grades
-No winners/losers in sports

Also do not believe in the student to teacher ratio is as important as they want to make it out to be. With technology, you can have lectures prerecorded so the student can watch ahead of time.

That depends on the attitude of your students. If you have well behaved, disciplined students then you would be correct. Unfortunately a lot of our schools are filled with mouthy, ill-tempered, self centered, entitlement minded students who would rather text on their phone than pay attention and we force the schools to handle them with one hand tied behind their back.

 

[Atreus21]

Is there any empirical research into the effects of voucher-based education vs. public education?

 

[Macamus Prime]

Money is everything.

When most white kids go out and spend their money on music that has nothing to do with them (,... you live a hard life in the ghetto,... really? go back into your 4 bedroom 2 bath suburban home and shove doritos in your fat face, you puggy fuck), the artists are propelled to wealth and power.

So, those that DO live in urban settings decide to shoot for that dream as well.

Another example; sports. Why crack the books open when you can get more wealth, fame and power with sports. We even pluck the down and out people from other countries to play on our teams.

We live in a society where those who are well off, are paraded around constantly. So, we naturally want what they have. And as a result, we deprive ourselves from the basics; like math, because math will not get you a TV show or TMZ to cover the hissy fit you had with the bag packer at Target.

It has gotten SO bad, that those who can't make it to the top, gun for C-list celebrity exposure. Look at all the stupid reality shows; do you mother fuckers really care about the Kardashians? Well,... it looks like you do.

,... damn you America.

 

[piasabird]

I think a lot of this is just fudging of scores by other countries. So many people from foreign countries would not come to school here if it was so bad! Also, because of government funding colleges and universities are being given too much funding and too much free grants, and there is no requirement to keep costs down if an educational institution accepts federal and state money. These educational institutions are out of control. If we trun off the flow of federal money, then maybe they will lower tuition costs.

My son is going to Brigham Young University and the costs there are significantly less than at most other Universities. It is a lot less than University of Illinois in Champaign/Urbana, Illinois. It is probably a better education also.

There is another problem with the government giving all these corporations H1B Visas to hire foreign workers also. Just force them to hire Americans. What is happening is a lot of Universities have cut back on a lot of technical degrees because American graduates are not being hired. This is just one more case of the government causeing more trouble and fixing a problem that does not exist.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/homeland-security-loses-track-of-nearly-6-million-immigrants/

Following Sept. 11, one would assume that the U.S. government’s broken system for tracking illegals would be better than ever. Unfortunately, reality paints the opposite picture. Despite being attacked by Middle Eastern terrorists whose visas had expired, the U.S. is still failing to properly examine immigrants’ status.

Unfortunately, there are millions of foreigners who initially come here legally, but do not maintain the proper immigration status. Judicial Watch has more:

…nearly half of the nation’s estimated 12 million illegal immigrants actually entered the U.S. legally but overstayed their visa, according to a new federal report. That’s because the agency responsible for keeping the nation safe—the Department of Homeland Security—can’t keep track of immigrants who remain in the U.S. after their visas expire.

This clearly creates a huge national security issue because terrorists can plot more attacks from within. In fact, dozens of foreigners convicted of terrorism since the 2001 attacks had overstayed their visas, according to the report, which was published by the investigative arm of Congress known as the Government Accountability Office (GAO).

Maybe we should start demanding these people pay a $10,000 bond on all student visas that they forfeight if the visa expires without them leaving the country. We could use that money to chase them down and send them back.

We also need to cut back on all the visas we issue every year. If so many people just never leave, then maybe we should quit issuing all these visas.

 

[MagickMan]

the answer: American parents suck

 

[Paul98]

This is not surprising how the majority of schools are run, and how the teachers are made to teach. Not to teach everyone at the level they are at, but try to spend the most time with the worst performers. Teaching just to get the students to get a passing grade for the grade they are in. If they can read at the current level that's all that matters. So they aren't spending time with students that already are past the level they need to be at for that grade. The system is stupid, and the teachers can only do so much with how they are made to teach.

 

[highland145]

I blame the parents. I also blame a lack of privatization of education. But mostly, the parents. And the pussification of America ... everyone needs to be "equal" and people focus more on "PC" than actually educating.

the answer: American parents suck

Parents. Or is that parent. Or is that Grand parent.......

 

[piasabird]

Just give them an F and fail them every year and make them pay to go to summer school or go to remedial school at night. One big problem is allowing childrent to pass with a D. In college D is often a failing grade and will not transfer to another school. If you can not get a GPA of 2.0 that is failing. Passing students with a D Average is a joke. It is not helping them at all.

 

[Arglebargle]

Not enough focus on early education. The most important grades are kindergarten, and first and second grade. If you set the kids up well then, you will get your best results all through the educational levels. Sadly, that period gets far too little respect and attention.

 

[mchammer187]

Most of the blame comes from parents and urban culture where being smart is looked down apart or even viewed as selling out.

Look at 60 minutes: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/21/60minutes/main6506911.shtml

inner city school boarding school with I think 100% college acceptance rate

basically that is how much attention is required once kids reach junior high to pretty much undo everything.

Pretty crazy since 90% of the people I grew up with take college for granted.

if you have a chance to listen to http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/364/going-big

than listen to act 1 it really is an amazing piece.

 

[JS80]

Indeed, I was wrong there, but the fund was pretty much Soros'. I've read several books which attribute the bulk of the returns to Soros.

Soros is worth $11bn, how much is Rogers worth? He isn't even on the Forbes list. Some say he's worth less than $100mm.

You hook your wagon to an American that doesn't even believe in the country that provided him his chance, I'll stick to the one that is still here trying to make things work.

Once this whole Asian shit calms down, I'll laugh my ass off at Roger's shitty bet. Maybe he'll even eat crow and move back here.

I bet 95% of his wealth is in tax-free munis and/or life insurance products and the rest in his "trading account" so he can go on CNBC and sound legendary.

 

[JS80]

I was listening to legendary billionaire investor Jim Rogers today on BBC radio and he was saying we spend 3x as much as other countries on education but our children rank 22nd when tested against the rest of the world. What a horrible investment. So what's going on?

How do Japanese Americans fare to Japanese students? Koreans vs Korean Americans? $100k HHI American family vs $100k HHI Swedish family.

Compare the verticals - they are more appropriate, and will probably be more in line.

 

[quikah]

Most of the blame comes from parents and urban culture where being smart is looked down apart or even viewed as selling out.

Look at 60 minutes: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/21/60minutes/main6506911.shtml

inner city school boarding school with I think 100% college acceptance rate

I would be curious to see statistics for the kids who DON'T get picked. Just applying indicates some motivation lacking in the general populace.

 

[polarmystery]

What is the incentive for education (in lower class cultures here at home) when the successful people that we display the most in the media continue to stay rich without education (mostly)? IE: singers, athletes, actors, etc. Show me a society that glorifies education in the same manner, and you will see education scores improve drastically.

 

[LegendKiller]

How do Japanese Americans fare to Japanese students? Koreans vs Korean Americans? $100k HHI American family vs $100k HHI Swedish family.

Compare the verticals - they are more appropriate, and will probably be more in line.

Doesn't stop doofs like OP from wanting to slobber on his dick just because he says some stupid shit like $200 oil in 2008 or how fucked the US is. The fact of the matter is that Soros long considered him inferior and has said so more recently. The fact that Rogers "retired" after cashing out of the fund that Soros started, traded, and made successful and hasn't done dick after only shows that his mout his large but his ability was small.

I don't have $150mm, but he doesn't deserve the credit he's given.

 

[disappoint]

My point is even with sub 90 IQs you can get a successful education because material is not quantum physics, you just have to work harder, a lot harder. We don't work as hard and race, poverty, computers, etc is just a cop-out or used by sites like yours to feed racism. Either way it's quitting and can'ts - two words not in my vocabulary - and shouldn't be in the US's vocabulary.

BTW how much of that 90 IQ becomes 110 if you work your mind for 12-14 years from pre-k to 12?

Unless there is some serious brain damage, just about every 90 IQ can become 110, 120 IQ or higher. But they have to want it, and if they did, they probably wouldn't have scored a 90 IQ in the first place.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Unless there is some serious brain damage, just about every 90 IQ can become 110, 120 IQ or higher. But they have to want it, and if they did, they probably wouldn't have scored a 90 IQ in the first place.

You are utterly, and completely wrong. You need to do some cognitive psychology research. IQ generally doesn't change much, and almost never more or less than 1SD from genetic disposition. This has held true across nearly all studies ever conducted. Environment is only marginally impacting. Most of IQ is purely inherent. Also, education/knowledge has next to nothing to do with IQ.

 

[halik]

In 10 years his fund did 4200% vs 47% stock market did for one and that should be enough for legendary status. And he's right about heading East too and USA being a has been. You'll see.

Pick 10x beta stocks and you'll get the same result...