Modern Graphics Cards vs. Game Consoles

[pw38]

*snip*

3 years of Xbox live usage = $360, that is a one sweet video card and MANY games.

What are you paying for a year of Live? I used to pay 50 a year when I still had my 360 which wasn't anywhere near that total. I guess if you did by the month but what idiot would do that versus just shelling out for a full year? Even at the new price it's relatively cheap for the convenience of it all. That's what the charge is for, as you must be aware. Of course for someone who's savvy enough to build a pc in the first place paying for online gameplay isn't a good deal but for the Joe Shmoe out there it's a definite bargain. How many here can change their own oil or air filter or brakes or etc.? It's far cheaper for you to get the parts yourself and do the work but most don't because they're either uncomfortable dealing with it or it's not worth their time. It's all relative. I pay for the convenience of car service, same as those who pay for Live. It's a closed, easy platform for the guys from work to come home to and play Madden all night with his buddies.

lol wow sorry for the rant.

 

[frozentundra123456]

It is kind of amazing that games that run on such low end console hardware can require such high (relatively) system requirements for the PC. I have a 9800GT which is much stronger than a console, but many games are now becoming CPU limited because they are so poorly ported from the console and require a fast CPU for the PC.
For instance Blops stuttered incessantly on my system, even though the graphics looked like a 4 or 5 year old game. (I have an E4500 in an off the shelf system that cannot be overclocked).

 

[frozentundra123456]

all my friends want me to get an xbox 360 and i go why when my computer is generations ahead of that old technology

Maybe because 90% of the games for the PC today are crappy console ports that you might actually have a better experience with on the xbox??

 

[-Slacker-]

(I have an E4500 in an off the shelf system that cannot be overclocked).

Uh ... you're mad about not being able to run games at decent frame rates on a cpu that was released not long after the ps3 and was low end even then? ....k

 

[Voo]

Maybe because 90% of the games for the PC today are crappy console ports that you might actually have a better experience with on the xbox??

Actually "crappy console ports" usually only apply to the hardware requirements which are higher than necessary. But you get the better IO (keyboard + mouse >>> controller) and extensibility (mods, character editors, save game editors,...)

 

[Gloomy]

I'm 100% on a laptop nowadays. Even though mobile graphics are anemic in comparison to desktop graphics, I find mid-range mobile graphics more than robust enough to run the games I want to play.

 

[taltamir]

It is kind of amazing that games that run on such low end console hardware can require such high (relatively) system requirements for the PC

False things tend to be amazing.
PC games have the ability to lower resolution and quality at will, allowing you to run games on much weaker machines than a console. PCs scale up AND down.

Exceptions exist, but only due to badly programmed games

 

[Seero]

The purpose of a game console is meanly for gaming, while the purpose of a PC is everything. It is much easier to develop games on consoles as you don't have to worry about different configurations, which also means better/specific optimization.

Also, nowadays consoles comes with motion detection and even body movement detection. These gatgets don't work and will not work on PCs when it comes to gaming. Yes people can mod the gatget, but the games that are designed to take use of those won't run on PCs. There are lots of games that runs of consoles and PCs, but there are also games that only runs on consoles, like GT and FF.

Price is another issue. It is more expensive to build a PC that performs like a console, plus you need to worry about drivers and competabilities. OS comes at 150 bucks alone, which is the roughly price of a xbox360.

Friends told me to get a PS3 ... to watch blue rays. With the correct modification, you can watch whatever clips you downloaded to your PC on your TV wirelessly.

Having said all that, I'm actually waiting for a phone that can do that. All it needs is enough memory to store the game (external storage for other games), and an external dock for extra cooling, power and an HDMI output.

 

[-Slacker-]

Also, nowadays consoles comes with motion detection and even body movement detection. These gatgets don't work and will not work on PCs when it comes to gaming.

PC's have exclusive features as well.

Yes people can mod the gatget, but the games that are designed to take use of those won't run on PCs.

I'm not really all that up to speed with the kinect thing, but I'd still like to know how you know that...

There are lots of games that runs of consoles and PCs, but there are also games that only runs on consoles, like GT and FF.

And vice versa.

Price is another issue. It is more expensive to build a PC that performs like a console, plus you need to worry about drivers and competabilities. OS comes at 150 bucks alone, which is the roughly price of a xbox360.

Lol

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827106289

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811233061

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136073

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813138180

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130572

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139017

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820144478

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103714


^ $300 after all rebates and promo codes. Wipes the floor with a ps3. Add $10 more and you have yourself a hd 5770

The best thing about it - it's already a PC, so you got that part covered, whereas, if you're getting a console, you're still going to slap at least $200-250 for a pc.

 

[taltamir]

The purpose of a game console is meanly for gaming

Thats not what console makers say.

while the purpose of a PC is everything.

Which is why you have one already.

It is much easier to develop games on consoles as you don't have to worry about different configurations

it is not in any way shape or form easier to develop for consoles, especially overly complex ones like the PS3.

And consoles do come in various hardware setups, they are just kept within the same PERFORMANCE levels. the newest xbox360 models contain a special structure in their CPU whose sole purpose is to slow it down, making it the same SPEED as older models. And it is not in any way shape or form "easier" to program to such an expected target.

if anything, its harder due to how limited it is. With a PC you can just program the game, then optimize it until you decide its "good enough", that good enough could be more wasteful. the more wasteful it is, the higher your requirements are. with a console you are constrained with very specific envelope of performance and must optimize until your game fits within it.
In effect, developers are forced to program more to ensure they are even able to run on such outdated hardware, a costly and lengthy process.

finally, console hardware changes completely with each generation in such a way as to not be compatible. While x86 has been around for 20+ years. our modern x86 chips are faster, but you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time AND there are tools, knowledge, optimized compilers, etc. which you can use. On the other hand, new consoles are more of a blank slate in terms of prior work done on them. You saw how long it took for comes to start coming out in larger numbers for the PS3.

which also means better/specific optimization.

1. See above for why it isn't
2. No amount of specific optimizations would ever overcome the sheer shortfall of having such outdated hardware.
3. nVidia and AMD actually provide code which is optimized for their cards which you can easily integrate into games on the PC.

Price is another issue. It is more expensive to build a PC that performs like a console, plus you need to worry about drivers and competabilities. OS comes at 150 bucks alone, which is the roughly price of a xbox360.

you yourself said that "pc is for everything"...
EVERYONE has a PC, all they need is a video card and maybe a PSU upgrade.
And an xbox 360 is not 150$, not by a long shot.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Uh ... you're mad about not being able to run games at decent frame rates on a cpu that was released not long after the ps3 and was low end even then? ....k

You have a point, I know my CPU is limited. But to make it clear, I am still upset by really bad porting jobs such as blops, and that a franchise that started out on the PC has shafted the platform so badly.
My point is that COD4 MW ran perfectly at high settings on my system, and I thought the graphics were decent. Blops runs like crap despite multiple patches, and if anything the graphics look worse to me than COD4.

 

[taltamir]

You have a point, I know my CPU is limited. But to make it clear, I am still upset by really bad porting jobs such as blops, and that a franchise that started out on the PC has shafted the platform so badly.
My point is that COD4 MW ran perfectly at high settings on my system, and I thought the graphics were decent. Blops runs like crap despite multiple patches, and if anything the graphics look worse to me than COD4.

to be fair, shoddy programming DOES occur on console games as well. It was the result of the video game meltdown of the 80s, afterwards console makers did proper QC for a while. But nowadays consoles all have the ability to patch games via the internet, so we are back to crappy games. Almost every xbox360 game me and my brother own requires patches to fix bugs that should have never been there, just like in PC games.

 

[lsv]

60 FPS is good for multiplayer FPS, but I don't play anything multiplayer. I'm a single player kind of guy. 30-20 FPS does just fine.

I found the Xbox and PS3 get around 30-45fps tops in Single Player new games and 30~ in Multiplayer. It's really jittery to me. I just can't do it. It was really bad when I tried out 3D at the Sony Store, just terrible low FPS.

 

[Voo]

it is not in any way shape or form easier to develop for consoles, especially overly complex ones like the PS3.

Can't agree with that. While the PS3 is surely harder to efficiently program than a PC, it's still much easier to write software for it, because the hard part is testing it. With the PS3 you've got one version where you have to test your program, with PCs there are billions of combinations of different hardware, different OSes, different drivers. Also with the exact architecture in mind you can much easier write efficient programs for it - impossible in the open PC eco system (sure you can manually tweak the SSE4 code created by the compiler or even write it yourself, but have fun doing the exact thing for the SSE2 and 3 codepaths.. oh and AVX).
Which still doesn't mean it's impossible to write buggy programs for a console and bugfree ones for a console, it's just harder and takes more effort.

the newest xbox360 models contain a special structure in their CPU whose sole purpose is to slow it down, making it the same SPEED as older models. And it is not in any way shape or form "easier" to program to such an expected target.

It surely is, you know from the get to go the exact specs of the CPU you're programming for. The added complexity is perfectly hidden from the programmer and only interests the people writing the new system in verilog or whatever.

 

[Seero]

And vice versa.

If console games rock your boat, then buy one. If not, but don't have a blueray player or a multi-PC, get a PS3 and soft-mod it(haven't done it myself, friends told me so).

1. See above for why it isn't
2. No amount of specific optimizations would ever overcome the sheer shortfall of having such outdated hardware.
3. nVidia and AMD actually provide code which is optimized for their cards which you can easily integrate into games on the PC.

I'm not arguing the fact that PC is more capable, specially when you can swap in new video cards. I'm just stating the reason of consoles' existence. In the PC world, you have to worry about different OS, drivers, settings, and hardwares. On console, the varieties are much less. How many people are still on 32bit CPU? and how many people are using 32 OS on 64bit machines? How many games are 64 bits? How many people can play 64 bit games?

Your PC may be far ahead of consoles, but that doesn't mean everyone's PC is far ahead of consoles. Yes, you can swap in a new video card, but how much is that video card? Will your PSU supports the new video card?

Those who bought xbox360 since release probably haven't bought anything else but a HDD, which was designed to snap in. If a game doesn't run, then then the xbox is broken, very simple conclusion. No need to worry if you have the latest drivers and stuffs like that.

Also, xbox games are designed for xbox, and therefore you don't have to worry about whether your xbox is fast enough for the game and the game itself is designed and tested on xbox.

Again, I am sure you can put together a PC far more capable than xbox, but the problem is you don't have access to alter the game. If the game's resolution is capped at 720p, it really doesn't matter if your PC can support 239485p, the game is still going to run at 720p. This is the type of optimization I am talking about. No need to support varies resolution, just the selected few. The size of viewport have great impact on performance as the number of objects to load depends on it. Unlike PC, 3xTV ain't going to add viewing space on your xbox because it isn't designed to.

Again, if a game comes in consoles and pc version, i will alway buy the PC version. Now there are games with the use of kinect, there is no chance for me to play on PC. Wiimode goaf? Nope. I spent lots of time searching for emulators and none of them works correctly, so without the specified consoles, I can't play the game, regardless of my 12xvideo card, 100core CPU@3T PC, I simply can't play.

Yes, you are correct, i don't have 12xvideo card, 100core CPU@3T PC. My PC is capable of playing any console ports, but I can't play GT! NO GT!!!

So I play Dirt2. Yeah, I don't own a console.

 

[taltamir]

you WERE arguing that a console is more capable, you made a whole bunch of false arguments why. It was supposedly cheaper (it isn't), easier to program for (it isn't), can be optimized further (not really), easier to optimize (not really, it just FORCES the developer to need to invest all that money into further optimizations just to run)...

There is certainly reasons why consoles exist. Execs believe it has less piracy (it doesn't), it allows them to sell a locked platform where they charge more money for exclusives (which they pay companies to make). And as you just said (and I have before), it caters to the completely and utterly computer illiterate who can not even manage installing a game, much less altering its graphics settings.

If the game's resolution is capped at 720p, it really doesn't matter if your PC can support 239485p, the game is still going to run at 720p. This is the type of optimization I am talking about

Wow, just wow. I gave you far too much credit when I assumed you meant optimized code paths! no, you believe that consoles are more optimized... because they cap your resolution at 720p?

FYI, nothing is stopping a PC game maker from capping the resolution in such a way, except that doing so is really stupid. A few PC game makers have done so anyways.
A 720p resolution cap is not an optimization, and the fact most console games have it is a shortfall of theirs.

 

[NYHoustonman]

easier to program for (it isn't)

I'm an engineer, not a programmer, so take this with a grain of salt, but I see two sizable challenges in programming a game for PC vs. console. First, as mentioned, you have to account for most (if not all) combinations of hardware out there. Second, you need to give the user the ability to scale detail settings based on their hardware, and maybe even optimize each combination there. While the PC programmer is busy doing this, the console programmer is optimizing their game, something that the former might not have as much time for.

 

[taltamir]

First, as mentioned, you have to account for most (if not all) combinations of hardware out there.

No you don't. You program for direct X, direct X is than handled by the video card drivers (AMD, nVidia, or intel). Its called abstraction. There are actually many, MANY more layers of abstraction going on in the PC... but you have the exact same amount in a console... to quote wikipedia

In a console-specific version, DirectX was used as a basis for Microsoft's Xbox and Xbox 360 console API. The API was developed jointly between Microsoft and Nvidia, who developed the custom graphics hardware used by the original Xbox. The Xbox API is similar to DirectX version 8.1, but is non-updateable like other console technologies. The Xbox was code named DirectXbox, but this was shortened to Xbox for its commercial name

You also get your AA code premade courtesy of nvidia / AMD. And for physics probably use PhysX (most widely used physics engine ever... since its free; but only the CPU version, the amount of games with GPU physX capability is significantly lower)

Second, you need to give the user the ability to scale detail settings based on their hardware

No you don't. It is just really smart and beneficial to do so. It isn't terribly difficult do and has tremendous payoff. However, some games (particularly indie games made by one single guy in a basement) don't give you the option to change quality settings at all. They just aim at a certain points, if below it, then you can't play it. If above it, then you can't improve graphics.
Aside from that, some console ports ALSO don't let you change anything about graphics quality, they simply run everything, and you just either meet the requirements or you don't.

The ability to scale is a completely optional advantage of the PC. And being optional, not everyone uses it.

While the PC programmer is busy doing this, the console programmer is optimizing their game, something that the former might not have as much time for.

Time is money, the console programmer MUST spend much time optimizing each little thing to the max... it takes skill, time and effort. The average PC today is so much more powerful that consoles of the same age that the PC programmer does not even have to deal with those things. The PC game developer doesn't NEED to optimize every last ounce of performance out of the game...
Recall that a modern PC has 4+GB of ram, while current consoles have 0.5GB, same as a cell phone.
And in term of processing power? consoles have a tiny fraction. Optimization can wring a little more performance, but it isn't magic. There is only so much you can do, and you can't optimize away such a huge difference in computational resources.

 

[borisvodofsky]

A ps3/xbox 360 are about equal to a 7900gtx/x1900xt in graphic performance, as far as can remember.

NO fucking way.. Close but no where near the desktop iterations of those cards. more likely the 7900gs or 1900 pro..

 

[Seero]

you WERE arguing that a console is more capable....

Easier coding:
You can be closed minded and accuse me whatever ways you want. I made 2 posts here, and none of them stated that console > PC. If you don't believe me, reread it. The resolution cap is simply one of the examples of why it is easier. It is true that hardware in a specific console is dated, but it is also because of that, it is easier to work with. NYHoustonman understands. It is as simple as, user settings based on different combination of hardwares.

Price:
Slacker listed some cheap components to build a PC, adding that 8 items = 392.92 not including tax, OS, keyboard, mouse, wireless card and bluray. How much is a PS3 now? XBox360?

Look, what I said above don't show that consoles > PC in terms of gaming. I don't have a console myself because I too believe that one PC is enough. PC gaming itself isn't worst compare to console gaming, but sometimes you probably want to ask yourself a simple question "Does 3D 3x1080p a requirement for a good game?" The quality of graphics isn't the most important thing in terms of gaming. If however it is to you, then consoles probably won't be your cup of tea.

Consoles and PCs are not mutually exclusive products. Some bought a cheap PC to serve the web, and upgrading it to a high-end level may require a big investment (>1k). Some have cutting-edge PC and also have multiple consoles. I have friends of that type and we play console games together at their house. Yeah, street fighter and alike games. 4p cartoon racing, Wii-spot and alike are actually dumb if you play yourself, but fun if you play with people. You don't need 2600k+3x580SLI to play, and it is still fun. I don't invite them to my house to play games unless it is online games, and they need to bring their laptops with them. Why? Yes, I can buy SF PC version easily, but shall we share the same keyboard and start touching hands? Actually, when they come over, they will bring their consoles + games, no problems. Plug and play. I however never ever brought my PC over to their house.

I assume you are not as "out" as I do because my friends all have PSP and they go out and play together at tea shop. Supreme graphics? I don't think so, but then I never have the chance to play monster hunter which they all were crazy about.

Have you played Angry Birds? I haven't, but my friends did. High degree of dynamic tessellation in 3D? Or is it simply a fun game? I read about it, but haven't played it. Can this be a good reason to buy a smartphone or shall I say "My PC is 100x faster, better, sexier than your crappy phone?"

 

[happy medium]

Consoles suck vs pc......................../ thread

Take your 1900xtx graphics your low end cpu's and get out of our space.


The reason I can still use a overclocked 5750 is because of crappy a$$ consoles.
Wait is that good or bad?

 

[NoQuarter]

Have you played Angry Birds? I haven't, but my friends did. High degree of dynamic tessellation in 3D? Or is it simply a fun game? I read about it, but haven't played it. Can this be a good reason to buy a smartphone or shall I say "My PC is 100x faster, better, sexier than your crappy phone?"

I dunno why people love Angry Birds so much. I played the "same" game as a free flash game years ago (wasn't based on birds and pigs though) and it worked much better with a mouse cursor to pull back the slingshot than trying to do it with a touch screen.

Uhm. Yea, back on topic.

 

[andrei3333]

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/6965/3dps309go0.jpg

that post is pretty accurate

 

[taltamir]

Price:
Slacker listed some cheap components to build a PC, adding that 8 items = 392.92 not including tax, OS, keyboard, mouse, wireless card and bluray. How much is a PS3 now? XBox360?

1. He should only have counted the video card and MAYBE the PSU. Because thats all you need to add to your existing PC... which you already have because you must in today's world.
2. The xbox360 with the smallest drive (but with a drive) and a kinect costs 399$. 320$ without the kinect (but with smallest HDD)
The arcade edition (199$) is what I like calling the "unusable edition". It doesn't even have a harddrive for crying out loud!
The PS3 starts at 299$. You can get a GOOD 500 watt PSU for under 50$, that leaves quite a lot of money for video card to annihilate your console.
Now, what if you are a poor sod that has an ancient dinosaur of a PC with less power than the modern cell phone? well, you can swap mobo, ram and processor as well and keep the rest. Or just buy a console, since you can't expect the average person to build their own computer (with a video card / PSU you can get a free install with your purchase at any brick and mortar store).

Have you played Angry Birds? I haven't, but my friends did. High degree of dynamic tessellation in 3D? Or is it simply a fun game? I read about it, but haven't played it. Can this be a good reason to buy a smartphone or shall I say "My PC is 100x faster, better, sexier than your crappy phone?"

First and foremost, I said that the phone is equal/passing consoles in SOME aspects (ram, not all of them), not that the PC is better than the phone. The PC IS better than a phone, but it is not what I said...

Second, this is a False Dichotomy. more than one in fact.
1. You are suggesting a game may either be fun OR have high quality graphics.
2. You are suggesting a game may either utilize cutting edge graphics, or not be allowed on the PC.

I am, right now, playing (and enjoying) the following browser based games on the PC:
Billy Vs. Snakeman
Kingdom of Loathing
Twilight Heroes (superhero game, has nothing to do with the creepy vampire book fanfic slashfic of same name)

I also enjoy a bunch of indie games with low graphical quality, games like:
on the rain slick precipice of darkness
The Spirit Engine 2
Gish
and a bunch of not indie but otherwise casual games.

I play those alongside bigger A title games (big budget 3d games). I played batman arkham asylum on the PC, as well as mafia 2, assassin creed 1&2 and just cause 2. Which, if you remember, also available on consoles.
Here is where the power difference comes into play.

Upgrading a "do everything" PC to a gaming PC is cheaper than a console, buying the games is cheaper, I can plug it into a TV, I have an xbox360 controller FOR the PC if I am inclined to use it (but i normally use the much superior mouse + keyboard combo) and I can adjust my graphics up.

You claim that you made no claims that console is better than PC. But I didn't refer to an OVERALL claim (aka, console > PC overall), I referred to your myriad false individual claims on how a console is better (console is better priced than PC, console is more fun than PC, etc). I demolished those one by one. You might have not rendered judgement overall (and frankly, I doubt that, but I will let it lie), but you have made a bunch of individual spurious claims that you cannot defend.

and upgrading it to a high-end level may require a big investment (>1k)

This is possibly the most obtuse statement you ever made. Come now, you are not even trying anymore.
You said this IN THE SAME POST:

Price:
Slacker listed some cheap components to build a PC, adding that 8 items = 392.92 not including tax, OS, keyboard, mouse, wireless card and bluray. How much is a PS3 now? XBox360?

You yourself incorrectly cite the cost of building a BRAND NEW gaming PC (not upgrading existing PC to play games, building a new one, as if you are a Luddite who doesn't own a PC already) at 392.92$... how in twizzlers did you get the 1k+ dollars REQUIRED to upgrade an existing computer to play game?

 

[Mono44]

I'm an engineer, not a programmer, so take this with a grain of salt, but I see two sizable challenges in programming a game for PC vs. console. First, as mentioned, you have to account for most (if not all) combinations of hardware out there. Second, you need to give the user the ability to scale detail settings based on their hardware, and maybe even optimize each combination there. While the PC programmer is busy doing this, the console programmer is optimizing their game, something that the former might not have as much time for.

The challenges don't exist, good games programming houses (like iD software) exist. Take almost every iD game. Most of them almost never crash, ever. The real issue most of the time is bad programming on the programmer side. Microsoft does analyses on why apps and games crash and the vast majority of the time it's bugs caused by bad code - i.e. poorly written code. Not from "compatibility problems". It's just people who suck really really badly at coding. The real issue is that coding has such a low barrier to entry you get all sorts of losers in the game industry because that industry is like a nerd hollywood there are tonnes of losers trying to get in.

In the olden days I would have agreed with you but since Windows XP I have never had driver or compatibility issues, ever. The most I've had to do was install the latest version of direct x because of those additional cab files that's it.

I play a tonne of games on the PC both old and new gaming has come a long way on the PC. If games crash it's because of bad coding practices 99% of the time and a lack of robust coding skills.

Coding and tools to develop software right now is in the dark ages.