Mod Sponsored Community Poll - Your Input is Requested

Page 13 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

The P&N community needs it's moderators to:

  • Enforce the existing posting guidelines more consistently "go by the book"

  • Change absolutely nothing, keep current levels of enforcement "as is"

  • There are some things that need more enforcement, but let's not go full monte with the rulebook "on


Results are only viewable after voting.

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,810
10,478
147
The noise will abate, but so will page clicks. I guess it all depends what is more important to the management......

Page clicks have never, even the tiniest bit whatsoever, been a factor of any kind in decisions on how to moderate the forums.

In all of my many conversations with Anand, and he and I talk regularly and have talked on the phone, quite often for more than an hour at a time and at least once for more than two hours, page clicks/traffic/popularity as a function of moderating philosophy/actions has never once come up, not even "hint, hint" sideways or implied.

So, sorry, but you can put that one to rest.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Page clicks have never, even the tiniest bit whatsoever, been a factor of any kind in decisions on how to moderate the forums.

In all of my many conversations with Anand, and he and I talk regularly and have talked on the phone, quite often for more than an hour at a time and at least once for more than two hours, page clicks/traffic/popularity as a function of moderating philosophy/actions has never once come up, not even "hint, hint" sideways or implied.

So, sorry, but you can put that one to rest.

Well if you 2 would stop phone sexing maybe it would come up...
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
Page clicks have never, even the tiniest bit whatsoever, been a factor of any kind in decisions on how to moderate the forums.

In all of my many conversations with Anand, and he and I talk regularly and have talked on the phone, quite often for more than an hour at a time and at least once for more than two hours, page clicks/traffic/popularity as a function of moderating philosophy/actions has never once come up, not even "hint, hint" sideways or implied.

So, sorry, but you can put that one to rest.

I am a little suprised by that. I don't personally think it is a bad thing to consider the impact of rules on traffic. It costs money to fuel these forums so there does have to be a balance struck somewhere. However, (you can correct me if I'm wrong) P&N may not attract that much traffic on its own in comparison to the rest of the forum so nuking it from orbit may not affect overall traffic that much.

Anyway, my inner dictator doesn't get the desire to poll the membership's wants and needs, especially given the predictable noise it generated. Try to give them what they want and end up being called a fucking prick....but here I am telling you what I want, hah! My advice: Make a command decision and see how things play out, just because you do something today doesn't mean that if turns to crap you are stuck doing it forever.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
76
Apparently, a moderator came to the same conclusion..
Everyone has their bias. Criticising no "stoning" existing for a person citing, but one, news source as having been lynched and "hit on the head by a rock," is what I'd judge to be a fairly petty critique through semantics, and not warranted to be a charge trolling nor baiting. The moderator lacked accurate information to make the ruling, and in doing so rushed to an incorrect judgement.

Let's all remove our bias and be honest in our world where not only one demeaned group of religious zealots have a monopoly upon "stoning.:

Israel police: A dozen extremist Jews attack woman hanging posters near Jerusalem Men in Beit Shemesh pelted victim with stones and slashed her car's tires

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says about a dozen ultra-Orthodox men in the town of Beit Shemesh surrounded the woman on Tuesday, pelted her with stones and slashed her car's tires.

The thread title was a fully honest honest record of events, and yet played with peoples expectations and prejudice against right-wing Muslims. That some of you found dissapointment reading the thread covered an attack carried out by another right-wing religious group is the cause for the complaint, and I judge the moderator action.

I do not think it to be correct nor even handed to hand out public infractions and editing to the the validated analogy of one side of religious extremism to another, particularly while continuing to permit the bigotry and even eye-for-an-eye justification to kill any member of such religion:

What is good for the goose, is good for the gander.

Muslims are instructed by sharia law to kill non-muslims.

Therefore, I feel quite safe in concluding that you are the one who is incorrect, even "intellectually dishonest", and accordingly disregard your opinion again.
I attempt to post fairly and with substance.

I am present to expose myself to differing political, national, and religious views, and am not looking for a partisan echo chamber.
 
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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
I am a little suprised by that. I don't personally think it is a bad thing to consider the impact of rules on traffic. It costs money to fuel these forums so there does have to be a balance struck somewhere. However, (you can correct me if I'm wrong) P&N may not attract that much traffic on its own in comparison to the rest of the forum so nuking it from orbit may not affect overall traffic that much.

Anyway, my inner dictator doesn't get the desire to poll the membership's wants and needs, especially given the predictable noise it generated. Try to give them what they want and end up being called a fucking prick....but here I am telling you what I want, hah! My advice: Make a command decision and see how things play out, just because you do something today doesn't mean that if turns to crap you are stuck doing it forever.

anandtech is a pretty big site. I dont think he needs to think about traffic in that way.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Page clicks have never, even the tiniest bit whatsoever, been a factor of any kind in decisions on how to moderate the forums.

In all of my many conversations with Anand, and he and I talk regularly and have talked on the phone, quite often for more than an hour at a time and at least once for more than two hours, page clicks/traffic/popularity as a function of moderating philosophy/actions has never once come up, not even "hint, hint" sideways or implied.

So, sorry, but you can put that one to rest.

I am a little suprised by that. I don't personally think it is a bad thing to consider the impact of rules on traffic. It costs money to fuel these forums so there does have to be a balance struck somewhere. However, (you can correct me if I'm wrong) P&N may not attract that much traffic on its own in comparison to the rest of the forum so nuking it from orbit may not affect overall traffic that much.

Doesn't Anandtech make its money by advertising? Yes, it is surprising that page hits wouldn't be a factor.

Don't discount P&N. Looking at the forum homepage, you can see that Off Topic is by far the heart of the forums, but in terms of number of posts P&N is up there with the marketplace forums.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
anandtech is a pretty big site. I dont think he needs to think about traffic in that way.

Maybe he doesn't care about traffic that way, but I don't see why he wouldn't. That's basically what websites are about isn't it? Visitors? Unique visitors and how much time they spend there?

I'm curious about how Anandtech has been trending historically (Alexa only goes back a couple months). Everyone I know who cared about stuff like memory brands has stopped caring as computers have become commodities. Talking about software or operating systems isn't useful anymore as the operating systems have become so stable and the software is mostly on the web. But maybe the number of users internationally continues to grow the site?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Everyone has their bias. Criticising no "stoning" existing for a person citing, but one, news source as having been lynched and "hit on the head by a rock," is what I'd judge to be a fairly petty critique through semantics, and not warranted to be a charge trolling nor baiting. The moderator lacked accurate information to make the ruling, and in doing so rushed to an incorrect judgement.

Stoning has a specific meaning. It's a form of capital punishment that is designed in a way that no one person has responsibility for killing the target. If anyone is guilty of semantics, it's you.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
As a person who admittedly can be prone to over-posting (not necessarily here, though), I assume the point Perknose is trying to make with his running tally and noise vs signal is that some people are simply posting too much. If a theoretical thread has 20 people posting in it and 50% of the posts are from one person (this is entirely possible on P&N) it becomes damn near a journal of that single person and they end up overbearing on the thread so severely that others simply lose interest.

It cannot be hard to figure out noise vs signal. A relevant response to something is signal. A "ghey" or "wow, really?", or "this" is noise (and most of us are noisy at times).

It is very hard to figure out when the only number given is the total number of posts a person makes. Is that signal, is that noise? No ratio is listed either.

Of course it isn't hard to figure out. It is simple to figure out for anyone with even a small amount of intelligence.

Then tell us, using only the info Perknose provided, what the RATIO of signal to noise is for JSt0rm.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Well if you 2 would stop phone sexing maybe it would come up...

Have to admit, that did make me laugh. Well played retort.


Sadly, such things will go away with a strict enforcement of the rules (well played retorts are always fun, even when used against me), but such is life.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,112
32,484
136
Show us how you came up with that data, using the info Perknose supplied. Quote Perknose supplying it.

Perknose posted statistics and then posted his opinion:

...

Read them, these 72 posts, and I believe you will conclude as I have that their collective noise to signal ratio is unacceptably unproductive and non-contributory to any rational, measured discourse.

...
He is asking everyone to read the posts and determine what they think the noise to signal ratio is. I don't need Perknose to define what noise and signal is. I am capable of determining that on my own. Everyone else here can determine whether a post is signal or noise or both for the most part. It doesn't need to be exact. Nobody is going to be banned for posting a single or even a few noise posts. It's only when an overwhelming number of noise posts that come from a single person that we have a problem.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
I don't need Perknose to define what noise and signal is. I am capable of determining that on my own.

Which means the results will be entirely subjective and therefor meaningless. You used information outside of his definitions (of which there are none) to derive results. Let us use Spidy's definitoins instead, eh?

Everyone else here can determine whether a post is signal or noise or both for the most part. It doesn't need to be exact. Nobody is going to be banned for posting a single or even a few noise posts. It's only when an overwhelming number of noise posts that come from a single person that we have a problem.

As determined by who? A completely subjective system is subject to abuse and misuse. How about we let Anarchist decide what is signal and what is noise, eh? Or maybe Spidey...bet you think that is a good system to use then, right?

Without him actually defining the criteria he used to determine what he thinks shows there is a problem, no usable info can be gained from the post, turning into a worthless post.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,395
8,558
126
Don't discount P&N. Looking at the forum homepage, you can see that Off Topic is by far the heart of the forums, but in terms of number of posts P&N is up there with the marketplace forums.

yes but it's all the same 10 people.



Moderation was incorrect to issue a public edit and warning for what was a suitably accurate thread title.

throwing rocks != stoning.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,112
32,484
136
Which means the results will be entirely subjective and therefor meaningless. You used information outside of his definitions (of which there are none) to derive results. Let us use Spidy's definitoins instead, eh?



As determined by who? A completely subjective system is subject to abuse and misuse. How about we let Anarchist decide what is signal and what is noise, eh? Or maybe Spidey...bet you think that is a good system to use then, right?

Without him actually defining the criteria he used to determine what he thinks shows there is a problem, no usable info can be gained from the post, turning into a worthless post.
I think Spidey and even Anarchist can both determine what is signal and what is noise just fine. I think you can, too. A person's opinion about politics doesn't detract their ability to determine if something is on topic or a direct response to someone else's post that is off topic and whether or not the post has any substance.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
76
throwing rocks != stoning.
With all due respect, that is a discounted opinion.

How may you maintain that reasoning in light of the citations in contradicting previous post here and the thread in question?

Moderation is desired in this forum, but contentiously it can go over a reasonable line when unmerited and political/religious/national partisanship is left as the lone justification to censor the validated and topically correct language of a discussion.

That specific was not an issue of bigotry, falsehoods, nor trolling. Apparently it is against forum decorum to describe the action of stoning by Jews, but tolerable for a member to pronounce the hate speech of Muslim dogma to kill non-Muslims and thereby justification for the killing of Muslims in return.

There is a certain societal disconnect in reasonable balance and prejudice.

No one is infallible. Mistakes are made. One just hopes for the integrity to avoid the continuation an already lost argument for reasons of partisanship and posturing.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
It is not Jews vs Muslims.

It is the use of the word "stoning" as in throwing rocks to chase off a person/animal vs tyring to do serious injury/killing as an organized group.

The choice of words as it applys to the situation vs trolling by trying to inflaming under false pretenses.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
It is not Jews vs Muslims.

It is the use of the word "stoning" as in throwing rocks to chase off a person/animal vs tyring to do serious injury/killing as an organized group.

The choice of words as it applys to the situation vs trolling by trying to inflaming under false pretenses.

Well I think i established in the other thread that it isnt that clear cut.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
quote=Whiskey16;32908098]Let's all remove our bias and be honest in our world where not only one demeaned group of religious zealots have a monopoly upon "stoning.:



Israel police: A dozen extremist Jews attack woman hanging posters near Jerusalem Men in Beit Shemesh pelted victim with stones and slashed her car's tires

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says about a dozen ultra-Orthodox men in the town of Beit Shemesh surrounded the woman on Tuesday, pelted her with stones and slashed her car's tires.

The thread title was a fully honest honest record of events, and yet played with peoples expectations and prejudice against right-wing Muslims. That some of you found dissapointment reading the thread covered an attack carried out by another right-wing religious group is the cause for the complaint, and I judge the moderator action.

Using the article that SandEagles thread was based on -- let me refresh your mind --

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...ttacked-by-ultra-orthodox-extremists-1.409065

A woman was attacked in her car in Beit Shemesh Tuesday by ultra-Orthodox extremists - the latest in a series of incidents apparently sparked by what members of the town's Haredi community view as immodest dress.

A crowd of ultra-Orthodox men jumped on 27-year-old Natali Mashiah's car in the Haredi Ramat Beit Shemet Bet neighborhood, she said. Members of the crowd smashed her car windows and punctured her four tires before spilling bleach on the inside of her car, said the Beit Shemesh resident, adding that she believed the men were going to set her on fire. As she fled the car, she said she was hit on the head by a rock thrown from very close range.

Police arrested three suspects when they arrived on the scene, and searched the area for other suspects. Although a crowd was said to have gathered during the attack, no one reportedly came to Mashiah's assistance.

The incident follows the highly publicized case of 8-year-old Na'ama Margolese last month, who was reportedly spat at for her supposedly insufficiently modest dress despite the fact that she comes from a religious family.

In a separate incident about a week ago, a third-grade American immigrant boy was attacked in Beit Shemesh by a group of young Haredim as he walked home from school.

The incident occurred at about 1 P.M. when Mashiah came to the neighborhood for her work, in order to post advertisements. Mashiah parked her car and set out to hang the ads. "All of a sudden a man came up to me and called me a shikse [a derogatory term for a non-Jewish woman] and a slut," she said, and told her to leave.

Mashiah said she then called the police, who told her to remain there until a police cruiser came, she recounted. She said she was then immediately approached from several directions by about 10 ultra-Orthodox men carrying rocks and bottles. She ran to her car, she said, but before she could start the engine, they jumped on her car and started pounding on it.

She said she begged them to stop and promised to leave the area. She also called her brother, Omri, a company commander in the Givati Brigade who was at the family home at the time.

She said before help arrived members of the crowd smashed her car windows and punctured the tires, before someone spilled bleach on her. "I thought, this was it, this is the end, I am going to die," she said, adding, "The look in their eyes reminded me of the lynching in Ramallah," an apparent reference to a 2000 lynching by two Israeli reserve soldiers by a group of Palestinians in the West Bank city of Ramallah. "I yelled to them, 'But I'm Jewish,'" she said. She said at that point one of the assailants leaned into the car and took the car keys.

Mashiah said she managed to get out of the car and started to flee the scene when she was hit on the head by a rock. She ran to a nearby building with members of the crowd in pursuit, but said that at that point the police cruiser arrived. "When they saw the lights of the police car, they ran away," she said.

At about the same time, Mashiah said, her brother arrived by cab. He said he was aware of what was happening before he got to the scene because he had been in constant contact with his sister from her cell phone. "I heard her screaming," he said. "I heard the sound of the smashing [windows]."
************************************

Based on the article that SandEagle based his thread title on -- posted above ^^^^^
Please show me where it says the were stoning or even throwing stones??? Please.....
You can`t!!!
The mod was perfectly correct in changing the thread title!!!!
You owe the mod an apology -- the mod was absolutely 100% correct!!

Had the thread that you linked to in your thread been used by the OP -- things would have been different -- I am very sure!!

Now man up and apologize in public -- since your accusation was a public accusation!!
 
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Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
76
The choice of words as it applys to the situation vs trolling by trying to inflaming under false pretenses.
That is your opinion.

Why have two posters already ignored clear and concise counter arguments to their following positions?

For questionable, and I charge ideological, reasoning, you choose to retain that cemented point of Jews not having enacted a stoning, despite my presentation of a Jewish newspaper headlining with the term of 'stoning' to this very same incident.

I propose a simple exercise in objectivity:

A google search of "Beit Shemesh stoning"
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,395
8,558
126
Please show me where it says the were stoning or even throwing stones??? Please.....

As she fled the car, she said she was hit on the head by a rock thrown from very close range.
so who owes whom an apology?


and, again, stoning is a method of execution. if a protester is throwing rocks at police it's not a stoning.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
I think Spidey and even Anarchist can both determine what is signal and what is noise just fine. I think you can, too. A person's opinion about politics doesn't detract their ability to determine if something is on topic or a direct response to someone else's post that is off topic and whether or not the post has any substance.

Sure it does, when opinion is stated as fact, it needs to be called out as such. This was discussed previously with the price of gasoline.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Which means the results will be entirely subjective and therefor meaningless. You used information outside of his definitions (of which there are none) to derive results. Let us use Spidy's definitoins instead, eh?



As determined by who? A completely subjective system is subject to abuse and misuse. How about we let Anarchist decide what is signal and what is noise, eh? Or maybe Spidey...bet you think that is a good system to use then, right?

Without him actually defining the criteria he used to determine what he thinks shows there is a problem, no usable info can be gained from the post, turning into a worthless post.
You really don't get it, do you? First, subjective and meaningless are not the same thing at all. While subjectivity may be unacceptable in precise disciplines like Mathematics, it is an inevitable factor in almost everything else ... including human interaction. As long as human moderators are moderating human discussions, subjectivity is a given. It's something all socially well-adjusted people learn to live with as part of our daily lives.

Second, it is Anandtech moderators who will make those subjective decisions about what is signal and what is noise. That's their role here. This isn't your forum or my forum or Spidey's forum. It's Anand's forum, and he has delegated this responsibility to his moderators. Don't like it? Get your refund and go somewhere else. Start your own forum where you can make the rules, or where you can delegate that responsibility to Anarchist or Spidey if you want them to decide. The fact of the matter is as long as you are a guest here, you're going to have to learn to accept the decisions of the moderators who run the place.