MMO Advancement Archetypes

[pandemonium]

I'm creating this poll to see how many other gamers out there are tired of the quest driven archetype system for MMOs (WoW clones). It seems like every MMO that has released in the last ~5 years has been based primarily on quest advancement and they all have failed to retain their initial hype (IMHO, partly due to this, albeit several other factors as well).

Due to some confusion in the terminology, quest-driven (Themepark; in the context of this poll) is defining a game that prioritizes your character's progression by way of quest hubs and quest lines. While that may not be the only option in a quest-driven game to advance your character, its certainly the game designers primary intention for character progression. Self-driven design is also referred to as Sandbox.

The purpose here is to determine if there's a majority of other gamers that are tired of this copy-cat system and to see if there's a market available for self-challenging advancement systems (IE: find a good camp to grind more difficult monsters and building a party for it).

If you're into the quest-driven system, that's fine. I'm not knocking your preferences of how an MMO challenges you and not looking to argue against or for. I'm just trying to learn if I'm alone here, or if there's actually a market out there for people that prefer an "unguided" advancement system.

Personally, I'd like to see skill open based games (no locked skill trees or classes) as a big win, and quests being an optional guideline for exploring the world (not the primary function for character growth/experience gains).

Thanks for your vote and feel free to comment as to where you think the next stage of MMO gaming can lead. ^_^

Alternatively, you may visit Chiropteran's similar thread in regards to his Dream Game (which covers a lot of what is being discussed here).

Edit: I realize how this poll may appear, and to be absolutely clear, I do NOT work for a game design company. This is PURELY a burning question I've been curious about for a while now.

 

[Craig234]

MMO's are funny. When they've just been more open world - do what you like - people get bored.

People don't kill 100 or 1000 or more of that mob and enjoy it usually, but make it a quest, and they do it.

Achievments, same thing. So those elements do add to people playing the game, using the content more.

Not everyone enjoys that, it sounds like you don't. Of course, the Asian MMO's have a reputation for being far more grindy than most American gamers can stand.

It's not that easy to make a game designed to keep people paying to play for years, people burn through expensive content.

Compare it to a movie - two hours for millions in budget, not interactive, just film.

What you describe though sounds specifically against quests, considering you list grinding as the alternative you like. Quests tend to have more 'story'.

 

[GaiaHunter]

There is a WoW market.
And then there is a MMORPG market.

Games that went after the WoW market failed because that market wants to play WoW.

Any game that becomes a second job will be a niche and wont surpass 500K players if it has a sub.

I'll be playing GW2, which has an interesting explorable world where "quests" come to you, skilled combat and playing with other people is natural and painless.

 

[Arkadrel]

I f**king HATE the quest system.

Go kill 10 of these, then run back and forth and back and forth, and kill 10 something else right next to same spot ect.

FFXI had very few "missions" but they where tough as all hell and memorable.
Rest of the time, the only way to level up was to grind monsters in a group.

I much prefer the monster grind in group > solo questing.

No more lame quests is alright by me.
Too many solo questing MMORPGs, all just takeing off of WoW.
Experiance should come from battles, not from handing in 10 teeth of X monster.

Also PVP MMORPGs are a dime a dosen, and all end up sucking anyways.
Would be nice to see a game focused on group PVE, must be someone out there competent enough to make one.

 

[diesbudt]

MMO's are funny. When they've just been more open world - do what you like - people get bored.

People don't kill 100 or 1000 or more of that mob and enjoy it usually, but make it a quest, and they do it.

Achievments, same thing. So those elements do add to people playing the game, using the content more.

Not everyone enjoys that, it sounds like you don't. Of course, the Asian MMO's have a reputation for being far more grindy than most American gamers can stand.

It's not that easy to make a game designed to keep people paying to play for years, people burn through expensive content.

Compare it to a movie - two hours for millions in budget, not interactive, just film.

What you describe though sounds specifically against quests, considering you list grinding as the alternative you like. Quests tend to have more 'story'.

This. MMOs require goals, and some structure/guidelines for their stories. Any thing that is too open and people will get bored fast because there is no advancement in the game and no real accomplishment feeling. Especially since everything is unlocked. No reason to level, no reason to explore. What fun is that?

 

[diesbudt]

There is a WoW market.
And then there is a MMORPG market.

Games that went after the WoW market failed because that market wants to play WoW.

Any game that becomes a second job will be a niche and wont surpass 500K players if it has a sub.

I'll be playing GW2, which has an interesting explorable world where "quests" come to you, skilled combat and playing with other people is natural and painless.

Bingo. And many other simple advancements other games didn't use that makes the game seem better. Like the instant mail from your location. Never need a mail box. Map that tracks your last 500 steps or w/e. Simple things like that too are cool.

Even so, the quest system cannot be fully removed or the game would never be interesting beyond the hype.

 

[SS Trooper]

I am against MMO's with subs now because of the horrible track record I've had with them.

FFXI - One of the best games I have ever played, so hard and so time consuming made downing bosses or unlocking classes worthwhile and impressive. I never reached max level, but I'd assume a lot of people didn't.

WoW - There's a reason why this game was so popular. They did it right, a great backstory with enough interesting quest lines and enough zones so you could have a unique leveling experience with several classes. Constant end game upgrades and an almost decent pvp scene. I will not be getting Panda's because its freaking Panda's.

Warhammer - Balance was not there and leveling was boring. I played a non tank melee character with no stealth. I could not get past the zerg lines to get a single attack off. I quit before max level.

Rift - A nice spin on PVE but all in all it felt clunky compared to WoW. Nothing worth while to do at end game quickly killed the game for me.

FFXIV (I think the number is right) - I didn't own a PC capable of playing this beast at launch, and with all the horrible reviews I never bothered with it. I have recently talked about getting into it since Diablo 3 does not have the staying power of D2.

Star Wars Kotor - I didn't believe this game had anything new to offer. My friends quit after 1 month, I never tried.

 

[diesbudt]

I am against MMO's with subs now because of the horrible track record I've had with them.

FFXI - One of the best games I have ever played, so hard and so time consuming made downing bosses or unlocking classes worthwhile and impressive. I never reached max level, but I'd assume a lot of people didn't.

WoW - There's a reason why this game was so popular. They did it right, a great backstory with enough interesting quest lines and enough zones so you could have a unique leveling experience with several classes. Constant end game upgrades and an almost decent pvp scene. I will not be getting Panda's because its freaking Panda's.

Warhammer - Balance was not there and leveling was boring. I played a non tank melee character with no stealth. I could not get past the zerg lines to get a single attack off. I quit before max level.

Rift - A nice spin on PVE but all in all it felt clunky compared to WoW. Nothing worth while to do at end game quickly killed the game for me.

FFXIV (I think the number is right) - I didn't own a PC capable of playing this beast at launch, and with all the horrible reviews I never bothered with it. I have recently talked about getting into it since Diablo 3 does not have the staying power of D2.

Star Wars Kotor - I didn't believe this game had anything new to offer. My friends quit after 1 month, I never tried.

That is a pretty silly reason to not get the game. There are legit reasons to not to play WoW, but the bolded part alone is silly. Especially since the panda race has been in the warcraft lore much longer than the Blue aliens from space.

 

[Kristijonas]

I didn't vote because I play Ultima Online and I don't know if it's quest-driven or not.

 

[Red Storm]

Quests are just one form of objective. Every single game is objective based, even if that objective is simply having fun.

 

[Grooveriding]

Players are sick of the quest-driven style of MMOs. WoW is largely to blame as they ram that down your throat and have driven it into the ground. The game continues to bleed subs. Activision/Blizzard lost over 1,000,000 World of Warcraft subscribers in the past three months.

Only a truly innovative MMO is going to be able to shake up the market. It will also take an innovative developer with some real talent at hand to manage it.

I'd like to see a new MMO arrive that breaks the mould, but any developer will be scared to truly break out of it because of the investment required. I do think they are all starting to realize that the current mould for making an MMO is no longer sustainable though.

Guild Wars 2 is the closest to something different enough, yet the same to actually achieve success. It's also following the new business model of not requiring a subscription fee. The idea of a subscription is definitely going the way of the dodo.

 

[diesbudt]

Quests are just one form of objective. Every single game is objective based, even if that objective is simply having fun.

An objective has to hold the players attention. Just "being fun" is a short term attention grab. A reward based system in which a player performs X objective psycologically gets one to enjoy something more and want to keep doing it because of said reward.

And Open/just for fun world will fall on its back in just a few months.

Quests are the most used objective because it takes 0 explaining what a quest is and they can range from easy to impossible.

 

[diesbudt]

Players are sick of the quest-driven style of MMOs. WoW is largely to blame as they ram that down your throat and have driven it into the ground. The game continues to bleed subs. Activision/Blizzard lost over 1,000,000 World of Warcraft subscribers in the past three months.

Only a truly innovative MMO is going to be able to shake up the market. It will also take an innovative developer with some real talent at hand to manage it.

I'd like to see a new MMO arrive that breaks the mould, but any developer will be scared to truly break out of it because of the investment required. I do think they are all starting to realize that the current mould for making an MMO is no longer sustainable though.

Guild Wars 2 is the closest to something different enough, yet the same to actually achieve success. It's also following the new business model of not requiring a subscription fee. The idea of a subscription is definitely going the way of the dodo.

A) the mould needs a tweak. Not a break. A break would mean it is no longer an MMO, as MMOs have restrictions on what they will/will not do as to get many people playing. And since what is fun is opinion to each person their own, no one can define an amazing new style of MMO that would hold the attention of people. And yes the current mould is losing sustainability. But that is because of 2 very easy to understand reasons.

1] They have gotten too easy/too fast to hit max level. Early MMOS and WoWs first 2+ years getting to max level was a long process yet a huge achievement on itself. Then you still had all the lateral character improvement of dungeons, raids, and such which were very difficult. However, because they have started getting too easy, going back to such difficulty would have a serious backlash on the players playing it. So it would require a new MMO that comes in with difficulty and publicly saying it will be hard.

2] The genre as a whole is getting old. This genre isn't like an FPS where you can rehash the same game for decades and still get the numbers of people buying it (Looking at you Call of Duty), but since this genre is not an easy one to innovate as you have to target millions of people that will enjoy it, along with technology limitations and such.

B) GW2 is probably the biggest leap we will see in mould breaking for MMOs. There isn't much room left of ideas to try that will have a good chance to be successful and accepted by MMO players, especially of the ADD/ADHD CoD generation now getting big into those games. Guild Wars 1 was also a pay once and your done MMO (no sub fee). So this isn't exactly new especially to Arenanet.

 

[brandonb]

I loved original Everquest and Asheron's Call. It was more open world.

For example: Asheron's call has quests. But every time you do the quest, you gain a level or so from the completion of the quest. To top it off, it might take 4 hours to complete it. So, there is a larger time investment and a bigger payoff, and there aren't as many quests.

Typical WoW gameplay (and its clones) gets to the point where its the boy who cried wolf. I honestly don't care if every NPC has a quest to go kill, find, gather, etc some thing. It's like we live in a village of idiots who can't do anything. I don't care about their plight, and stop reading any text by level 5.

I like the open world with larger quests which take effort to finish. Quests should be a few hours long. They are quests. Not talk to NPC, walk for 30 seconds in a certain direction kill 10 mobs which take about 3 minutes and return. Most quests in modern games can be gained, and finished within a 5 minute time window. That's not a quest.

I also do not like linear chain quests. Do this hub and get a quest to talk to a guy at a different hub which unlocks a bunch of new missions. Just le me wander and go where I please and let me do which quests sound interesting. Make them take effort/time to finish, and when I finish them, make it worth while.

 

[diesbudt]

I loved original Everquest and Asheron's Call. It was more open world.

For example: Asheron's call has quests. But every time you do the quest, you gain a level or so from the completion of the quest. To top it off, it might take 4 hours to complete it. So, there is a larger time investment and a bigger payoff, and there aren't as many quests.

Typical WoW gameplay (and its clones) gets to the point where its the boy who cried wolf. I honestly don't care if every NPC has a quest to go kill, find, gather, etc some thing. It's like we live in a village of idiots who can't do anything. I don't care about their plight, and stop reading any text by level 5.

I like the open world with larger quests which take effort to finish. Quests should be a few hours long. They are quests. Not talk to NPC, walk for 30 seconds in a certain direction kill 10 mobs which take about 3 minutes and return. Most quests in modern games can be gained, and finished within a 5 minute time window. That's not a quest.

I also do not like linear chain quests. Do this hub and get a quest to talk to a guy at a different hub which unlocks a bunch of new missions. Just le me wander and go where I please and let me do which quests sound interesting. Make them take effort/time to finish, and when I finish them, make it worth while.

Yes, but AC and EQ were Monster driven games in which all you did was kill things, over and over and over for hours upon hours at end getting maybe a level or 2. (I know I played AC, even retried it few weeks ago) However that style of MMO is boring to too many people and wouldn't last, because all it is is killing things. No real thinking involved, no need to go anywhere but where people tell you where the next best area is (and as a level 27 because of magic I was killing level 125 monsters).

Also in this generation, long quests/objectives will not last. People like shorter spurts when playing a game. Like 1-1.5 hours then log off and play later.

1) Also if the world is too big with too little quests, it will feel empty and boring with not doing anything besides exploring and killing.

2) If the world is too small with too many quests, it is just like you said with WoW.

3) If it is a big world with lots of quests, it is much like Skyrim, in that it is still linear but sometimes you may have to go miles and miles to the objective.

4) If it is a small world with little amount of quests, game will end and be finished too easily that after 1-2 months people would quit.

So basically it is pick your poison type deal.

1) Is the first generation of MMOs, and died out because things took way too long and just didnt get enough reward vs trouble compared to later MMOs

2) This one gives a lot of rewards, even though usually small, keeping you psycologically pleased "accomplishing" objectives. However, it can become feeling like a tedious job doing nothing but quests over and over.

3) Skyrim, aka better single player games, Bad MMO

4) A good single player game type for short games/Handheld portables. Bad MMO.

 

[darkewaffle]

The devil is in the details, I love FFXI but it's not because it's a "grind" or "not quest based" but because the party gameplay mechanics are so unique and there are so many different jobs and ways to make their abilities work together, it's really engaging.

On the other hand, Lineage 2 and Ragnarok Online are just as grindy, but with much simpler gameplay so I don't feel as though it works in anything more than small doses.

It's all a matter of execution; even if the quests are simple, dressing them up goes a long way. I think SWTOR did that very well; sure your quest may still be to "Destroy 8 droids", but it's presentation gives it grander implications; you're not just killing to kill, but rather in order to recover their memory chips for clues to track down lost Rakata technology on Tattooine, that kind of thing.

I think the key to success whether a game is quest based or grind based or something else altogether is to build up that idea to such an extent that when the player is 'taking part in it' that it gives him/her reason to 'forget' it or look past it, something needs to be there to draw the player in, whether it's engaging gameplay, lore, teamplay, something.

 

[Genx87]

The funny thing is one of the original MMOs was a skill based game(Ultima Online). And it was a true sandbox. I wonder if we will eventually come full circle at some point in the future? It is clear the WoW clones have never lived up to expectations. But are the masses willing to play in a sandbox as well?

There are niche games out there that may work for you. EVE Online is a popular game that is skills based and a sandbox.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Soo...what everyone is saying is they want Eve in hack n slash form.

 

[pontifex]

you would rather grind 1 group of mobs than quest?

i agree that i hate questing where you have to go back and forth between the same 2 areas, but i'd much rather do that than grind.

 

[SS Trooper]

That is a pretty silly reason to not get the game. There are legit reasons to not to play WoW, but the bolded part alone is silly. Especially since the panda race has been in the warcraft lore much longer than the Blue aliens from space.

It was definately meant to be silly. I played the game way to long and I am tired of it. I have yet to see anything interesting coming from the next exp that makes me want to play again. The real thing that killed the game for me is guilds and that they are required to do end game. Wow seems to bring out the greed in people. I can't find a group of non dbags to play with. But thats getting off track...

For pve I don't really have any great ideas. I think the fights they put in mmo's are fun and diffcult, but the problem is that once you beat a boss for the 5th time it loses its fun. Randomizing encounters or bosses would be a welcomed additional to MMO pve.

Pvp gets gear dependant too quickly. The only class I find fun to pvp is a stealther so I can get in and out alive.

Subs are a major knock to a game for me now. I hate paying retail for a game and then owning nothing should I choose to cancel my sub down the road.

 

[Hacp]

The quest based system doesn't have enough tangible rewards.

 

[diesbudt]

It was definately meant to be silly. I played the game way to long and I am tired of it. I have yet to see anything interesting coming from the next exp that makes me want to play again. The real thing that killed the game for me is guilds and that they are required to do end game. Wow seems to bring out the greed in people. I can't find a group of non dbags to play with. But thats getting off track...

For pve I don't really have any great ideas. I think the fights they put in mmo's are fun and diffcult, but the problem is that once you beat a boss for the 5th time it loses its fun. Randomizing encounters or bosses would be a welcomed additional to MMO pve.

Pvp gets gear dependant too quickly. The only class I find fun to pvp is a stealther so I can get in and out alive.

Subs are a major knock to a game for me now. I hate paying retail for a game and then owning nothing should I choose to cancel my sub down the road.

See, many other legit reason yo uare tired of wow.

The pandas were in warcraft 3 for a bit, and blizzard intended on bringing them in WoW much sooner then they are now. And are ment to be no more a joke than gnomes or cows.

BUt like i said, your legit reasons are great reasons are some of the primary reasons MMO as a genre is slowly losing its grasp on the market. Killing something the umpteenth time can get boring. Only way to make it better is harden it up each kill until something great, or make it random. Most fun I have in WoW is social aspects, guild/random groups and making jokes to confuse people mid Looking for raid.

 

[diesbudt]

The quest based system doesn't have enough tangible rewards.

Versus what other system?

 

[Arkadrel]

Soo...what everyone is saying is they want Eve in hack n slash form.

Gods no....

1) do not want hack n slash game.
*If blizzard cant even get diablo III right, then my view on hack n slash = dead.

also hack n slash in a MMORPG = f*cktarded.


2) Eve being a sand box, is its only grace, it has no endgame.
All it really has is a conquest system, where there are no rules, might makes right type.
Where people can team up, take controll of a area of space, and choose weather they bully others as pirates ect.

When factions get to big, others go into war, to regain lost area's of space, for the resources there.

^ decent enough if you like that type, pvp with no rules.
(also some ships can take "months real time" to build, and be lost in a 30min incounter with a band of pirates ect)
Your loss, you got blown up, have fun playing a miner getting minerals for the next month, to pay for the building of a new ship.


--------------------------------------------- what I want:

In a MMORPG is for missions/quests to mean something.
Mission shouldnt be small wall of text, go collect 10 teeth off of X monster, get XP reward, then get new quest ect.

Missions/Questlines should be to unlock new classes ingame, new abilities.
They should be really hard, so their rewarding when youve gotten the new stuff.

The same with the storyline. There needs to be mission based story line that progresses the game, it needs to be to difficult to solo, so your "ecuraged" to team up with others and progress in the story of the world you play in.


The best way to do this, is to get rid of the quest system in MMORPGs, and just let people grind exp spots killing monsters in groups ect.

And then when there is a quest make it really rewarding (make them rare and far apart leveling wise, so the "experiance" isnt lost to mindless repetition of other quests). I think leveling "check" points at X level, with new level caps to unlock like in FFXI where you had to fight Maat and prove your worth to get new level caps was fun.

I think the developers of MMORPGs should give FFXI a good look as a system that works really well. Then make a Copy *caugh caugh* thats FFXI just with new world, better graphics ect. Then look at everything they changed in FFXIV, and try your best not to do that.

 

[crownjules]

Player driven games, like Eve and Planetside, will become more popular as people catch on. It is far more addictive when you see that your actions have a meaningful impact on the game world then it is to see thousands of people running the exact same quest. Questing is simply a relic of singleplayer RPGs. So much could be done to create a player driven MMO if a dev just had the vision and courage to do so.