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Missouri Police Officer guns down unarmed 18 year old

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Orignal Earl said:
In Canada, kids playing guns is still fine. It's the weird adult male loner types you have to keep an eye on
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If I and the kids I grew up with were kids today and behaved the way we did 'back in the day' (for context, I'm in my early 60's) with modern American police around, I suspect that few of us would have seen our 18th birthday.
 
bshole said:
So the police knew that his mother and boyfriend were bad people that didn't care about the kid so that makes the killing ok? Not exactly sure why that information makes the killing legit in your eyes but then again I am not a conservative and have no chance of ever wrapping my mind around their logic.
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Try actually reading the post that I quoted, and replied to before replying to me. Read, comprehend, then reply. Apparently that is too hard for you to do.
 
Victorian Gray said:
If I and the kids I grew up with were kids today and behaved the way we did 'back in the day' (for context, I'm in my early 60's) with modern American police around, I suspect that few of us would have seen our 18th birthday.
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When I was around 16, I had a party at the house when the parents were away for the weekend
My little brother had a toy shotgun that made a loud bang after you gave it a pump
I was messing around with it when the RCMP pulled up outside to tell us to keep it quiet.
I walked out with gun in hand, let a shot ring out and told the boys to come inside.
Not thinking at all that they would think it was real
RC didn't even flinch, laughed, and told me to make sure and keep the peace.
 
Ackmed said:
The dispatcher didn't tell them that he had a gun. The guy didn't reach for a toy gun that looked 100% real from that distance. But good try.
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What if the kid was playing with a camera and went to pull it out, should the officer still have shot the kid?
 
Orignal Earl said:
When I was around 16, I had a party at the house when the parents were away for the weekend
My little brother had a toy shotgun that made a loud bang after you gave it a pump
I was messing around with it when the RCMP pulled up outside to tell us to keep it quiet.
I walked out with gun in hand, let a shot ring out and told the boys to come inside.
Not thinking at all that they would think it was real
RC didn't even flinch, laughed, and told me to make sure and keep the peace.
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Sounds familiar. In my case I grew up in St Vital (district in S. Winnipeg) and St. Boniface so we dealt with city police but my experiences with them were pretty much like the one you describe.

Things got a bit less pleasant occasionally in the late 60's and I was one of those 'longhairs' but for the most part all I had to worry about then was getting my skull bashed in by the local greasers.
 
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The Merg said:
So how long should they wait to determine if the gun was real or not? A gun can be drawn and fired in less than 2 seconds.

- Merg
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The point isn't how long they should wait, the point is that they should never have put themselves into the situation at knife range, where they could easily die by hesitating a second.

cabri said:
You are the one that is implying that the police should wait around to see what a person's intentions are.

Bad people implementing intentions when they have a chance can cost lives.

If that happens; people are going to be screaming that the LEO should have reacted quicker to prevent unneeded loss of life.
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Agreed, but in this case there was no one there in immediate danger. The kid's just sitting there with no one to grab hostage or shoot. At that point it's not a life or death situation; why roll up and make it one?

Even assuming they did so by accident, why not shelter behind the car instead of making it a kill or be killed situation?

Fern said:
Yeah, seemed like a stupid way to respond to me.

Let's put aside for a moment that it was a 12 yr old with a air pistol (i.e., not a real gun).

I'd like to know from anybody here with knowledge of police procedures if they did it right. Seems to me rolling right up on criminal with a gun in hand is a good way to get killed. You could be dead before you managed to open the car door.

IMO, and I've never been in LE, that maneuver was exactly the right thing to do if you wanted to make the situation as explosive and dangerous as possible while allowing for only split second decisions.

Fern
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Exactly. And I tend to agree that the kid might have wanted only to drop or hand over the gun (which no one could be expected to know wasn't real at the time.) We all know that's a stupid reaction, but it's not an unreasonable action for a twelve year old suddenly in very hot water.
 
werepossum said:
The point isn't how long they should wait, the point is that they should never have put themselves into the situation at knife range, where they could easily die by hesitating a second.
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Correct. They should not have been in that position, but they ended up there. We still don't know why that is. As I mentioned above, it could have been a lapse in judgement, or they didn't see him there at first, or there were people off camera that we don't know about. But even with them in that situation, the courts have said that we can't use hindsight to judge the justification of the shooting. Would it have happened if they hadn't rolled right up on him? I can say with most certainty that it would not have, but we can't use that thinking when determining if the shooting was justified.

werepossum said:
Agreed, but in this case there was no one there in immediate danger. The kid's just sitting there with no one to grab hostage or shoot. At that point it's not a life or death situation; why roll up and make it one?

Even assuming they did so by accident, why not shelter behind the car instead of making it a kill or be killed situation?
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The officer in the passenger seat had no time to try to shelter behind the car. As soon as they pulled up the kid started lifting his jacket.

werepossum said:
Exactly. And I tend to agree that the kid might have wanted only to drop or hand over the gun (which no one could be expected to know wasn't real at the time.) We all know that's a stupid reaction, but it's not an unreasonable action for a twelve year old suddenly in very hot water.
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Very true. However, there is no way for the officer to know that. There's a call of someone waving around a gun and when they pull up, a person lifts their jacket exposing a gun, and starts reaching for it.

- Merg
 
Ackmed said:
The dispatcher didn't tell them that he had a gun. The guy didn't reach for a toy gun that looked 100% real from that distance. But good try.
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I'm curious, did you actually read the article? Because he was holding and waving it around. The link to the local news article clearly states he was holding it. and it was a real rifle, not a toy like the kids.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/dash_cam_footage_from_open_car.html

On May 4, Kalamazoo Department of Public Safety officers responded to multiple reports of a man, possibly intoxicated, carrying a rifle along East Cork Street in the city's Milwood neighborhood. Joseph Houseman, 63, was eventually persuaded to hand over the gun, which was returned to him the next day. Police considered but ultimately decided against seeking a misdemeanor charge of brandishing a firearm.
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And, even better, they didn't charge him with anything. Amazing. White guy waving a gun around around gets off with NOTHING, black kid with air gun executed in 2sec. Black man in Walmart with BB gun executed in 2sec.

So isn't waving a real weapon worse then possibly reaching for an air gun?

Perhaps our cop apologist Merg can explain why a white man, brandishing a real weapon, around other people no less, wasn't gunned down within 2 sec? Why did the cop not shoot him when the man refused to put the gun down?

Why did they spend 40 minutes talking to the man, and not shooting him? I mean, Merg and others are talking about the need to "protect" people from that evil kid with a air gun, having to kill him right away because he was a threat to innocent people. What about all those innocent people around this guy?

Why didn't the cops roll up to within 2 feet of him, tell him to drop it, and not shoot him immediately?

So I guy with a rifle is allowed to wave it around for up to 40minutes without being killed? He was told to drop it, and refused. ISn't that refusing a cops order? So they can arrest him? Shoot him? Right?

But he was white, so no shots fired, not even arrested. While all the black people are in caskets. Yeah, no problems here.
 
Additional grand jury information released Monday night in the death of Michael Brown is consistent with data that had previously been made available in the case, and consistent with testimony that was released after the decision was announced that Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson would not be indicted..........


.....Also Brown's blood was found on both sides of both his hands, and on the inside of Wilson's vehicle's door, which would be consistent with Wilson's testimony that a struggle between the two ensued at the vehicle, resulting in the officer discharging his firearm.
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http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ferguson-grand-jury-documents-support-earlier-data/


What? And I thought this "gentle giant" was about to start college? How could his blood was inside the cop's car? 😀
 
GarfieldtheCat said:
I'm curious, did you actually read the article? Because he was holding and waving it around. The link to the local news article clearly states he was holding it. and it was a real rifle, not a toy like the kids.



http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/dash_cam_footage_from_open_car.html







And, even better, they didn't charge him with anything. Amazing. White guy waving a gun around around gets off with NOTHING, black kid with air gun executed in 2sec. Black man in Walmart with BB gun executed in 2sec.



So isn't waving a real weapon worse then possibly reaching for an air gun?



Perhaps our cop apologist Merg can explain why a white man, brandishing a real weapon, around other people no less, wasn't gunned down within 2 sec? Why did the cop not shoot him when the man refused to put the gun down?



Why did they spend 40 minutes talking to the man, and not shooting him? I mean, Merg and others are talking about the need to "protect" people from that evil kid with a air gun, having to kill him right away because he was a threat to innocent people. What about all those innocent people around this guy?



Why didn't the cops roll up to within 2 feet of him, tell him to drop it, and not shoot him immediately?



So I guy with a rifle is allowed to wave it around for up to 40minutes without being killed? He was told to drop it, and refused. ISn't that refusing a cops order? So they can arrest him? Shoot him? Right?



But he was white, so no shots fired, not even arrested. While all the black people are in caskets. Yeah, no problems here.
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Guess if your skin is white they give you the benefit of the doubt but once your skin color reaches a certain shade then these thug pigs jump into Rambo mode.
 
Svnla said:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ferguson-grand-jury-documents-support-earlier-data/


What? And I thought this "gentle giant" was about to start college? How could his blood was inside the cop's car? 😀
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I don't think anybody still disagrees that there was a fight at the SUV where Brown was shot, although Shane et al deny that we can know who started it. (Which is true - Wilson might have grabbed Brown.) Doesn't matter one way or another; a cop has every right to grab you to detain you if he suspects you have just committed a crime, and you don't gain the reciprocal right to punch him.

The Merg said:
Correct. They should not have been in that position, but they ended up there. We still don't know why that is. As I mentioned above, it could have been a lapse in judgement, or they didn't see him there at first, or there were people off camera that we don't know about. But even with them in that situation, the courts have said that we can't use hindsight to judge the justification of the shooting. Would it have happened if they hadn't rolled right up on him? I can say with most certainty that it would not have, but we can't use that thinking when determining if the shooting was justified.

The officer in the passenger seat had no time to try to shelter behind the car. As soon as they pulled up the kid started lifting his jacket.

Very true. However, there is no way for the officer to know that. There's a call of someone waving around a gun and when they pull up, a person lifts their jacket exposing a gun, and starts reaching for it.

- Merg
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But if we cannot use the standard of what a reasonable person would do, the cops gain the right to shoot pretty much anyone for pretty much any reason.
 
DCal430 said:
Looks like the feds are building a case and will be filing charges against st Wilson soon.
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Which will result in an acquittal, as anyone with a brain knows. Total waste of time, except it might appease the black community if they at least try the case.
 
werepossum said:
I don't think anybody still disagrees that there was a fight at the SUV where Brown was shot, although Shane et al deny that we can know who started it. (Which is true - Wilson might have grabbed Brown.) Doesn't matter one way or another; a cop has every right to grab you to detain you if he suspects you have just committed a crime, and you don't gain the reciprocal right to punch him.
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There are still signs and chants of "Hands up, don't shoot" at numerous protests that are going on right now. There are still plenty of idiots that believe Brown was truly a gentle giant did nothing wrong on that day, Wilson shot Brown in cold blood just because of his skin color and nothing else.
 
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Svnla said:
There are still signs and chants of "Hands up, don't shoot" at numerous protests that are going on right now. There are still plenty of idiots that believe Wilson shot Brown in cold blood just because of his skin color and nothing else.
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That's the true damage of misinformation and/or propaganda. Inciting a riot on false pretenses.
 
Svnla said:
There are still signs and chants of "Hands up, don't shoot" at numerous protests that are going on right now. There are still plenty of idiots that believe Brown was truly a gentle giant did nothing wrong on that day, Wilson shot Brown in cold blood just because of his skin color and nothing else.
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Good point. I was thinking about here, but the Congressional Black Caucus even did it on the House floor.
 
Ah aha! Anyone reading about witness #40? This is the witness hannity keeps trotting out and quoting, "he then put his head down like a football player and charged".

I'll save the good stuff till others chime in😉
 
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