Missouri Police Officer guns down unarmed 18 year old

[Blanky]

Were,

There have been scapegoats throughout history. Jesus was crucified even though Pilate openly acknowledged he was innocent. Pilate did it to keep the peace.

A bone of some kind must be thrown to the aggrieved parties in Ferguson or there is a very good chance of explosive, expensive and deadly violence. Hopefully I am exaggerating the threat (which I have a tendency to do) but I fear that I am not.

My thoughts are not so much controversial as pragmatic. Of course they could open a pandora's box of mob justice which would be awful as well. I am just glad I don't have to deal with this tar baby.

I love analogies, but I am lost on this one. In this analogy Wilson stands in for Jesus Christ on the cross? And the protesters who want his blood are angry Jews who don't know a savior when they see one?

 

[bshole]

Something springs to mind here regarding your point. The prosecutor presented all the evidence, including exculpatory evidence which is not normally done, rather than building his best case for indictment.

Wow, I didn't know that. The prosecutor is kicking sand into the eyes of the protestors. That seems beyond the pale. That is crooked justice.

Are you sure your information is correct?

 

[The Merg]

Were I on that Grand jury, I'd be handing down my decision to acquit (assuming that's how it goes) from as far away from Missouri as I could get.



Everybody's giving bshole a hard time, but he has a ghost of a point here. There is a substantial part of our nation that believes one should be able to attack someone - even a cop - with relative impunity, at least to the extent of not facing retaliation with a more effective weapon. If you attack someone with your fists, they should be charged if they defend themselves with a knife or gun. If you attack someone with a knife, they should be charged if they defend themselves with a gun. It's completely inexplicable to me, but I see that echoed quite often.



I personally wouldn't call it "black people" who believe that since there are plenty of blacks who disagree and plenty of whites who agree but it's a well-represented outlook in America and from my limited perspective, probably world wide. It's simply a broadening of our belief of proportionality, that if someone steps on your toes you should not shoot her.

Unfortunately, that thought process also extends to even when you are threatened with a gun.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ting-at-Highland-Park-Hospital-283271801.html

- Merg

 

[HomerJS]

Something springs to mind here regarding your point. The prosecutor presented all the evidence, including exculpatory evidence which is not normally done, rather than building his best case for indictment. On one hand this is good, as it represents a prosecutor not believing there is sufficient evidence to make a case but recognizing that his community has a significantly different position. On the other hand, by presenting exculpatory evidence (even including testimony) the prosecutor also made it more difficult for the Grand Jury to indict than is normal with cases presented to them. (Or at least, assuming the Ferguson grand jury system works the same way as ours.)

What you said is correct. It results in the grand jury trying the case which is not supposed to happen. Prosecutor knows this and is setting up the situation that forces GJ towards no indictment.

 

[JD50]

Were,

There have been scapegoats throughout history. Jesus was crucified even though Pilate openly acknowledged he was innocent. Pilate did it to keep the peace.

A bone of some kind must be thrown to the aggrieved parties in Ferguson or there is a very good chance of explosive, expensive and deadly violence. Hopefully I am exaggerating the threat (which I have a tendency to do) but I fear that I am not.

My thoughts are not so much controversial as pragmatic. Of course they could open a pandora's box of mob justice which would be awful as well. I am just glad I don't have to deal with this tar baby.

I think we're all happy that you have absolutely nothing to do with this.

 

[soundforbjt]

The Grand Jury needs 9 people to agree, the jury consists of 6 white males, 3 white females, 2 black women, and 1 black man.
Wonder if they'll announce the voting results (just the numbers)?

 

[cubby1223]

Were,

There have been scapegoats throughout history. Jesus was crucified even though Pilate openly acknowledged he was innocent. Pilate did it to keep the peace.

A bone of some kind must be thrown to the aggrieved parties in Ferguson or there is a very good chance of explosive, expensive and deadly violence. Hopefully I am exaggerating the threat (which I have a tendency to do) but I fear that I am not.

My thoughts are not so much controversial as pragmatic. Of course they could open a pandora's box of mob justice which would be awful as well. I am just glad I don't have to deal with this tar baby.

I understand that point of view.

But convicting an innocent person is never the appropriate way to deal with a mob. It doesn't appease the mob into dispersing, it strengthens the mob to acting even more forcefully in the future. We have a wide perception gap between the two sides, the ultimate goal is to close the gap. Sacrificing someone just reinforces the wrong perception.

We do have a long history in this country of blacks being wrongfully arrested, convicted, and jailed for crimes they didn't commit. The answer is never to wrongfully jail people of the opposite skin color to balance out the statistics.



But stepping back from the Ferguson situation, we have a new problem where mob "justice" can take place much more rapidly, more targeted, and longer lasting, thanks to the internet. It will be something that has to get sorted out as the years go by.

 

[cubby1223]

The Grand Jury needs 9 people to agree, the jury consists of 6 white males, 3 white females, 2 black women, and 1 black man.
Wonder if they'll announce the voting results (just the numbers)?

Demographics have the African-American population in the U.S. at ~12%. This grand jury has that demographic at 25% representation. Just pointing those numbers out in case anyone wants to claim the jury is racially biased just by those numbers alone.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

What you said is correct. It results in the grand jury trying the case which is not supposed to happen. Prosecutor knows this and is setting up the situation that forces GJ towards no indictment.

Unless the GJ requests it. BTW it is not permissible to withhold exculpatory evidence before a grand jury depending on whether it is a Federal charge (where you would be correct) but in some states it's required. AFAIK it's not the case in MO, but if evidence is asked for then it's considered prosecutorial misconduct to deny it. That's because the usual reason for suppressing it is to ensure the prosecutor can't overly influence for indictment, which happens all too often.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

That was my point.

If your point is that Wilson should stand trial if the grand jury recommends that be the case then we have no disagreement. Wilson should have no immunity to the process.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Wow, I didn't know that. The prosecutor is kicking sand into the eyes of the protestors. That seems beyond the pale. That is crooked justice.

Are you sure your information is correct?

In any case you have absolutely no credibility when discussing justice. I'm more concerned about people like you than either Brown or Wilson.

 

[FerrelGeek]

Tell ya what, bro. You go volunteer to be the scapegoat. Live out your convictions. Show us the way. Do that and I'll supply the lube for your time in jail, just to show my gratitude.

Were,

There have been scapegoats throughout history. Jesus was crucified even though Pilate openly acknowledged he was innocent. Pilate did it to keep the peace.

A bone of some kind must be thrown to the aggrieved parties in Ferguson or there is a very good chance of explosive, expensive and deadly violence. Hopefully I am exaggerating the threat (which I have a tendency to do) but I fear that I am not.

My thoughts are not so much controversial as pragmatic. Of course they could open a pandora's box of mob justice which would be awful as well. I am just glad I don't have to deal with this tar baby.

 

[HumblePie]

I'd agree that is usually the case, but usually is not always. If Brown was sufficiently high, would he even be thinking in terms of right and wrong versus simple desire fulfillment?

Not off of weed alone which is what I saw as only reported so far. The right narcotics can cause someone to do this sort of stuff, but they wouldn't be acting as coherently as Brown is in that video. Strong enough drugs to affect the mind to do that affect the body's movements and other actions as well.

The video points to actions take by Brown as actions he has built up to over time and gotten away with in the past.

 

[HumblePie]

I don't understand your or Perk's connotations. I googled and couldn't tell what you were talking about even after hiding personal Google search results. Google suggested that you mean "Trey Skittle" but that didn't change anything. We all know that Trayvon bought Skittles and Arizona Watermelon Fruit Punch and that those were two of the three ingredients he and his friends used to make "fire ass lean." Is that what you wanted us to be aware of? Is that what Perknose is being dismissive of? Did I miss some development that makes it something to dismiss? I don't know if you can elaborate after Perk's comment, but I would not mind a PM from either of you explaining this.

Skittles was the candy that Trayvon was buying at the store that night he was killed. It was used as symbol by some, along with tea, as part of the rallying cry for showing his innocence during the night. It was projected by many that a teenager that set out that night to only buy a can of tea and candy couldn't possibly be up to no good. Thus anything that could be bad that night was all actions taken by George. While not exactly stated as such, it is very easy to see the inference to that assumption in the protests, pictures, and speeches made by those against GZ.

Those on the other side either just ignored it, or made fun of the inference of the candy and tea being symbols of Trayvon's innocence and cherub good nature as a person. It was used to mock back at the Trayvon supporters once more evidence came to public light about who the real Trayvon was.

There are some users on this forum. Spidery for instance, that are very pro-white and outwardly admit their racial feelings. While making fun in the same way as other GZ supporters were of the hyperbole of the candy and tea, it was seen by some in this forum as new code words for racial slurs of a sort. The problem is that in topics like this, basically most posts by Spidey are hidden racial slurs regardless of what he states. Why? Because he's an admitted racist. Still, some around don't like certain specific ways he does his insults, regardless of whether that hidden racial slurs or not.

Being condescending of the candy once used a symbol in Trayvon's scenario is one though and not actually racial in and of itself.

 

[bshole]

Tell ya what, bro. You go volunteer to be the scapegoat. Live out your convictions. Show us the way. Do that and I'll supply the lube for your time in jail, just to show my gratitude.

If I had shot and killed this man and was witness to the unrest that it had generated, then I would submit to a trial and automatically stipulate that there was probably cause to indict. I am protecting and serving nobody if my actions lead to mass riots and mayhem.

 

[WackyDan]

Were I on that Grand jury, I'd be handing down my decision to acquit (assuming that's how it goes) from as far away from Missouri as I could get.

Grand Jury participants are not allowed to even out themselves as such, nor is the judicial system. Their anonymity is all but guaranteed. Even if someone in the press figures it out and outs one, those responsible, including the journalist is going to jail.

 

[highland145]

If I had shot and killed this man and was witness to the unrest that it had generated, then I would submit to a trial and automatically stipulate that there was probably cause to indict. I am protecting and serving nobody if my actions lead to mass riots and mayhem.

So people act like a bunch of fools and you'd put your neck on the block....trusting the system?


C
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A
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[Londo_Jowo]

If I had shot and killed this man and was witness to the unrest that it had generated, then I would submit to a trial and automatically stipulate that there was probably cause to indict. I am protecting and serving nobody if my actions lead to mass riots and mayhem.

First, what the hell is probably cause?

Second, if the I shot the person and knew it was in self defense I would not submit myself to an unwarranted trial that would waste taxpayer's money that could used for something more useful in the community.

 

[WackyDan]

If I had shot and killed this man and was witness to the unrest that it had generated, then I would submit to a trial and automatically stipulate that there was probably cause to indict. I am protecting and serving nobody if my actions lead to mass riots and mayhem.

I'm no expert but I'm not sure there is a judicial mechanism for you to indict yourself unless you are stupid and lie about what really happened just to make yourself appear "guilty".

What you are suggesting isn't what you would do, just admit it.

 

[WackyDan]

First, what the hell is probably cause?

Second, if the I shot the person and knew it was in self defense I would not submit myself to an unwarranted trial that would waste taxpayer's money that could used for something more useful in the community.

Not to mention cost you a fortune of your own money and future earnings if you were even employable after the fact.

 

[werepossum]

Wow, I didn't know that. The prosecutor is kicking sand into the eyes of the protestors. That seems beyond the pale. That is crooked justice.

Are you sure your information is correct?

I think it may officially be rumor, but it's widely accepted.

Unfortunately, that thought process also extends to even when you are threatened with a gun.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ting-at-Highland-Park-Hospital-283271801.html

- Merg

Yep, and it's a never-ending goal post processional.

He didn't have a gun!

Oh, he had a gun. Well, the cop should have tried to talk him down.

Oh, he fired at the cop. Well, he didn't hit him.

Oh, he did hit him. Well, he obviously wasn't injured badly, since he fired back.

Oh, the cop's dead? Good. I mean, um, that's a real shame.

Bad time to be a cop.

Course, not a great time to be a young black male faced by a cop either. 😉

What you said is correct. It results in the grand jury trying the case which is not supposed to happen. Prosecutor knows this and is setting up the situation that forces GJ towards no indictment.

Yeah, I've got mixed feelings about that. The Grand Jury should not be trying cases, but on the other hand I doubt the prosecutor would have brought it to them at all without the public pressure.

 

[Blanky]

If I had shot and killed this man and was witness to the unrest that it had generated, then I would submit to a trial and automatically stipulate that there was probably cause to indict. I am protecting and serving nobody if my actions lead to mass riots and mayhem.

A guy like you is the last to sacrifice yourself on the alter, who are you kidding? Nobody here.

 

[soundforbjt]

Demographics have the African-American population in the U.S. at ~12%. This grand jury has that demographic at 25% representation. Just pointing those numbers out in case anyone wants to claim the jury is racially biased just by those numbers alone.

St Louis is 70% white, Ferguson is 2/3 black.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

St Louis is 70% white, Ferguson is 2/3 black.

Ferguson is under the jurisdiction of St Louis County and Grand Jury is made up from St Louis County court system pool.

It's no different than where I live, the cities of Katy, Sugar Land, Richmond, Rosenberg, Stafford, and Missouri City are in Fort Bend County. There's a common court house that handles all of Fort Bend County and the jury pool comes from citizens of the county.

 

[werepossum]

Unless the GJ requests it. BTW it is not permissible to withhold exculpatory evidence before a grand jury depending on whether it is a Federal charge (where you would be correct) but in some states it's required. AFAIK it's not the case in MO, but if evidence is asked for then it's considered prosecutorial misconduct to deny it. That's because the usual reason for suppressing it is to ensure the prosecutor can't overly influence for indictment, which happens all too often.

I think there's an argument to be made for requiring all exculpatory evidence to be presented, in every case. The prosecutor is supposedly neutral, but everyone has his or her biases. However, when it happens as an isolated incident - and the exculpatory evidence is exonerating a cop - it stands out. I can see arguments either way, but I'm not real comfortable with it as an isolated incident even though I understand the reasoning behind it.

Not off of weed alone which is what I saw as only reported so far. The right narcotics can cause someone to do this sort of stuff, but they wouldn't be acting as coherently as Brown is in that video. Strong enough drugs to affect the mind to do that affect the body's movements and other actions as well.

The video points to actions take by Brown as actions he has built up to over time and gotten away with in the past.

Maybe, although I knew a guy in high school who was so smoked up (weed only) that he rear-ended a bright red and white Coca-Cola tractor trailer in the middle of sunny day on a straight four-lane highway. He hit it three times; the only reason he didn't hit it four times was that the impact had driven the radiator back around the fan to the point of stalling the engine. When the truck driver reached him, Bobby was still steering even though his car wasn't actually moving, and he was lucid enough to hold a conversation with the driver but not lucid enough to stop steering. Doesn't seem like too much of a reach to extrapolate that to simply taking cigars and pushing whomever gets in your way. Granted, that requires a certain amount of innate violence, but that's in practically every teenage male. The ME was saying Brown was high enough to experience hallucinations; that would certainly impair one's judgement. Although full disclosure, I've been friends with a lot of people who smoked a LOT of pot back in the day and I've never heard of anyone having hallucinations from it unless it's tainted with something that presumably would have turned up in his blood. (I don't think it's a stretch to assume that the authorities left no stone unturned looking for something that made Brown look more culpable to save one of their own - not to mention maybe keep some of their city standing.)

Looking at it from the other angle, Brown was a very large black teenaged male, apparently without much money or connections. There simply is no demographic that gets less of a pass from our legal system than this one. If Brown had a habit and pattern of this behavior, I'd think we'd have seen evidence of it. Freakin' security cameras everywhere now. Even his social media accounts are clean - he didn't seem to smile more than once in a blue moon, but he wasn't acting all gangsta, which puts him ahead of most teenage males.

Grand Jury participants are not allowed to even out themselves as such, nor is the judicial system. Their anonymity is all but guaranteed. Even if someone in the press figures it out and outs one, those responsible, including the journalist is going to jail.

Yeah, but what's the odds that every single person knowing their identities is going to respect that anonymity? Republicans have repeatedly had legally-required confidentiality violated by government workers, and this issue is a LOT more heated than politics.