Minnesota Democrat Lawmaker And Husband Assassinated, Another Democrat Lawmaker and Wife Wounded.

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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
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What happens when "Marxists don't get their way"? WTF is he talking about?

Trying to make some sense of it, I have to conclude he's saying that if Marxists aren't allowed to run the country (and install a communist economic system?) , then socio-economic developments will be such that you'll end up with right-wing anti-abortion nuts assassinating democratically-elected (centrist) politicians?

Thus, the conclusion he presumably wants us to draw, is that it's important to put Marxists in charge of the country, so as to avert this kind of terrorism?

Mike Lee probably can't even define Marxist. "Marxist" sounds scary to those living in fear of a boogyman. So he's Gaslighting. It's hilarious listening to these moron Magas who call everyone Marxists. They really don't know what an actual Marxist is. They understand little if anything, but its popular among them. Marxist, Communist, Socialists, Demons incoming. These are trigger words...and they work like a bell for free food.

Sociopaths can't be shamed unfortunately. But if they lose money or power, that leaves a mark.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,258
1,842
126
These are just the initial filings. More charges can always come later.

Also, you need to look carefully at each state's definitions for murder degrees - it's not very uniform.
Yeah -- a little clear thought would ad least raise that as a possibility -- even before verifying it so.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,258
1,842
126
Mike Lee probably can't even define Marxist. "Marxist" sounds scary to those living in fear of a boogyman. So he's Gaslighting. It's hilarious listening to these moron Magas who call everyone Marxists. They really don't know what an actual Marxist is. They understand little if anything, but its popular among them. Marxist, Communist, Socialists, Demons incoming. These are trigger words...and they work like a bell for free food.

Sociopaths can't be shamed unfortunately. But if they lose money or power, that leaves a mark.
I could be Marxist, because I accept class struggle as a reality and social phenomenon. If you subscribed to Marx's theory of history and class-struggle, it has nothing to do with the Communist Manifesto -- nothing in particular. This latter book or pamphlet was a blueprint for the construction of a totalitarian government as a means to thwart or direct history. But Kapital was a purely academic work which was written primarily as an argumentative response to Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations". Why wouldn't there be an earnest response to Smith's work?

Scholars aren't supposed to get the last word on anything. It is only the brainless ideologue making use of a cue card for debating, and whose intellectual laziness requires a screed to follow without understanding it in context of a wider and unlimited synopsis of other related ideas -- such as an opposing response.

How did our public school system turn loose such idiots as we have today?

Democrats seem shy to explaining this, because they don't want to be labeled with the stupid labels of stupid people. But somebody should do it, because the GOP and their labelling is nothing but a power play. It doesn't properly serve any intellectual purpose.

I have friends who only told me today that I don't win over MAGA True Believers by insulting them or calling them Stupid. I suppose I don't care. They're lost down their own rabbit-hole of cloudy deception and sloppy thinking, led by a Pied Piper or White Rabbit like Steve Bannon. That's why all we get under Trump is Chaos.

They never really had a thoughtful plan to enact or enable anything without thoughtlessly hurting other groups of citizens. And if the laws enacted by congress must be followed as we adhere to a Rule of Law, there will be costs in putting things back together after their thoughtless destruction.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Damn. The US right has not the faintest interest in truth or reality, has it? It's all Dr Goebbels, all the time, with them.



Within hours of the shootings, rightwing social media accounts with millions of followers manufactured false conspiracy theories about the suspect and his motives, falsely portraying the man whose friends say he is an evangelical Christian Trump supporter as a radical leftwing assassin and attempting to paint him as a political ally of Tim Walz, the Democratic governor and former vice-presidential candidate.


Rightwing social media personality Mike Cernovich, with 1.5 million followers, escalated the lie by suggesting Walz ordered the assassination. He hasn’t taken the post down and has continued to advance the claims, posting on Monday that “Democrats know they are now seen as the party of political violence so their propaganda agents are trying to shift the blame. It won’t work.”

Laura Loomer, the far-right conspiracy theorist and Trump whisperer, posted that “Walz’s goons are now assassinating lawmakers who support legislation Walz opposes” and called the Democratic party “a terrorist organization”. Loomer and others on the right also tried to tie Boelter to the “No Kings” protests against the Trump administration. Officials found rudimentary signs in the suspect’s vehicle that said “No Kings”, an indication he knew of the event, not that he would attend it as a protester.

Elon Musk, a frequent poster of unverified rightwing claims, amplified the narrative to his 200 million followers, quote-tweeting claims that “the left” killed Hortman and saying “the far left is murderously violent”.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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How do you deal with a political faction that just lies, non-stop, without compunction? And which has vast financial media resources with which to perpetrate its lying?
 
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RalphTheCow

Senior member
Sep 14, 2000
954
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But expected, religious people regularly excuse terrible behavior as they feel justified in it.
Yeah, it seems like indoctrination of any kind is still indoctrination and not good. My maternal grandmother was the sweetest church lady and a very thoughtful and caring and sharing person, and the church instilled some awful beliefs in her, like no other religion was valid. Pretty sad.

I was proud of my dad for being the only really secular person in his churchy family.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,308
20,022
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Yeah, it seems like indoctrination of any kind is still indoctrination and not good. My maternal grandmother was the sweetest church lady and a very thoughtful and caring and sharing person, and the church instilled some awful beliefs in her, like no other religion was valid. Pretty sad.

I was proud of my dad for being the only really secular person in his churchy family.

Good you recognize it. I was indoctrinated but it never felt right. The indoctrination has an impact nonetheless. I did not do that to my kids, and explaining what it was like is difficult.
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,564
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How do you deal with a political faction that just lies, non-stop, without compunction? And which has vast financial media resources with which to perpetrate its lying?
Well, that's the big question, isn't it?
Good you recognize it. I was indoctrinated but it never felt right. The indoctrination has an impact nonetheless. I did not do that to my kids, and explaining what it was like is difficult.
As someone who was raised without any religious presence (and no atheism either, the topic was just not a factor in home life growing up) it was really weird learning about the religious folks. Especially when we moved to Utah when I was in middle school...
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,258
1,842
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I'm now of the opinion that we should re-institute compulsory military or alternative service in this country. We live now in a narcissistic culture wherein people have this puffed-up view of themselves and their silly opinions. Of course, everyone has opinions, but this Right-wing faction has opinions based on little study, reading or understanding.

The compulsory service might make it less likely that this aberrant thinking would be tolerated and otherwise tempered by assimilation and acceptance of others, in a situation wherein their opinions are put in their place.

I also don't think people have enough work to do so that there's no time to dream up all the nonsense they exhibit these days.

But particularly, these religious groups or institutions advocating to overthrow the government are extremely troubling.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,564
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Why not? Conservatives always quick to call someone the left Marxist and that is the worst thing ever. Should be an easy answer for them. Am I wrong?
pcgeek hasn't been particularly active in the P&N sub lately, Felix rarely gives any serious answers, and same for Greenman. So yes, you're wrong, it's not an easy answer for them.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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I think Felix has one foot each in either party though he seems to take the foot out of the red side every now and then before quickly putting it back in again. Can't make up his mind.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,258
1,842
126
Can someone tell me why Marxist is such a bad thing compared to white nationalist?
Go back to my post #103. It's not "such a bad thing". The Right has just seized on it and lumped it together with the other publication "Communist Manifesto" which appeared decades later and had a co-author in Friedrich Engels.

There is an economist named Richard Wolff who had taught at Amherst, the New School for Social Research, Yale, CCNY and U of Utah. He'd been interviewed in a lengthy series by Bill Moyers some years ago. He's a Marxist economist, or he teaches "Marxist economics" and lists as a specialty "class analysis".

He had noted that there is an entity called the "Marxist firm" or "Marxist corporation", such that the majority of the business owners were the employees of the business, and he cited various examples of these businesses showing that they worked. They sustained themselves in the market-place.

Let's get this straight, though, while I'm still having my morning coffee. From the time of the Stalin Scare and the McCarthy Hearings and blacklists, the Right has been the most ardent purveyor of "Anti-Communism" targeting anything that comes out of the "Socialist toolbox". Much of government is a matter of collective action and could be said to issue forth from that toolbox -- providing goods and services that the private sector did not, could not, would not and will not provide.

George Kennan was a principal author of early Cold War Strategic Doctrine toward "containment of Communism". He noted that the problem with the Russians was less of their being communists and more of their being Russians -- who had a thousand-year history of autocratic rule. They were serfs before the Bolsheviks, they were serfs under Communism, and they are serfs now. The entire point of our strategic doctrine was to oppose Totalitarianism or Authoritarianism -- a concept under which Fascism and Communism are both included. But it was sold to the public against the backdrop of Stalin. With or without Stalin, the Soviet economy barely worked.

We know that total collectivism and abolishment of private ownership or private property don't work. And we know that the imposition of communism requires a totalitarian dictatorship -- which we do not want.

But I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch for "embracing class struggle". As a matter of statistics and probability, if you were born into the Middle Class, you are most likely to remain in the Middle Class. We better ourselves materially by judiciously choosing profitable chess-board squares from which to pursue our lives. Many people fail to pick the optimum, but they work hard and make a living. And the pursuit of wealth can crowd out other productive efforts that are part of the life experience.

So when Alexandra Ocasio Cortez describes herself as a "democratic socialist", I'm not in the least alarmed, but only unhappy for her that she gives herself this label so she can more easily be attacked by the Right. Is she holding up though? She damn well is.

But we have to be knowledgeable about the history and progression of myths that have driven Public Opinion for a good part of a century. Remember "Paper Moon" with Ryan and Tatum O'Neal? Remember the scene where the little girl gets chased by the rotund woman shouting "Come back here, ya little Communiss'!!" Then you find the paranoia that infected the Manhattan Project, with a threat that was real but the upending of several innocent lives. And the Hollywood blacklists of the '50s.

The truth, though, is that what is happening now under Trump is the same phenomenon the public feared coming from the external threat of "International Communism". Is North Korean "Communist"? That's what they say, but in many respects, North Korea is Fascist and displays something residual of the pre-WWII occupation by Japanese Fascists.
 

RalphTheCow

Senior member
Sep 14, 2000
954
377
136
I wonder why this forum has sort of self-selected to have few right-wingers? I was apprehensive when I first dipped my toe in the waters a year or so ago that I would be met with a barrage of Trumpers, like in real life, and I live in NJ. :(
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,302
16,641
136
I wonder why this forum has sort of self-selected to have few right-wingers? I was apprehensive when I first dipped my toe in the waters a year or so ago that I would be met with a barrage of Trumpers, like in real life, and I live in NJ. :(

Because we, collectively, didn’t allow them to spread their alternative realities. Without “alt facts” they have nothing and aren’t capable of having any sort of debate. The ones that have stuck around can’t even post their opinions without referring to an alternative reality and so they don’t bother and they basically just post whataboutism’s and then run away.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,287
9,484
136
Damn. The US right has not the faintest interest in truth or reality, has it? It's all Dr Goebbels, all the time, with them.
I heard Newsmax, just yesterday, call this a "Walz appointed Democrat killing other Democrats".
Nothing peaceful stops their propaganda train.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,422
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I heard Newsmax, just yesterday, call this a "Walz appointed Democrat killing other Democrats".
Nothing peaceful stops their propaganda train.
Country is fucking doomed with the likes of Fox Newsmax, etc

Checked again Fox News still has not covered Mike Lee mocking their deaths. Far as their people know it didn’t happen
 
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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,089
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Country is fucking doomed with the likes of Fox Newsmax, etc

Checked again Fox News still has not covered Mike Lee mocking their deaths. Far as their people know it didn’t happen

Oh they know, Virtually all the right-wing echo chambers I follow shared both tweets with glee.
 
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