Minister admits Kyoto targets unrealistic

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by: Stunt
It will not bankrupt if you implement it correctly.
it's not intended to shut down industry...but make industry run cleaner...make ppl energy aware....lower consumption.

These are not hard concepts.
Who knows...could boost a country's revenue. Look at netherlands...#1 producer of winmills...they are doing quite well with that industry.
How much is the US making off selling oil...i'll tell ya...not much...
there's being a consumer and there's being an innovator, leader and producer.

.... the operative phrase is "if you implement it correctly." Canada did not, and by your very own admission, may have to pay the price. :roll:

... and you can't possibly compare the US with the Netherlands - a country the size of a postage stamp.

Have you completely missed the headlines about new alternative fuels that American scientists have been developing? Guess what! We did it without Kyoto.

The sun does not rise and set with Kyoto. I don't understand your irrational love affair with it.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison
Sure OUr products require no energy to make or ship. They just magically appears on stores in canada. :roll:

Feel free to back up your claims.

sigh you just dont get it.
energy needed to create steel and pump oil and generate electricity is far greater than products that come north...you do the research...prove me wrong...im talking to 4 ppl 😛
make urself useful rather than quoting an article to try to back up your reasoning for not signing on.

3 cheers for zero improvement and disregarding science!

back up the claims.

Canada imports

machinery and equipment, motor vehicles and parts, crude oil, chemicals, electricity, durable consumer goods

Non of these sound like non energy intensive products.

So time for you to back up your claims.

Those are imports from US exclusively?
and you have energy consumption in creating those products?
and yes oil extraction, electricity generation, and steel/mineral extraction are far more energy intensive than those 🙂

U.S. steel exports to Canada now account for almost 60% of all U.S. steel exports, a significant increase over the level of 33% of all U.S. steel exports less than a decade ago.[

linkage

Electricity - imports 11.725 billion kWh (1998) I am sure these come from the US, as they dont make batteries that big

linkage

virtual one way aluminum trade with Canada

linkage

you were saying?

from ur link:

Electricity - exports 39.502 billion kWh (1998)

Electricity - imports 11.725 billion kWh (1998)

im gonna assume the elec export is US?...wow...3 times higher...😛

Steel

Canada exports: US $463M
U.S. exports: US $210M

Canada exports: US $65M
U.S. exports: US $62M

Canada exports: US $573M
U.S. exports: US $275M

Canada exports: US $72M
U.S. exports: US $232M

Canada exports: US $42M
U.S. exports: US $34M

Canada exports: US $37M
U.S. exports: US $26M

nice skewing in your favor.
3 times more elec goes south (your link)
you export more flanges and tool joints.
mass production materials like bars are heavily canadian

 

[Stunt]

Forgot oil too😛
keep on skewing...

In 2001, about 31% of Canadian energy production was exported, with the United States its main customer. In the first three quarters of 2003, the United States imported more oil (including crude oil and petroleum products) from Canada than from any other country. During the same time period, the United States also imported about 2.5 trillion cubic feet (Tcf) of Canadian natural gas, representing 87% of total U.S. natural gas imports.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison
Sure OUr products require no energy to make or ship. They just magically appears on stores in canada. :roll:

Feel free to back up your claims.

sigh you just dont get it.
energy needed to create steel and pump oil and generate electricity is far greater than products that come north...you do the research...prove me wrong...im talking to 4 ppl 😛
make urself useful rather than quoting an article to try to back up your reasoning for not signing on.

3 cheers for zero improvement and disregarding science!

back up the claims.

Canada imports

machinery and equipment, motor vehicles and parts, crude oil, chemicals, electricity, durable consumer goods

Non of these sound like non energy intensive products.

So time for you to back up your claims.

Those are imports from US exclusively?
and you have energy consumption in creating those products?
and yes oil extraction, electricity generation, and steel/mineral extraction are far more energy intensive than those 🙂

U.S. steel exports to Canada now account for almost 60% of all U.S. steel exports, a significant increase over the level of 33% of all U.S. steel exports less than a decade ago.[

linkage

Electricity - imports 11.725 billion kWh (1998) I am sure these come from the US, as they dont make batteries that big

linkage

virtual one way aluminum trade with Canada

linkage

you were saying?

from ur link:

Electricity - exports 39.502 billion kWh (1998)

Electricity - imports 11.725 billion kWh (1998)

im gonna assume the elec export is US?...wow...3 times higher...😛

Steel

Canada exports: US $463M
U.S. exports: US $210M

Canada exports: US $65M
U.S. exports: US $62M

Canada exports: US $573M
U.S. exports: US $275M

Canada exports: US $72M
U.S. exports: US $232M

Canada exports: US $42M
U.S. exports: US $34M

Canada exports: US $37M
U.S. exports: US $26M

nice skewing in your favor.
3 times more elec goes south (your link)
you export more flanges and tool joints.
mass production materials like bars are heavily canadian

You are the one that is skewing. You are the one claiming the US is solely responsable for your polution problems. I have already provided enough evidence that your assertion is false.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: charrison
You are the one that is skewing. You are the one claiming the US is solely responsable for your polution problems. I have already provided enough evidence that you are assertion is false.

I said the reason for our high energy levels was due to the enormous amount of energy used to extract oil to export that we do not consume.

you are skewing because you disregarded the electricity export and took the import.

also...look at the oil and gas numbers.

face it these tasks are energy intensive...and we do not consume it as a country.

kyoto is our problem...i dont disagree with that.

but to criticize our pollution for things we are extracting for you and you only...and the US not doing anything about conservation or pollution control...

I find it quite hypocrtical...
don't you?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison
You are the one that is skewing. You are the one claiming the US is solely responsable for your polution problems. I have already provided enough evidence that you are assertion is false.

I said the reason for our high energy levels was due to the enormous amount of energy used to extract oil to export that we do not consume.

you are skewing because you disregarded the electricity export and took the import.

also...look at the oil and gas numbers.

face it these tasks are energy intensive...and we do not consume it as a country.

kyoto is our problem...i dont disagree with that.

but to criticize our pollution for things we are extracting for you and you only...and the US not doing anything about conservation or pollution control...

I find it quite hypocrtical...
don't you?

You have yet to prove that canadian imports from the US are any less energy intensive that your exports to the US. Hell you have yet to even try to prove that.

 

[RabidMongoose]

but to criticize our pollution for things we are extracting for you and you only...and the US not doing anything about conservation or pollution control...

I find it quite hypocrtical...
don't you?

No, not really. That is Canada's problem and apparently Canada's greed is the problem.

Is the US not doing anything about pollution control? Do you have anything to back you up?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

but to criticize our pollution for things we are extracting for you and you only...and the US not doing anything about conservation or pollution control...

I find it quite hypocrtical...
don't you?

No, not really. That is Canada's problem and apparently Canada's greed is the problem.

Is the US not doing anything about pollution control? Do you have anything to back you up?

He wont back up anything up. He just keeps repeating what he wants to beleive.

 

[charrison]

US exports to Canada

US imports from Canada

The lists look highly similar.

 

[Stunt]

not even close:
from your link:

Product, Can to US, US to Can

Crude 14,123,094 vs 128,218
Fuel oil 2,160,342 vs 512,075
Other petroleum products 3,614,629 vs 1,082,232
Gas-natural 16,115,804 vs 1,177,890
Nuclear Fuel Materials and Fuels 226,690 vs 50,137
Electric energy 1,328,742 vs 755,696

Look at the numbers..the products are similar but we are heavily resource based...extraction is far more energy intensive...
oil and gas consumption

The Western Canadian oil and gas industry consumes approximately $4 billion/yr in energy based on an assumed average energy cost of $3/GJ.

Energy use (oil and gas sector) = 1.33e9 GJ/year

From cia site:
566.3 billion kWh (of which 20bil kWh goes to the US - not even taking in line losses or plant inefficiencies) = 546.3 kWh*3600 s/h = 1.97e6 billion kJ/year = 1.97e15 kJ/year = 1.97e13 MJ/year = 1.97e10 GJ/year

therefore...as you can see the oil and gas industry of which we export much much more than you looking at the data from your link...consumes over 7% of our energy consumption.
That's just one industry...that's not including other industries like mineral extraction or forestry...

 

[SwissArmyBilly]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

3 cheers for zero improvement and disregarding science

So has the US not decreased emissions?

BTW, since when was 'science' unanimous about Kyoto? Are you saying that the Kyoto Treaty as it is right now is going to have a significant impact on the climate?

No the US has not decreased emissions, in fact they have increased significantly. As far as Kyoto goes, the main reason its goals wont be met is that it wasnt implemented. It was written nearly a decade ago and most countries that signed it didnt do anything about it because it wasnt in force. In fact it doesnt come into force until feb 16th. If actions had been taken earlier the goals would have been pretty easy to meet.

Billy

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Stunt
not even close:
from your link:

Product, Can to US, US to Can

Crude 14,123,094 vs 128,218
Fuel oil 2,160,342 vs 512,075
Other petroleum products 3,614,629 vs 1,082,232
Gas-natural 16,115,804 vs 1,177,890
Nuclear Fuel Materials and Fuels 226,690 vs 50,137
Electric energy 1,328,742 vs 755,696

Look at the numbers..the products are similar but we are heavily resource based...extraction is far more energy intensive...
oil and gas consumption

The Western Canadian oil and gas industry consumes approximately $4 billion/yr in energy based on an assumed average energy cost of $3/GJ.

Energy use (oil and gas sector) = 1.33e9 GJ/year

From cia site:
566.3 billion kWh (of which 20bil kWh goes to the US - not even taking in line losses or plant inefficiencies) = 546.3 kWh*3600 s/h = 1.97e6 billion kJ/year = 1.97e15 kJ/year = 1.97e13 MJ/year = 1.97e10 GJ/year

therefore...as you can see the oil and gas industry of which we export much much more than you looking at the data from your link...consumes over 7% of our energy consumption.
That's just one industry...that's not including other industries like mineral extraction or forestry...

You like to cherry pick the data dont you?