Minimum Wage/EITC

[HombrePequeno]

Why do so many on the left call for a minimum wage increase? I realize it's a cool term to throw around and sounds like it would be helping everyone but it doesn't seem like the best tool for the job. What I find even worse is the calls for raising the national minimum wage as opposed to just regional increases. I don't see how that makes much sense considering cost of living is different in each part of the country. The call for higher minimum wage is generally done by citizens in urban areas where the cost of living is higher.

Why given all the negatives of minimum wage increases (slight inflation, lower employment, harder for small businesses, etc.) would you want to use it for anti-poverty? Wouldn't it make much more sense to use something that was designed to fight poverty like the EITC?

If someone could help illuminate the reasons for a minimum wage increase as opposed to an increase in the EITC, that may be helpful.

 

[charrison]

It is feel good legislation that has little effect. A couple of more years without a minimum wage increase and it will very obvious. I know you would be hard pressed to find a job here that started at minimum wage. Most entry level job start above the minimum wage at this point and the stats do show that.

 

[UberNeuman]

ah, for something that is "feel good legislation" and the idea that most entry level jobs are above the minimum wage, there seems little point to be against it....

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: UberNeuman
ah, for something that is "feel good legislation" and the idea that most entry level jobs are above the minimum wage, there seems little point to be against it....

But that is the point, why regulate a market that is regulating itself just fine.

 

[UberNeuman]

If raising the min wage translates to nothing, then why oppose it?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: UberNeuman
If raising the min wage translates to nothing, then why oppose it?

Because laws should not be passed just because they feel good.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: UberNeuman
If raising the min wage translates to nothing, then why oppose it?

Again, it doesn't translate to nothing. It increases inflation slightly, raises unemployment slightly overall, and makes it harder for small businesses to compete with large corporations. These effects are even larger in more rural areas where cost of living is much lower.

I'm still not seeing why we should be raising minimum wage as opposed to just raising the EITC.

 

[fitzov]

I think several states passed new minimum wage increases this election cycle (Missouri is one of them, I believe). Are these all leftist states?

 

[Arkaign]

EITC is welfare hidden by a nice acronym.

Minimum wage forces employers to pay working people a (supposedly) livable wage.

Whether you prefer one or the other is political/philosophical in nature.

IMHO, neither one is perfect, but you wonder how much worse things might be without these systems in place. And minimum wage is not just an urban problem (where rent is high, food is high, and minimum wage is starvation wage), it's a rural problem as well when the area isn't affluent to begin with.

I don't believe that the minimum wage is that destructive to business, and to those who say 'well jobs are already paying more than minimum wage', I assure you that millions of Americans are stuck in jobs that pay not a penny more.

I agree with the pressure being tougher on small business. I do think it lets large corporations off the hook too easy, as they are all too happy to pay corporate execs hundreds of millions of dollars while paying the absolute legal minimum where they can get away with it.

Maybe I just have a cynical outlook on humanity, but after looking at roughly 5,000 years of civilization in depth, I think in the end all anyone cares about is themselves, and they will screw anyone else over they can in order to get more, even if they don't need it. This is overgeneralization, but generally true.

So basically, we're all screwed. Power corrupts, hate is stronger than love, and no one person can stand against the inexorable march of entropy that defines our human existence. Given techology to reach to the stars, yet our most powerful nation pukes up GBW and John Kerry as the choices to lead us? Disgusting.

 

[Craig234]

Minimum wage is a tool which takes the economy out of its natural state of feudalism and increases the middle class. If not for the government taking actions like this and legalizing organized labor (the government used to shoot strikers at times), wages for many would never rise above the bare level to live.

A century ago, before the government enacted reforms, the average wage in the US adjusted for inflation was $10,000, though the robber barons did just fine.

That's the 'market regulating things just fine' you saw mentioned in the post above.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

I don't believe that the minimum wage is that destructive to business, and to those who say 'well jobs are already paying more than minimum wage', I assure you that millions of Americans are stuck in jobs that pay not a penny more.

Only about 2% of the population make make minimum wage. About 1/2 of those still live with their parents.

Also remember that right now technology can fairly easily replace many low skill/low wage jobs. Self checkout lanes at grocery stores are prime example of this. Careful for what you wish for with a higher minimum wage.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Minimum wage is a tool which takes the economy out of its natural state of feudalism and increases the middle class. If not for the government taking actions like this and legalizing organized labor (the government used to shoot strikers at times), wages for many would never rise above the bare level to live.

A century ago, before the government enacted reforms, the average wage in the US adjusted for inflation was $10,000, though the robber barons did just fine.

That's the 'market regulating things just fine' you saw mentioned in the post above.

Power corrupts, and the corrupted will never stop marching on the backs of those below them..

 

[maluckey]

Minimum wage increases are like taxing the rich. 2 percent of the population are minimum wage and slightly more than that are "rich". niether action does anything useful except waste taxpayer money that should be used on ways to secure the borders.

 

[Arkaign]

2% of the US Population is 6 million people, not exactly insubstantial.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
2% of the US Population is 6 million people, not exactly insubstantial.

Considering the vast majority are young workers, it is not all that substantial.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
EITC is welfare hidden by a nice acronym.

Minimum wage forces employers to pay working people a (supposedly) livable wage.

Whether you prefer one or the other is political/philosophical in nature.

IMHO, neither one is perfect, but you wonder how much worse things might be without these systems in place. And minimum wage is not just an urban problem (where rent is high, food is high, and minimum wage is starvation wage), it's a rural problem as well when the area isn't affluent to begin with.

I don't believe that the minimum wage is that destructive to business, and to those who say 'well jobs are already paying more than minimum wage', I assure you that millions of Americans are stuck in jobs that pay not a penny more.

I agree with the pressure being tougher on small business. I do think it lets large corporations off the hook too easy, as they are all too happy to pay corporate execs hundreds of millions of dollars while paying the absolute legal minimum where they can get away with it.

Maybe I just have a cynical outlook on humanity, but after looking at roughly 5,000 years of civilization in depth, I think in the end all anyone cares about is themselves, and they will screw anyone else over they can in order to get more, even if they don't need it. This is overgeneralization, but generally true.

So basically, we're all screwed. Power corrupts, hate is stronger than love, and no one person can stand against the inexorable march of entropy that defines our human existence. Given techology to reach to the stars, yet our most powerful nation pukes up GBW and John Kerry as the choices to lead us? Disgusting.

It is a problem in rural areas but the problem is with increasing minimum wage. I come from a rural town in WA (highest minimum wage out of all the states) and looking at the high unemployment there makes me sad. I have also noticed a shift from the area having numerous small businesses, to small businesses going out of business and people flocking to places like Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart isn't exactly the best business when it comes to reinvesting money into local economies, at least not from my experience.

The EITC could be considered welfare, I guess. There is evidence that it increases job participation and it doesn't have all of the regulations like TANF (which is still a pretty decent program).

 

[Vic]

A basic, low minimum wage level serves as a kind of fraud protection for the very lowest rung of workers. In this fashion, I support it. However, the latest rallying cries of needing to raise the minimum wage are just empty populism and nothing else. Very, very few workers actually make minimum wage. The majority of the those 6 million people are teenagers or restaurant servers making tips.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Arkaign
2% of the US Population is 6 million people, not exactly insubstantial.

Considering the vast majority are young workers, it is not all that substantial.

http://www.cepr.net/publications/labor_markets_2005_05.pdf

Less than one in five are under the age of 20

I would also guess that it's probably more like 10-20% of the US workforce that is working either at minimum wage, or within 1 dollar of it (MC-Raises). I had a friend who worked his ass off at Target for a few years, and only got occassional 25-cent raises.

 

[Craig234]

The unemployment rate tends to decrease when minimum wages increase occur.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Arkaign
2% of the US Population is 6 million people, not exactly insubstantial.

Considering the vast majority are young workers, it is not all that substantial.

http://www.cepr.net/publications/labor_markets_2005_05.pdf

Less than one in five are under the age of 20

I would also guess that it's probably more like 10-20% of the US workforce that is working either at minimum wage, or within 1 dollar of it (MC-Raises). I had a friend who worked his ass off at Target for a few years, and only got occassional 25-cent raises.

linkage

25% are teenagers, about 50% under 25.

As far as your friend goes, why did he continue working at target for years? Working at target or any other similar retail store is not a career. It is a job that can be performed by just about anyone.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Arkaign
2% of the US Population is 6 million people, not exactly insubstantial.

Considering the vast majority are young workers, it is not all that substantial.

http://www.cepr.net/publications/labor_markets_2005_05.pdf

Less than one in five are under the age of 20

I would also guess that it's probably more like 10-20% of the US workforce that is working either at minimum wage, or within 1 dollar of it (MC-Raises). I had a friend who worked his ass off at Target for a few years, and only got occassional 25-cent raises.

This says that roughly 1/4 of the minimum wage workers are teenagers and about half are under 25. That's not exactly a vast majority but it certainly is a large percentage.

This paper shows that only about 30% of minimum wage workers live in households that are at or below the poverty line. Why take in all the negatives of a minimum wage increase that only goes to help 0.6% of the work force?

 

[1prophet]

What is the impact of increasing the minimum wage and its effect on making illegal workers more desirable by employers?

 

[Arkaign]

Sounds like rich corporate crybaby-talk to me

No matter who's statistics you accept, there are still millions of people on minimum wage, and there are two further things to think about.

Most minimum wage jobs are at corporate establishments that could certainly afford to cut back on some 100 million dollar corporate wages to treat their employees a bit better.

Also, by having workers that make more money, they're more likely to SPEND more money, the whole concept of capitalism

Also, previous minimum-wage hikes have not been disastrous to the economy or to the people trying to support themselves and their families. Better than just having them sit at home collecting welfare.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Why do so many on the left call for a minimum wage increase? I realize it's a cool term to throw around and sounds like it would be helping everyone but it doesn't seem like the best tool for the job. What I find even worse is the calls for raising the national minimum wage as opposed to just regional increases. I don't see how that makes much sense considering cost of living is different in each part of the country. The call for higher minimum wage is generally done by citizens in urban areas where the cost of living is higher.

Why given all the negatives of minimum wage increases (slight inflation, lower employment, harder for small businesses, etc.) would you want to use it for anti-poverty? Wouldn't it make much more sense to use something that was designed to fight poverty like the EITC?

If someone could help illuminate the reasons for a minimum wage increase as opposed to an increase in the EITC, that may be helpful.

Because the employer should pay a living wage, not the government subsidizing them it with EITC.

 

[fitzov]

Originally posted by: 1prophet
What is the impact of increasing the minimum wage and its effect on making illegal workers more desirable by employers?

If they're already paying people under the table below min wage, why would it matter what min wage is?