Military Weapons for Law Enforcement?

[unokitty]

I don't believe people trained to kill are the best to protect and serve. Those are often opposing objectives with vastly different rules. Unless Americans prefer being treated like Iraqis or Afghans. Maybe we do.

You might want to talk to David Koresh about that... Oh wait, you can't talk to David, or any of the other 82, that the Feds killed in Waco.

You can however talk to the man that was the local sheriff, Jack Harwell.

"Jack Harwell, Sheriff of McLennan County, has gone on record describing Koresh as a man who had several times willingly complied with the requests of law enforcement personnel, and who had never been convicted of any type of crime. On one occasion, when the legality of a modified weapon was questioned by a neighbor, Koresh had even brought it in to the Sheriff’s office for an opinion."

He went so far as to say words to the effect that "I don't understand why the Feds had to come here with Tanks and Machine Guns. Anytime, I wanted to talk with David, I would call him up. And, the next time he was in town, he would stop by the office."

Don't misunderstand me. Koresh was crazy. But he was never convicted of a crime. And he had never demonstrated violent behaviour prior to the Feds showing up...

Then again, providing Law Enforcement with military weapons could also be considered crazy... And many of those people do have a history of exhibiting violent behaviors...


Uno

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

The Janet Reno mentality is not only alive and well....it's thriving.

Pogo was right...we have met the enemy and he is us.

 

[unokitty]

The retards sure are coming out of the wood works on this one. I doubt all police will be issued military rifles.

O but you think you're so tough that you don't need police. Yet I doubt any one of you bitches would walk down a bad neighborhood alone in the dark. Dumbass, a lot more places would be like that without law, and there would be no laws if there was no one to enforce it. .

I spent 15 months and 28 days working nights in a Jungle. Alone on a perimeter post with my sentry dog, a 16, a 45, and a radio that, often times, didn't work.

Perhaps if you had had that experience, you wouldn't feel a need for police that can't even configure their own assault rifles correctly either.

More on topic, providing advanced weaponry to people that don't have the knowledge or training to utilize it, doesn't increase anyone’s security.

Uno
Sentry Dog Handler
US Army '69-'71

 

[Vic Vega]

The retards sure are coming out of the wood works on this one. I doubt all police will be issued military rifles.

Not to mention how about checking out some facts on how many people die each year in some of these bigger cities compared to Afghan/Iraq.

O but you think you're so tough that you don't need police. Yet I doubt any one of you bitches would walk down a bad neighborhood alone in the dark. Dumbass, a lot more places would be like that without law, and there would be no laws if there was no one to enforce it.

Bunch of fucking tools, every last one of you. You're all nothing but sheep. If it's cool to hate on it you do. Yet none of you would have the balls to actually do that job even though I already know some of you morons will say you have. But hey it's the internet and I'm Bill Gates.

 

[davmat787]

I don't believe people trained to kill are the best to protect and serve. Those are often opposing objectives with vastly different rules. Unless Americans prefer being treated like Iraqis or Afghans. Maybe we do.

Surely a group with high rates of PTSD is a great source for recruiting new police officers. :hmm:

 

[trenchfoot]

I spent 15 months and 28 days working nights in a Jungle. Alone on a perimeter post with my sentry dog, a 16, a 45, and a radio that, often times, didn't work.

Perhaps if you had had that experience, you wouldn't feel a need for police that can't even configure their own assault rifles correctly either.

More on topic, providing advanced weaponry to people that don't have the knowledge or training to utilize it, doesn't increase anyone’s security.

Uno
Sentry Dog Handler
US Army '69-'71

OK, you brought back a flood of memories for me. Here's one dealing with a hand cranking land line.

I'm first up for the night watch. I get issued a field phone and told to drag a line out to the forward OP because all the walkie talkies were issued out to the rovers. So I set myself up with the comm, check in and hunker down, watching how things miraculously appear and disappear in the dark. So I finally see what I think are real humans trying not to look that way navigating a ditch and coming my way. I'm about to call it in when that frick'in phone just about rang off the hook. I forgot to adjust the ringer volume down! Fuuuuuck me! The immediate quiet after the first ring was deafening. Those ghosts stopped in midstep, crouched even lower and slowly retreated backwards, still facing my traitorous and now helmeted and violently unwired phone. I kept a bead on them and struggled with this intense desire to didi but kept sighting over the barrel until I couldn't see them any more. And then I had to rewire the phone in the dark, call in, fast crawl out and never ever told anybody there what really happened.

Funny now but terrifying then.

 

[OutHouse]

You might want to talk to David Koresh about that... Oh wait, you can't talk to David, or any of the other 82, that the Feds killed in Waco.

You can however talk to the man that was the local sheriff, Jack Harwell.

"Jack Harwell, Sheriff of McLennan County, has gone on record describing Koresh as a man who had several times willingly complied with the requests of law enforcement personnel, and who had never been convicted of any type of crime. On one occasion, when the legality of a modified weapon was questioned by a neighbor, Koresh had even brought it in to the Sheriff’s office for an opinion."

He went so far as to say words to the effect that "I don't understand why the Feds had to come here with Tanks and Machine Guns. Anytime, I wanted to talk with David, I would call him up. And, the next time he was in town, he would stop by the office."

Don't misunderstand me. Koresh was crazy. But he was never convicted of a crime. And he had never demonstrated violent behaviour prior to the Feds showing up...

Then again, providing Law Enforcement with military weapons could also be considered crazy... And many of those people do have a history of exhibiting violent behaviors...


Uno

That whole thing still pisses me off along with ruby ridge. Reno is a murdering bitch.

 

[OutHouse]

OK, you brought back a flood of memories for me. Here's one dealing with a hand cranking land line.

I'm first up for the night watch. I get issued a field phone and told to drag a line out to the forward OP because all the walkie talkies were issued out to the rovers. So I set myself up with the comm, check in and hunker down, watching how things miraculously appear and disappear in the dark. So I finally see what I think are real humans trying not to look that way navigating a ditch and coming my way. I'm about to call it in when that frick'in phone just about rang off the hook. I forgot to adjust the ringer volume down! Fuuuuuck me! The immediate quiet after the first ring was deafening. Those ghosts stopped in midstep, crouched even lower and slowly retreated backwards, still facing my traitorous and now helmeted and violently unwired phone. I kept a bead on them and struggled with this intense desire to didi but kept sighting over the barrel until I couldn't see them any more. And then I had to rewire the phone in the dark, call in, fast crawl out and never ever told anybody there what really happened.

Funny now but terrifying then.

My story is the opposite panama 1989 im pulling guard duty in a pos shelter of plywood and sandbags and its pouring rain. The rain stops and its dead quiet as in sitting there staring at a wall of green jungle i hear the tell tale sound of a prc radio and then spanish. It was very faint but i heard it. I was being watched... called it in and a mobile fireteam came screaming in with their hummer and two PDF soldiers take off about 75 yards from me and haul ass into the jungle.

 

[JEDIYoda]

*Maybe is a highly trained former TSA agent...

 

[Zodiark1593]

THIS

A lot of anti-gun people will say that gun nuts watch too many movies and dream about killing imaginary enemies. And a lot of them definitely do, but I rarely hear the same argument about police, who not only watch the same movies and have the same dreams of being heroes, but use tax money to play these fantasies out. Some towns in the US have APCs for f**k's sake.They are literally trained to kill and the police are not. In theory and presumably in practice some of this can be trained out of them when they join civilian police forces.Tone down the rage, son. Nobody said we don't need police and in general being a police officer doesn't require much courage. These are cops, the huge majority will never see a fire fight. It's a relatively safe job. They are not military, the majority of whom will (these days). Two different beasts; stop confusing military and police. You're part of the problem if you don't know the difference.

Yes, the police and the military are two different beasts, one being America's sword and shield, and the other, enforcing civilian law. The means used to accomplish their respective goals naturally differ under most circumstances. However, there have been (rare) instances where the police were heavily outgunned. For these purposes, SWAT is normally called in, though within the time it takes for SWAT to deploy, the police are under a level of mercy from enemy combatants. One incident I refer to is the North Hollywood Shootout.

In my opinion, regardless of rarity, the unthinkable happens, and I think police should be better able to react and put a stop to these sort of threats as quickly as possible. This includes advanced weapons training and tactics as well.

 

[Zodiark1593]

THIS

A lot of anti-gun people will say that gun nuts watch too many movies and dream about killing imaginary enemies. And a lot of them definitely do, but I rarely hear the same argument about police, who not only watch the same movies and have the same dreams of being heroes, but use tax money to play these fantasies out. Some towns in the US have APCs for f**k's sake.They are literally trained to kill and the police are not. In theory and presumably in practice some of this can be trained out of them when they join civilian police forces.Tone down the rage, son. Nobody said we don't need police and in general being a police officer doesn't require much courage. These are cops, the huge majority will never see a fire fight. It's a relatively safe job. They are not military, the majority of whom will (these days). Two different beasts; stop confusing military and police. You're part of the problem if you don't know the difference.

Yes, the police and the military are two different beasts, one being America's sword and shield, and the other, enforcing civilian law. The means used to accomplish their respective goals naturally differ under most circumstances. However, there have been (rare) instances where the police were heavily outgunned. For these purposes, SWAT is normally called in, though within the time it takes for SWAT to deploy, the police are under a level of mercy from enemy combatants. One incident I refer to is the North Hollywood Shootout.

In my opinion, regardless of rarity, the unthinkable happens, and I think police should be better able to react and put a stop to these sort of threats as quickly as possible. This includes advanced weapons training and tactics as well.

First though, corruption and such needs to be weeded out and minimized, fix the integrity of the police before better arming them.

 

[mistercrabby]

I live in a semi-rural/suburban area where the local cops are my friends, love my family as much as I do and are quite well trained. I hope they never need the sort of firepower the urban cops need, but they have it. The county deputies have it tougher as they have a much more diverse socio-economic area to patrol. Again, true professionals who exemplify pride, integrity and guts. They have a tough job and often get a paper plate of grief for it. Unfortuntately, not every community is equally well served. LA and Chicago have serious integrity issues with some of their cops and leaders. You can't generalize. Like with our military, the vast majority are loyal americans, well trained and put their butts on the line for all of us. Still some don't live up to that standard. That shouldn't tarnish the respect we should have for them, anymore than the few bad cops should for the force overall.

Having said that, of course these guys should know their equipment. As to the judgement call of what weapons they need, that is very situational. We'd rather err on their side than on the bad guy's, right?

 

[unokitty]

Having said that, of course these guys should know their equipment. As to the judgement call of what weapons they need, that is very situational. We'd rather err on their side than on the bad guy's, right?

You are entitled to your opinion, but this interactive map indicates that that judgement you refer to has been lacking in more than a few situations. At times, with fatal consequences.

As Forbes has observed:
"The War on Terror is spilling over into the War on Drugs, and the civil liberties of ordinary Americans ... are trampled on in the process. The militarization of police forces is troubling for many reasons.

For one thing, police aren’t soldiers and lack the training actual military personnel receive. Police departments are also not the military, and may lack the discipline and oversight. Elected sheriffs are not always as concerned with upholding the law so much as they are concerned with perceptions of being tough-on-crime. Finally, police are not waging an actual war."


Police aren't soldiers. Law enforcement isn't war. Allowing your local LE to dress up like soldiers doesn't change that...

Uno