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Military going to shoot down broken space probe

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Originally posted by: maddogchen
so options are:
1. to leave it and have it sprew toxic fuel over several hundred miles of earth
2. shoot it down and spread debris over space?

worst case scenarios:
1. toxic fuel rains down on a major city- hundreds to thousands affected.
2. space debris damages space launches killing several dozen astronauts.

Someone has to make the tough decisions. I say option 2.

The issue here has nothing to do with the failing Satellite at all, hundreds have fallen out of the sky with no major issues.

The issue here is the new United States Policy of false Information Minister like we complained about with the Iraq Information Minister.

The U.S. now spews false information on a daily basis and Americans are OK with it.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: maddogchen
so options are:
1. to leave it and have it sprew toxic fuel over several hundred miles of earth
2. shoot it down and spread debris over space?

worst case scenarios:
1. toxic fuel rains down on a major city- hundreds to thousands affected.
2. space debris damages space launches killing several dozen astronauts.

Someone has to make the tough decisions. I say option 2.

The issue here has nothing to do with the failing Satellite at all, hundreds have fallen out of the sky with no major issues.

The issue here is the new United States Policy of false Information Minister like we complained about with the Iraq Information Minister.

The U.S. now spews false information on a daily basis and Americans are OK with it.

😕 wtf are you talking about!?
 
Originally posted by: Brovane

That is not accurate. Your balloons etc.are not going to present the same type of target as a MIRV bus or the warheads themselves. The MIRV bus is going to start dropping warheads within 700km of the intended target. So before a standing MIRV starts dropping warheads off its bus it is within range of long range ICBM systems. Also the MIRV bus is extremely limited in its maneuvering ability before it starts dropping off warheads one at time. The balloons or decoys dropped off during this phase will not maintain the same entry speed into the atmosphere. If you drop off say 10 decoys during the apex of a missile trajectory the ABM system will easily be able to determine that they are fake.

A dedicated ABM system is a layered defense consisting of both long range and short range defense missiles with multiple opportunities to engage a ICBM or ballistic missile system before the target is reached. That is also why other countries besides the US are working on ABM systems like India and Russia.

What are you talking about? I don't think you understand the purpose of the decoys and/or when they are deployed. They aren't intended for atmospheric re-entry. They are only for the mid course guidance phase, entirely used while all parts of the ICBM are in space because that's when ICBM's are the easiest and most practical to take out. Once the warheads are re-entering the atmosphere the decoys have long since served their purpose and are discarded. After atmospheric re-entry you're talking about a terminal phase intercept, which is both geographically and mechanically extremely difficult.

If you're interested in learning more about how these things work and the difficulties presented to any missile shield program I have some articles I can send you.
 
It isn't that hard to pick out a "live" RV.

1.) The IR signature of an actual nuclear warhead is quite distinguishable against a very cold background of space, because the fissile material in the warhead generates a unique internal signature (remember, plutonium is warm to the touch). (Mid-Course); oh I wonder why we put a IR seeker on our Kill vehicle....

2.) As the targets start to enter the Earth's atmosphere; it means the much lighter decoys will decelerate much more rapidly than the actual, much heavier, warheads.

So in all, to defeat ABM, you would need a decoy that pretty much for a multitude of reasons is the exact same shape and weight of the real warhead.

With that in mind, why carry decoys, when you could use that precious throw weight to toss an actual warhead instead?

Of course since a ABM missiles do not work that is why the Japanese, Indians and Russians all have either deployed or developing ABM missiles.
 
The decoys for the past twenty years use depleted uranium and will look and feel every bit the same as the real deal. There is a lot of excess capacity for throw weight on icbm's and slbm's these days.

This thing is going to literally shred when the asat weapon gets hold of it. If there is no direct hit on the hydrazine tank(s) then they will still make it down to earth. The debri may linger in the atmosphere for a year or less, but it definitely is moving too slow to stay in permanent orbit. The threat of lingering debris is clearly being overstated.
 
Originally posted by: MadRat
The decoys for the past twenty years use depleted uranium and will look and feel every bit the same as the real deal. There is a lot of excess capacity for throw weight on icbm's and slbm's these days.

This thing is going to literally shred when the asat weapon gets hold of it. If there is no direct hit on the hydrazine tank(s) then they will still make it down to earth. The debri may linger in the atmosphere for a year or less, but it definitely is moving too slow to stay in permanent orbit. The threat of lingering debris is clearly being overstated.

The excess capacity on ICMB and SLBM's these days is because of the removal of warheads so the missile is no longer a MIRV. If you take a missile that was originally a MIRV with 8 warheads and remove 7 warheads then you have a lot of excess throw weight on the missile. Now at this point you could setup 7 decoy warheads because you would have the excess weight to design a decoy that had the same mass and shape as a real warhead.
 
Originally posted by: Brovane
It isn't that hard to pick out a "live" RV.

1.) The IR signature of an actual nuclear warhead is quite distinguishable against a very cold background of space, because the fissile material in the warhead generates a unique internal signature (remember, plutonium is warm to the touch). (Mid-Course); oh I wonder why we put a IR seeker on our Kill vehicle....

2.) As the targets start to enter the Earth's atmosphere; it means the much lighter decoys will decelerate much more rapidly than the actual, much heavier, warheads.

So in all, to defeat ABM, you would need a decoy that pretty much for a multitude of reasons is the exact same shape and weight of the real warhead.

With that in mind, why carry decoys, when you could use that precious throw weight to toss an actual warhead instead?

Of course since a ABM missiles do not work that is why the Japanese, Indians and Russians all have either deployed or developing ABM missiles.

You are completely missing the point, and you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to decoys. Nowhere close.

The balloons they use for decoys (as well as the warheads themselves) are covered by a heated material so they all appear to be the same temperature. This makes the use of IR extremely difficult. Not impossible, but very difficult. The balloons also do NOT need to be the same weight as the warhead. In fact, the most difficult thing about the balloons is getting them to spin like real warheads, but that has been done as well. Your argument that decoys need to be the same size, weight, and shape as real warheads is simply false.

Once the warheads and decoys are re-entering the atmosphere the entire purpose of the decoy is done. It's only only purpose is to get the warheads through the mid course phase in space. The reasons for this are obvious. In space you can have relatively few BMD systems that can cover a large area (sort of like how sattelites can cover hundreds or thousands of miles of area due to their large LOS from being up so high). Once the warheads are coming back down you are reliant upon terminal phase interceptors which due to range and LOS limitations have to be stationed somewhere close to the target. This means that you can cover all of America with relatively few mid course interceptors, but to cover all of America with terminal phase interceptors would cost an absurd amount of cash. (that, and a plunging ICBM warhead is really hard to hit and even if you do there's no guarantee you will destroy it.)

Finally you are mistaking limited theater BMD for the sort of national defense shield that the US is developing. Theater BMD can be used to cover limited areas with high value targets, largely negating the difficulties seen by national level terminal phase intercept. There is a BMD system that we could set up specifically against certain rogue nations like North Korea or possibly Iran, but that would most likely be a boost phase intercept, a far easier proposition.
 
The fuel on the satellite is hydrazine. Which in an interesting coincidence is the same atmospheric contaminant present on a planet they visited in Star Trek Enterprise in an episode that re-aired about a month ago, which the ship's plasma caused to ignite, scorching away all the inhabitants within a 500 mile radius.
 
Would'nt it be bad for all of us if there was plutonium onboard used for the energy source....

Makes you wonder wtf is onboard this thing to be so persistant on shooting it down.
 
CNN Breaking News

A missile has hit an errant spy satellite about 140 miles above Earth, a U.S. official says
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Brovane
It isn't that hard to pick out a "live" RV.

1.) The IR signature of an actual nuclear warhead is quite distinguishable against a very cold background of space, because the fissile material in the warhead generates a unique internal signature (remember, plutonium is warm to the touch). (Mid-Course); oh I wonder why we put a IR seeker on our Kill vehicle....

2.) As the targets start to enter the Earth's atmosphere; it means the much lighter decoys will decelerate much more rapidly than the actual, much heavier, warheads.

So in all, to defeat ABM, you would need a decoy that pretty much for a multitude of reasons is the exact same shape and weight of the real warhead.

With that in mind, why carry decoys, when you could use that precious throw weight to toss an actual warhead instead?

Of course since a ABM missiles do not work that is why the Japanese, Indians and Russians all have either deployed or developing ABM missiles.

You are completely missing the point, and you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to decoys. Nowhere close.

The balloons they use for decoys (as well as the warheads themselves) are covered by a heated material so they all appear to be the same temperature. This makes the use of IR extremely difficult. Not impossible, but very difficult. The balloons also do NOT need to be the same weight as the warhead. In fact, the most difficult thing about the balloons is getting them to spin like real warheads, but that has been done as well. Your argument that decoys need to be the same size, weight, and shape as real warheads is simply false.

Once the warheads and decoys are re-entering the atmosphere the entire purpose of the decoy is done. It's only only purpose is to get the warheads through the mid course phase in space. The reasons for this are obvious. In space you can have relatively few BMD systems that can cover a large area (sort of like how sattelites can cover hundreds or thousands of miles of area due to their large LOS from being up so high). Once the warheads are coming back down you are reliant upon terminal phase interceptors which due to range and LOS limitations have to be stationed somewhere close to the target. This means that you can cover all of America with relatively few mid course interceptors, but to cover all of America with terminal phase interceptors would cost an absurd amount of cash. (that, and a plunging ICBM warhead is really hard to hit and even if you do there's no guarantee you will destroy it.)

Finally you are mistaking limited theater BMD for the sort of national defense shield that the US is developing. Theater BMD can be used to cover limited areas with high value targets, largely negating the difficulties seen by national level terminal phase intercept. There is a BMD system that we could set up specifically against certain rogue nations like North Korea or possibly Iran, but that would most likely be a boost phase intercept, a far easier proposition.


Well it appears that we have one satellite shot down.

So what is used to heat this material? Also how does this material mimic the temperature distribution of the live warhead? Do you have any reference material talking talking about this?

you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to decoys. Nowhere close.

Also what are your qualifications to justify this statement?
 
Originally posted by: Brovane
Well it appears that we have one satellite shot down.

So what is used to heat this material? Also how does this material mimic the temperature distribution of the live warhead? Do you have any reference material talking talking about this?

you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to decoys. Nowhere close.

Also what are your qualifications to justify this statement?

I sure do. Check MIT and NASA's analysis here. specifically check pages 163-165 on the temperature characteristics of warheads and their decoys. I'll skip to the conclusion for you: the thermal characteristics of a warhead can be easily masked. Also check page 59 for an in depth explanation of why decoys do not need to be the same weight as warheads and the defensive challenges that they represent even for a high atmosphere intercept. (note: these are article pages not Adobe Acrobat pages. To get to the right article page is about 25 pages ahead on Adobe)

My qualifications to justify my statement are that you've said several things about ICBM warhead decoys that are demonstrably false.

EDIT: I don't mean to talk (too much) shit, but I'm not sure where you got your information from regarding the methods and nature of NMD.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Brovane
Well it appears that we have one satellite shot down.

So what is used to heat this material? Also how does this material mimic the temperature distribution of the live warhead? Do you have any reference material talking talking about this?

you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to decoys. Nowhere close.

Also what are your qualifications to justify this statement?

I sure do. Check MIT and NASA's analysis here. specifically check pages 163-165 on the temperature characteristics of warheads and their decoys. I'll skip to the conclusion for you: the thermal characteristics of a warhead can be easily masked. Also check page 59 for an in depth explanation of why decoys do not need to be the same weight as warheads and the defensive challenges that they represent even for a high atmosphere intercept. (note: these are article pages not Adobe Acrobat pages. To get to the right article page is about 25 pages ahead on Adobe)

My qualifications to justify my statement are that you've said several things about ICBM warhead decoys that are demonstrably false.

EDIT: I don't mean to talk (too much) shit, but I'm not sure where you got your information from regarding the methods and nature of NMD.

This entire reference material is suspect because the document was created by the "Union of Concerned Scientist" is a left leaning organization who's stated objective is against ABM systems and the militarization of space. So basically everything in this document is slanted and can be taken with a grain of salt because it was created by people with a specific agenda who think that ABM systems are useless.

All the good data on this subject is going to be classified because of national security. Hopefully the current system will never be tested. However what is the alternative? To watch helplessly as rogue nations nuclear tipped missile impacts into Los Angeles? I would rather have that ABM system that gives me a chance to shoot it down.
 
Originally posted by: Brovane
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Brovane
Well it appears that we have one satellite shot down.

So what is used to heat this material? Also how does this material mimic the temperature distribution of the live warhead? Do you have any reference material talking talking about this?

you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to decoys. Nowhere close.

Also what are your qualifications to justify this statement?

I sure do. Check MIT and NASA's analysis here. specifically check pages 163-165 on the temperature characteristics of warheads and their decoys. I'll skip to the conclusion for you: the thermal characteristics of a warhead can be easily masked. Also check page 59 for an in depth explanation of why decoys do not need to be the same weight as warheads and the defensive challenges that they represent even for a high atmosphere intercept. (note: these are article pages not Adobe Acrobat pages. To get to the right article page is about 25 pages ahead on Adobe)

My qualifications to justify my statement are that you've said several things about ICBM warhead decoys that are demonstrably false.

EDIT: I don't mean to talk (too much) shit, but I'm not sure where you got your information from regarding the methods and nature of NMD.

This entire reference material is suspect because the document was created by the "Union of Concerned Scientist" is a left leaning organization who's stated objective is against ABM systems and the militarization of space. So basically everything in this document is slanted and can be taken with a grain of salt because it was created by people with a specific agenda who think that ABM systems are useless.

All the good data on this subject is going to be classified because of national security. Hopefully the current system will never be tested. However what is the alternative? To watch helplessly as rogue nations nuclear tipped missile impacts into Los Angeles? I would rather have that ABM system that gives me a chance to shoot it down.

If you believe their data is wrong, please point me to another source that provides a credible counterpoint. If not, you're wasting your time attacking the source. I would actually very much like to see where you got your information that told you that decoys needed to be the size/weight/shape of a regular warhead. You can disagree with their conclusions all you want, but all we were talking about was the fundamental facts of the issue. Your contention that decoys needed to be just like regular warheads is obviously false as in that article they discuss real decoys that have been developed that are nothing of the sort.

They think ABM systems are useless because they are. (at least in the way we're making one). If you want me to send you half a dozen other articles about why our system is total crap I can do that too if you have JSTOR access.

Your argument for NMD is presenting a false choice. You give us the option of sitting and watching a nuke tipped missile destroy a city or have a chance at shooting it down. In reality the choices are much different, and far more difficult. The CIA (and many other agencies) have found that a ballistic missile is one of the least likely ways a rogue nation would choose to attack us. There are many other methods of nuking American cities that would not be so obviously attached to the state in question. (no state would actually want to be attached to a nuclear attack on us, as it would ensure their total destruction)

With this in mind, we could spend those billions we are spending on NMD, and apply it to programs that actually defend us against credible threats. We could use the money to buy equipment to scan ship containers, to tighten border security, etc. All these would make us far safer from nuclear attack then some bogus NMD system that is so easily overwhelmed.
 
There is lots of stuff there, but it's mostly just advertisements for their various systems. The problems that NMD has are nearly always glossed over in both reports by the companies and by the administration. None of these tests address these problems. Hitting a missile is fine and all, and it's certainly a vital first step, but none of our systems address the problems that decoys and terminal phase range limitations present. To be honest I have no idea how these problems could ever be overcome outside of some sort of incredible advance in discrimination technology that I am unaware of.

In my opinion we should be going for boost phase NMD or nothing at all. Our current system is complete and utter shit.
 
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