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Military Dilemma (Both Situtationally and Ethically)
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Ozoned
Diamond Member
This is just my humble opinion. I certainly could be wrong.
The key thing to remember when you enlist is that you are only a tiny link in a big chain, and that what you think will not matter. You will do what you are told, when you are told, and how you are told. The people that make the decisions, about the things that you feel are close to your heart, are supposed to make them with the best outcome in mind. Doesn't always work that way. Rarely works that way.
You will not find any individual glory serving in the modern military, but you may find some pride in being a part of a well oiled machine.
In closing, you don't have to join the military to serve your country. There are many other ways...
I retired with 20 years of service, and if I had a chance to do it again, I wouldn't.
The key thing to remember when you enlist is that you are only a tiny link in a big chain, and that what you think will not matter. You will do what you are told, when you are told, and how you are told. The people that make the decisions, about the things that you feel are close to your heart, are supposed to make them with the best outcome in mind. Doesn't always work that way. Rarely works that way.
You will not find any individual glory serving in the modern military, but you may find some pride in being a part of a well oiled machine.
In closing, you don't have to join the military to serve your country. There are many other ways...
I retired with 20 years of service, and if I had a chance to do it again, I wouldn't.
Jaskalas
Lifer
This is entirely true.
On another note, I would not be able to serve today for I am far too judgmental on our current leadership ? both politically and militarily. I would be acting against my judgment as another cog in the wheel. Perhaps you can put yours aside, but that isn?t me.
I do not feel that simply adding manpower to the military accomplishes what needs to be done. This isn?t as simple as WW2, or like anything you?ve read in the history books. The world has evolved, but I fear the bloated bureaucracy in Washington is behind the times and doesn?t have a clue on how you fight an ideology.
What good is our military when we?re off fighting in foreign countries when the next act of war by our enemy is incubated right here in our homeland? We are host to a parasite and we think that by hitting someone else we can abolish it. Utter stupidity is not resolved by more cogs in the wheel.
Blackjack200
Lifer
Two of my best friends from childhood, my brother, and me all enlisted in the United States Marine Corps between 2000 and 2001. Our reasons were very similar to yours, though this was before 9/11 and (obviously) the Iraq war, so we didn't deal with that dynamic of it. My brother joined first, the pride of the organization appealed to him, and he wanted to force a personal transformation. Even though I'm older, I enlisted about a year later, because I was not doing well in school, and the few times I got to see him, he seemed confident and strong. I was nervous about boot camp, so I convinced one of the friends, who was also struggling in school, to join with me. The Marine corps has a buddy program where they will guarantee that you and a friend are put into the same platoon at boot camp. We both signed up for the DEP, immersed ourselves in Marine Corps culture, went running at 6:00 in the morning etc. etc. etc. My other childhood friend had moved to Ohio, and unbeknown to us, had also joined the Marine Corps.
I was the first one to get out: before I even shipped to boot camp, I dislocated my shoulder. I was terribly disappointed, and tried to convince the doctor to sign off on me anyway. He refused. When I told the recruiter, he flew into a rage, told me that I had no right to leave the program, that I was lying about my shoulder, and that he would get a doctor to certify my health. I called my brother, who told me that the DEP contract I had signed didn't mean anything, and that I had no obligations. I left the DEP, leaving my friend to go to boot camp by himself (something I've carried on my conscience). I had dropped out of school after joining the DEP, so I went back to live at home. I worked dead end jobs for 6 months before my parents told me that if I didn't do something productive they would start charging me rent. I was 21 and it looked like my life was going nowhere. I applied to a bunch of state schools that all rejected me, which scared the crap out of me, I finally enrolled at county college, and realizing that it was likely my last shot at school, earned my Associates with a 3.9 GPA. With my improved transcript I did finally get into state school, where I did nearly as well, and I finally ended up with a satisfying job in the financial industry.
My friend from Ohio was the second one to get out of the Marines. On August 3, 2005 he was riding in an amphibious assault vehicle in Haditha Iraq. He died along with the other 13 Marines in the vehicle from an IED attack. There were almost no remains to ship home. I attended the closed casket funeral, and to this day, facing his mother is the most difficult thing I've ever had to do. Both his parents were against the war from the beginning, and have since campaigned against it.
My brother was the third one to get out of the Marines. He received his discharge in September 2005, and immediately enrolled in College. He is on schedule to graduate this year. The difference in age and life experience between him and his classmates has alienated him to a degree, but he has performed very well. He has confided in my that he feels his 5 years in the USMC were a total waste. He feels very antagonistic toward the Marine Corps, and that feeling was shared by many of his Marine friends. The war in Iraq has enraged him, and he is a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War.
My friend that went to boot camp without me is still in the Marines. He has satisfied his service obligation, but recently volunteered to deploy to Iraq again (it will be his 4th deployment). He has mixed feelings about the War, generally opposes it, but feels a strong sense of duty to the other servicemen on the front lines. After going to boot camp, he enrolled in school again (he joined the reserves) and completely turned his academic performance around. He has told me that he is considering becoming an officer after he graduates. He blames himself for the death of our friend. As the person who talked him into joining, I will feel responsible if anything happens to him.
I guess my advice would be that this is a messy, tough decision. I won't give you my opinion, but to me the biggest concern is that the decision is essentially irreversible.
I was the first one to get out: before I even shipped to boot camp, I dislocated my shoulder. I was terribly disappointed, and tried to convince the doctor to sign off on me anyway. He refused. When I told the recruiter, he flew into a rage, told me that I had no right to leave the program, that I was lying about my shoulder, and that he would get a doctor to certify my health. I called my brother, who told me that the DEP contract I had signed didn't mean anything, and that I had no obligations. I left the DEP, leaving my friend to go to boot camp by himself (something I've carried on my conscience). I had dropped out of school after joining the DEP, so I went back to live at home. I worked dead end jobs for 6 months before my parents told me that if I didn't do something productive they would start charging me rent. I was 21 and it looked like my life was going nowhere. I applied to a bunch of state schools that all rejected me, which scared the crap out of me, I finally enrolled at county college, and realizing that it was likely my last shot at school, earned my Associates with a 3.9 GPA. With my improved transcript I did finally get into state school, where I did nearly as well, and I finally ended up with a satisfying job in the financial industry.
My friend from Ohio was the second one to get out of the Marines. On August 3, 2005 he was riding in an amphibious assault vehicle in Haditha Iraq. He died along with the other 13 Marines in the vehicle from an IED attack. There were almost no remains to ship home. I attended the closed casket funeral, and to this day, facing his mother is the most difficult thing I've ever had to do. Both his parents were against the war from the beginning, and have since campaigned against it.
My brother was the third one to get out of the Marines. He received his discharge in September 2005, and immediately enrolled in College. He is on schedule to graduate this year. The difference in age and life experience between him and his classmates has alienated him to a degree, but he has performed very well. He has confided in my that he feels his 5 years in the USMC were a total waste. He feels very antagonistic toward the Marine Corps, and that feeling was shared by many of his Marine friends. The war in Iraq has enraged him, and he is a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War.
My friend that went to boot camp without me is still in the Marines. He has satisfied his service obligation, but recently volunteered to deploy to Iraq again (it will be his 4th deployment). He has mixed feelings about the War, generally opposes it, but feels a strong sense of duty to the other servicemen on the front lines. After going to boot camp, he enrolled in school again (he joined the reserves) and completely turned his academic performance around. He has told me that he is considering becoming an officer after he graduates. He blames himself for the death of our friend. As the person who talked him into joining, I will feel responsible if anything happens to him.
I guess my advice would be that this is a messy, tough decision. I won't give you my opinion, but to me the biggest concern is that the decision is essentially irreversible.
sandorski
No Lifer
You're Married, you'll likely end up in Iraq, and even if you don't get killed you'll have more Emotional Issues to deal with on top of your Depression. Don't do it. I didn't even read your whole post because it's depressing to read, the last thing you need is to make such a decision when it sounds like you're on the edge of being Suicidal.
jackschmittusa
Diamond Member
I'll just give a couple of quick thoughts.
If you are already battling depression, then a tour in Iraq may severely aggravate your condition. If seeing death and destruction isn't depressing, then I don't know what is. There is also a possibility that you might return from a tour and feel that you really didn't make much of difference, so there will no satisfaction or nobility to your life experiment. (I enlisted in '68. In retrospect, I imagine that the entire U.S. military would have chugged along just fine if I had not.)
Your depression might make you a liability to your fellow soldiers.
Next month, I'll have been married for 35 years. I tend to think that our greatest bonds were formed in our early years together. We've been lucky I guess, to have strengthened them as the years passed, but the early years were the ones that made us best friends, comfortable lovers, etc. that laid the foundation. You'll likely give a lot of that up if you enlist now. And if you return physically or emotionally damaged?
Just mentally slap yourself and demand that you put your act together. Getting married was one life changing experience already, throwing yourself into a radical environment to see if it helps you is folly IMHO.
If you are already battling depression, then a tour in Iraq may severely aggravate your condition. If seeing death and destruction isn't depressing, then I don't know what is. There is also a possibility that you might return from a tour and feel that you really didn't make much of difference, so there will no satisfaction or nobility to your life experiment. (I enlisted in '68. In retrospect, I imagine that the entire U.S. military would have chugged along just fine if I had not.)
Your depression might make you a liability to your fellow soldiers.
Next month, I'll have been married for 35 years. I tend to think that our greatest bonds were formed in our early years together. We've been lucky I guess, to have strengthened them as the years passed, but the early years were the ones that made us best friends, comfortable lovers, etc. that laid the foundation. You'll likely give a lot of that up if you enlist now. And if you return physically or emotionally damaged?
Just mentally slap yourself and demand that you put your act together. Getting married was one life changing experience already, throwing yourself into a radical environment to see if it helps you is folly IMHO.
StageLeft
No Lifer
I didn't find your post depressing, but honest and I did read it.
You seem probably too smart to waste time at this point running around with grunts and bashing down doors along with a hundred thousand other people doing the same thing. Is there any other way you can serve without having to go to Iraq, which you likely would have to do? As mentioned above, I doubt that will cure depression.
What about joining the police force? That is a more direct, easy-to-sell way of serving the community, is a similar line of work and yet carries benefits such as not being away from your wife for a year at a time and not getting post traumatic stress disorder. I think the life of a cop is probably not a bad one.
You seem probably too smart to waste time at this point running around with grunts and bashing down doors along with a hundred thousand other people doing the same thing. Is there any other way you can serve without having to go to Iraq, which you likely would have to do? As mentioned above, I doubt that will cure depression.
What about joining the police force? That is a more direct, easy-to-sell way of serving the community, is a similar line of work and yet carries benefits such as not being away from your wife for a year at a time and not getting post traumatic stress disorder. I think the life of a cop is probably not a bad one.
There's always the Navy or Air Force. With all due respect to members of those services (including my father-in-law, a retired Master Chief), they don't face nearly the danger in Iraq that the ground-pounders in the Army and USMC do. I've also had several friends who've served in the Coast Guard. There's that option.
K1052
Elite Member
My friends that spent time in the various branches all agree that infidelity runs rampant and that there are a lot of divorces. Unless the OP's wife knew going into the marriage that he was thinking about making this kind of commitment it probably isn't advisable.
The Marines tried repeatedly to recruit me in my senior year of HS. I don't recall what I scored on the ASVAB but it must have been pretty decent. I even sat down with the recruiter a couple times to discuss the possibility of enlisting.
I would have given it more serious consideration however the military frowns on my orientation and that wasn't a compromise I was willing to make.
Lemon law
Lifer
To StepUp,
One can take two views of the question, a personal whats good for StepUp and also a view of whats good for the country. Neither of which have any easy answers. And given your qualifications, you can also consider the option of going in as an officer rather than an enlisted man. And as others have pointed out, you can pick and choose various MOS options that will almost ensure you will or will not end up in combat if the armed forces are engaged at combat at the time.
To tackle the whats good for the Country question, its a no brainer that you seem like a fine young man with good values. The US military needs as many people as possible that think about what they are doing and wonder about what impacts their actions will have on others.
But you will also be a very small cog in a larger machine forced to do what you think is stupid.
To tackle the whats good for StepUp question, I would advise doing your home work first. You can write your own ticket but only if you understand how not to get rubber stamped and shunted off into dead ends. You have a good start posting the question on P&N, but talking to as many non recruiter type service people as possible will broaden that base.
But at the end of the day, only you can make that decision.
One can take two views of the question, a personal whats good for StepUp and also a view of whats good for the country. Neither of which have any easy answers. And given your qualifications, you can also consider the option of going in as an officer rather than an enlisted man. And as others have pointed out, you can pick and choose various MOS options that will almost ensure you will or will not end up in combat if the armed forces are engaged at combat at the time.
To tackle the whats good for the Country question, its a no brainer that you seem like a fine young man with good values. The US military needs as many people as possible that think about what they are doing and wonder about what impacts their actions will have on others.
But you will also be a very small cog in a larger machine forced to do what you think is stupid.
To tackle the whats good for StepUp question, I would advise doing your home work first. You can write your own ticket but only if you understand how not to get rubber stamped and shunted off into dead ends. You have a good start posting the question on P&N, but talking to as many non recruiter type service people as possible will broaden that base.
But at the end of the day, only you can make that decision.
Siddhartha
Lifer
I took the MCATs and did really well. I got phone calls from every military branch offering very good sounding deals, medical school paid for, signing bonus, commision as a captain, cost of living bonuses, if I enlisted.
I did not want to join the military.
I did not want to join the military.
From someone who served active duty for 5 years (Army): If I was 20 again and was approached by a recruiter now (in 2007), hello no. It is very likely you will end up in Iraq and the truth is your government could care less about the welfare of soldiers. Just take this guy for example.
Wounded warriors face home-front battle with VA
Btw, this is the same Marine who was completely disfigured and recently married his finance. The truth is politicians and public care enough about the military to put magnetic ribbons on their cars, but not enough to support the evil socialist organization known as the VA.
Wounded warriors face home-front battle with VA
Btw, this is the same Marine who was completely disfigured and recently married his finance. The truth is politicians and public care enough about the military to put magnetic ribbons on their cars, but not enough to support the evil socialist organization known as the VA.
StageLeft
No Lifer
Marriage aside, I really, truly wonder how the hell parents go off somewhere and not want to just go AWOL. Do they love their kids less? Are they better men than I? I see my daughters about 360 days in a given year and cannot even fathom being away from them for months at a time or longer. Those without kids yet cannot appreciate how awful it must be saying good bye and "see you next year".
I would never do it unless I had to and that means the end of the world is nigh or there is truly nothing at all else I could be doing for employment and we'd all starve otherwise.
Sinsear
Diamond Member
7.5 years of active Army duty here. Went in after 4 years of college. Best decision I ever made. Period.
You have to decide for yourself.
Meh. Plenty of soldiers believe that Iraq qas not a huge threat to us; hell they probably never were. But removing Saddam was definitely a just thing to do. But you have to find out for yourself. Once you look em in the eye you'll see. It's real easy to be over here in the States and be anti or for it, and troll on message boards, but it's a different ballgame when you put your boots on the ground.
Good luck; think through all of your options. Make your decision based on what is best for you and your family. Not based on a friends or forums.
You have to decide for yourself.
Meh. Plenty of soldiers believe that Iraq qas not a huge threat to us; hell they probably never were. But removing Saddam was definitely a just thing to do. But you have to find out for yourself. Once you look em in the eye you'll see. It's real easy to be over here in the States and be anti or for it, and troll on message boards, but it's a different ballgame when you put your boots on the ground.
Good luck; think through all of your options. Make your decision based on what is best for you and your family. Not based on a friends or forums.
I'm going to modify a quote I've heard...
"The world is full of willing people. Some willing to throw their lives away, others willing to let them."
I have a similar upbringing to yours (w/o the depression) and throughout my 27 years I've never been able to understand *why* anyone volunteer to go to war? I understand that our military isn't going to disband just because I think it should, so the more young men that volunteer in my stead, the better!
"The world is full of willing people. Some willing to throw their lives away, others willing to let them."
I have a similar upbringing to yours (w/o the depression) and throughout my 27 years I've never been able to understand *why* anyone volunteer to go to war? I understand that our military isn't going to disband just because I think it should, so the more young men that volunteer in my stead, the better!
teclis1023
Golden Member
To the OP:
You need to find your motivation within yourself. Nobody else can do it for you. In the end, you're the only person that can whip yourself into shape.
You need to find your motivation within yourself. Nobody else can do it for you. In the end, you're the only person that can whip yourself into shape.
The story about your ASVAB scores reminds me of myself. And personally there were some things I appreciated about the military. But, in the end, what ruined it all for me was that I was not willing to let others to "think" for me. Oh and there's something we called the "Peter Principle", it states that you will rise to the point of your greatest incompetence; and there you will stay! I would have been so much better off if I had not joined. The military eventually broke me and it took 21, painful and dysfunctional, years to begin to recover. That grass "over there" might look green, but it's literally a mine field. Stay away!
The irony is that the Army is so desperate they'll even take relatively beat up "old guys" like me (I just turned 50, but I'm in good physical condition). They're even starting to accept people with a criminal record, as long as it's not for a violent crime. They just need warm bodies to wear the uniform and "pull the trigger". I'm certain you have more potential than that, or you wouldn't even be asking these questions.
The irony is that the Army is so desperate they'll even take relatively beat up "old guys" like me (I just turned 50, but I'm in good physical condition). They're even starting to accept people with a criminal record, as long as it's not for a violent crime. They just need warm bodies to wear the uniform and "pull the trigger". I'm certain you have more potential than that, or you wouldn't even be asking these questions.
If you want to help people, there are MUCH MUCH better ways than joining the military.
But honestly, if you even have to ask, it tells a lot about you. You are willing to ruin your marriage and become a drone, having any control over your life. You also don't mind becoming disfigured, dieing, or becoming more mentally unstable for a cause you don't believe in.
But honestly, if you even have to ask, it tells a lot about you. You are willing to ruin your marriage and become a drone, having any control over your life. You also don't mind becoming disfigured, dieing, or becoming more mentally unstable for a cause you don't believe in.
Fern
Elite Member
I strongly suggest you consider finishing college since you're in the last year.
I could be way off, but I think you could use a good dose of self-achievment/accomplishment. Getting your degree would represent finishing something you started.
Any way given your anti-war type feelings that you're considering the military as some kind of excuse for not finishing school? Some kind of "good thing to start" after you quit that may make you feel better?
If you could that, get that accomplished, it would also let you remain with your new wife and calm your parents a bit (if not make them happy you graduated as well).
Want to serve your country but are kind of antiwar? Well, AFAIK not everyone in the service has to do combat duties. The military needs other types as well. Perhaps after getting your degree you can join as an officer in something other than a combat role.
The military isn't the only way to serve either. State Dept? Coast Guard? I would say Peace Corps, but that mostly strikes me as helping people outside of the USA.
What about some type of charity work? I do a lot of that myself, can be very rewarding. There are many here who need help, whether elderly or poor whatever. Many charities have salary positions, pay's not great but that doesn't seem the important thing here.
What about a job in FEMA helping people here devastated by natural disasters etc..
There are many ways to serve. Given your depression and new wife I question if becoming some combat-type soldier is the correct thing for you.
Whatever you choose, good luck.
Fern
I could be way off, but I think you could use a good dose of self-achievment/accomplishment. Getting your degree would represent finishing something you started.
Any way given your anti-war type feelings that you're considering the military as some kind of excuse for not finishing school? Some kind of "good thing to start" after you quit that may make you feel better?
If you could that, get that accomplished, it would also let you remain with your new wife and calm your parents a bit (if not make them happy you graduated as well).
Want to serve your country but are kind of antiwar? Well, AFAIK not everyone in the service has to do combat duties. The military needs other types as well. Perhaps after getting your degree you can join as an officer in something other than a combat role.
The military isn't the only way to serve either. State Dept? Coast Guard? I would say Peace Corps, but that mostly strikes me as helping people outside of the USA.
What about some type of charity work? I do a lot of that myself, can be very rewarding. There are many here who need help, whether elderly or poor whatever. Many charities have salary positions, pay's not great but that doesn't seem the important thing here.
What about a job in FEMA helping people here devastated by natural disasters etc..
There are many ways to serve. Given your depression and new wife I question if becoming some combat-type soldier is the correct thing for you.
Whatever you choose, good luck.
Fern
shira
Diamond Member
If you want to and are willing to serve your country, then you should find some activity that you truly believe does serve your country. If you don't agree that the war in Iraq is valid or just, then joining the military wouldn't be that activity, would it?
The Peace Corps seems a worthwhile form of national service. However, considering that you're married, it might be a hardship, since the term of service is 27 months. Note also that the Peace Corps site says it's usually unable to accommodate those with recurrent major depression (but maybe you suffer only from dysthymia).
Another possibility is Americorps, website, which provides a broad array of opportunities to serve. Unfortunately, Americorps doesn't provide a living wage - it's essentially a volunteer organization.
It's unfortunate that the U.S. doesn't have a more focused plan that encourages young people to work in a national service capacity (and pays at least a modest wage). Time Magazine has an excellent article on the subject:
National Service
The Peace Corps seems a worthwhile form of national service. However, considering that you're married, it might be a hardship, since the term of service is 27 months. Note also that the Peace Corps site says it's usually unable to accommodate those with recurrent major depression (but maybe you suffer only from dysthymia).
Another possibility is Americorps, website, which provides a broad array of opportunities to serve. Unfortunately, Americorps doesn't provide a living wage - it's essentially a volunteer organization.
It's unfortunate that the U.S. doesn't have a more focused plan that encourages young people to work in a national service capacity (and pays at least a modest wage). Time Magazine has an excellent article on the subject:
National Service
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