Military Ballots; must see

[Tripleshot]

Russ

>>>The blatant hypocrisy is.<<<

You're right. The dems are just as hypocritacle as Reps.

One minute,you want the letter of the law followed if it suits your needs(KH certifying the count,forget manual re counts),and the next you fault the Dems for using the law when it suits thier needs(check that the absentee ballots are legal according to Florida and Federal law.)

You and your supporters are as hypocritcal as anyone else.:|

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones!

 

[ride525]

<< Not only that, in Broward county they changed the criteria, lowering the standard, at about 40% through the hand count. Only the blind, or a democrat, would be incapable of seeing what's going on here. >>



Why do you suppose they changed the standard Russ?

To &quot;steal&quot; the election for Gore?
Or to try and get as many of the votes counted as possible.

This issue here is the machine doesn't read all the votes cast. A hand check can determine votes for both candidates where the card wasn't punched all the way through.

 

[ride525]

Hey, lets get this straight....this five page letter is NOT new news.

It's been written about extensively already. I don't think the Secretary of State's memo has gotten as much press....I wonder what Drudge thinks of that.

 

[Russ]

<< Why do you suppose they changed the standard Russ? >>



Hanging chads were not producing enough &quot;new&quot; votes for Bore. They moved to a &quot;dimpled&quot; chad to find more. It's so damned obvious a child can see it.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Harvey]

Russ -- So the memo is real? All it appears to say is that all ballots should conform to the law, and it sets forth the specifics of the law.

As for attacking the source, I always question the source. The fact that something appears on the web or in print, or on TV does not make it true. Anyone who accepts significant input without considering the source is a fool or a moron.

Personally, I want to see every legitimate vote counted from our military personnel, as well as from voters who were honestly discounted because the forty year old voting machines simply are not reliable, from voters who were (contrary to statute) denied a fresh ballot when they reported that they had made a mistake on their first one (this happened), and from any other voter who can establish that their vote should be counted.

I'm tired of both the Bore and the Gush apologists. I listened to almost all of the Florida Supreme Court hearing, yesterday. If all of you piss-and-moaners on any side of this had done the same, you would have heard some very intelligent discussion that stuck right to the point by both the judges and the attorneys. I'm glad it's their decision. At least they are paying attention, instead of spinning the stories or belching out uninformed, meaningless opinons.

 

[FettsBabe]

<< One minute,you want the letter of the law followed if it suits your needs(KH certifying the count,forget manual re counts),and the next you fault the Dems for using the law when it suits thier needs(check that the absentee ballots are legal according to Florida and Federal law.) >>



Before you jump Russ, you ought to research to determine the following:

Why wasn't there a post mark on the ballots? Every letter I have ever received had one. But now all of a sudden hundreds of ballots are missing them! That sounds really weird to me.



<< Why do you suppose they changed the standard Russ? >>



They changed the standard to count the votes, but they only did this is highly democratic areas...why hadn't they demanded recounts in all counties in all states? I mean if we really want a true count lets count every freakin vote again, and again, and again, and again.




<< This issue here is the machine doesn't read all the votes cast. A hand check can determine votes for both candidates where the card wasn't punched all the way through. >>



You are right. But as you see if you review the changes in numbers for Gore, its only a few votes per county change for Gore, so why are we proceeding when Bush is ahead by 930? Why don't we just recount the entire US? Since the popular vote is also so close?

 

[ride525]

<< Hanging chads were not producing enough &quot;new&quot; votes for Bore. They moved to a &quot;dimpled&quot; chad to find more. It's so damned obvious a child can see it. >>



And what's wrong with finding more votes that the machine missed?

Shall we stop the election now, since Bush has a few more votes with perhaps THOUSANDS of votes still in question?

 

[FettsBabe]

Harvey - I agree that every vote should count. Wish it was that simple right now.

However, the law does have to be followed. This election needs to pass on to Bush, so we can start working on new criteria, election equipment, voter laws, etc. Right now all we are doing is &quot;spinning our wheels in BS.&quot;

Maybe this election will push people to revamp their voting laws and equipment. Thats if the American people push for the changes. I hope so, because I am already dreading the next election.

 

[ride525]

<< But as you see if you review the changes in numbers for Gore, its only a few votes per county change for Gore, so why are we proceeding when Bush is ahead by 930? Why don't we just recount the entire US? Since the popular vote is also so close? >>


Only a few votes are changing so far. But as I understand, from reading the news online, there are still a lot of votes that have been set aside for later consideration, which are questionable.

Why not recount the entire US? Because only Florida (with it's 25 electoral votes) seems to matter at this point.


<< This election needs to pass on to Bush >>

If he is ahead when the votes are all counted.

 

[Tripleshot]

FettsBabe

If any lesson should be learned from this,its that every vote counts and machines aren't perfect.

The rest is fluff to make you or I feel good about our choices. In the real world,it is all meaningless. We will all go about our pathetic lives just as before,working to pay for food,clothing,shelter,healthcare,and TAXES!

That we give so much attention to the parasites of our country and thier evil minions(I'm beginning to like that term) IE: politicians,lawyers,and beaurcrats has baffled me since the viet nam war days,when I first voted for a man who promised to end the war with honor and dignity. What a rude friggin awakening that was.:|

 

[Fathom5]

Norman Schwartzkof (sp?) stated that it is not uncommon for Military mail to NOT have a post mark due to technical difficulties. If technical difficulties are encountered processing the mail they just send it on without a postmark or the date may be wrong.

It was my understanding that all the ballots in question had been received by the county election boards within the alloted time limit so they know the ballot were on time, just not post marked.

So now your going to disenfranchise Military Personnel that are putting their lives on the line because their mail, through no fault of their own, didn't have any postmark or a wrong date even though it was received on time?

That's just plain wrong and the Democrats really like asses on that one.

 

[ride525]

Maybe there IS a way to get more overseas ballots counted. I just pulled this off CNN (I heard some of this yesterday, but not the part about conflicting Florida law)....

<< Thousands of military ballots were rejected because they lacked the foreign postmark Republican Secretary of State Katherine Harris said is necessary under a Florida statute. However, another section of the code states that overseas military ballots only need to be signed and dated by Election Day, an opinion endorsed Monday by the Democratic state attorney general, Bob Butterworth.

Butterworth dispatched a letter to state elections supervisors and canvassing boards instructing them to total all overseas absentee ballots from military personnel that are signed and properly dated.

His message was blunt: &quot;This office urges supervisors and canvassing boards in any county which has received such ballots to immediately revisit this issue and amend their reported vote totals, if appropriate.&quot;

 

[FettsBabe]

Ride - the law stated the day and time the vote had to be certified. Why is it ok to break the law or bend it to accomodate someone who is running for President? After all, the President isn't above the law (although Clinton seems to be - only because the American people allowed it).

TSHOT - You are right about every vote counting, but there is a state law that must be upheld (the deadline).

However, the next time I get a speeding ticket and my court date is on it, I'm not going to go, and just say I wasn't done computing my actual vehicle speed in relation to what the radar or laser gun determined. If one law can be bent, why can't it be bent when it benefits me? Oh, I almost forgot, I'm just a regular person.

Honestly, I just wish the state electoral college would go ahead and choose who they are voting for, so the counting can stop. It doesn't matter whether Bush or Gore comes out on top in the popular vote because the college can always vote the other way.

 

[ride525]

<< Ride - the law stated the day and time the vote had to be certified. Why is it ok to break the law or bend it to accomodate someone who is running for President? After all, the President isn't above the law (although Clinton seems to be - only because the American people allowed it). >>



See my post above about what one Democrat (and Gore's Florida Campaign Chairman) is trying to do. I hadn't heard about conflicting Florida law. Hope it gets some more votes in.

I agree with you about the law and certifying the vote. The Florida Supreme Court will have to decide whether that law conflicts with the right to have a hand recount, and which is more important in deciding to get &quot;the will of the voter.&quot;

Oh, and which law is President Clinton allowed to be &quot;above&quot;?

 

[FettsBabe]

Fathom - I figured it was through error of another country, but why wasn't it postmarked at the US postoffice? I don't understand that, but it has happened. If that is a common error, state law should address this issue and set a precidence if both parties agree that the votes should be counted. If they can't agree, then this should be taken up directly after the election to correct his problem for the next election. If there is a &quot;loop hole&quot; that allows the votes to be counted then I hope they use it. For once a &quot;loop hole&quot; would be used for a &quot;good&quot; purpose.

Ride - I hope you are right, so they can count them.

 

[FettsBabe]

Ride - Which law is Clinton above? Refer to his testimony in court when he deliberatly lied to the judge. Yes, he was fined, but a &quot;ordinary&quot; citizen would have served time in jail.

Why is a President allowed to go to court after their term has ended (for certain crimes/civil suits)?

While many Presidents have broken the Geneva Convention, why is Clinton still allowed to break it repeatedly? Afterall, it has to stop somewhere!

 

[chess9]

I see nothing improper in that letter. I've received literally hundreds of such letters from my lawyers.

Most of you obviously have no real world experience.

The Florida SOS, Ms. Harris the bird brain, is responsible for the votes not being counted. Blame her, not the Dems.

Every voter has a right to object to an illegal ballot. In fact, why would you support the counting of illegal ballots?

You right wingers are so avid in your support of hopeless causes that you have lost all concept of right and wrong. You are awash in a sea of contradictions and bankrupt ideas.

Grow up.

 

[Preyhunter]

<< Thousands of military ballots were rejected because they lacked the foreign postmark Republican Secretary of State Katherine Harris said is necessary under a Florida statute. >>



You're right, Harris is trying to uphold the letter of the law. She is also trying to uphold the letter of the law in her attempts to end the hand count and go with the certified counts that were due 7 days after the day of election. As I stated before, if these counties wanted to have the ballots hand-counted within that 7 day time frame, they could have had it done. I don't care if there is a law that gives provisions to counties regarding hand counts, the point is that they could have had them done in time. Period.

If I was one of the justices, my suggestion would be to take the amount of time that it took for the counties to request a hand count (max of 72 hours) and start my 7 day count from there. I would also take into account any &quot;counting time&quot; missed due to erroneous orders made by people telling them to stop counting (which hasn't been any more than 3 days total). That would be a MAXIMUM of 13 days (3 days after election, 3 days of erroneous delays, and 7 days of counting). How many days has it been since election day? This whole mess would be over. Not only that, but it would be fair and lenient.

 

[ride525]

<< If I was one of the justices, my suggestion would be to take the amount of time that it took for the counties to request a hand count (max of 72 hours) and start my 7 day count from there. I would also take into account any &quot;counting time&quot; missed due to erroneous orders made by people telling them to stop counting (which hasn't been any more than 3 days total). That would be a MAXIMUM of 13 days (3 days after election, 3 days of erroneous delays, and 7 days of counting). How many days has it been since election day? This whole mess would be over. Not only that, but it would be fair and lenient. >>



Interesting proposal. I wonder if the Supreme Court will try and figure out how long the hand counts could be carried out to, and not affect the Electoral College on December 18. I think the date of December 12 was mentioned more than once on Monday.

 

[FettsBabe]

How much longer do we have to count? How many more times?

What if the hand count determines Gore wins...Can the Repubs ask for another hand count since the other 3-4 came back in his favor?

When does it stop?

While Harris may be a &quot;brain bird&quot; she is a repub and is trying to uphold the law. She's not bending and twisting it in her or Bush's favor. She should be admired for that no matter what your party lines are.

 

[ride525]

<< How much longer do we have to count? How many more times? What if the hand count determines Gore wins...Can the Repubs ask for another hand count since the other 3-4 came back in his favor? >>



Let's count the counts....
First there was the original election day count.
Second there was a state-mandated machine recount.
We have finished TWO counts.
There has been about four counties that requested hand recounts (out of 67). Only one has finished.

Can the Repubs ask of another? Well, they could, but not sure there is time, and they've passed date to request......And also they Repubs for some reason seem against hand counts, at least in Florida. (Governor Bush signed a Texas law showing some preference to manual recounts in Texas.)

 

[Michael]

Sure - make the date the 12th. Then the losing side contests it. It goes to court and they only have 6 days to resolve it. Seems like an aweful short time. The 12th is an outside date. The 7 days after teh election seems like a nice safe date to me.

Going strictly one the questions asked and the tone of the questions, it sounded good for Gore's group. However, the Justices did make the point that there were no firm dates on when the recounts would finish that were on the record and there were very concerned about not losing all of Florida's votes.

And the point about the letter was that it specifically walked through how to attack the absentee ballots. The local canvassing boards have a fair amount of discretion. They could have accepted more ballots, but the Democrat observers attacked each one. That is hypocracy - the voters obviously intended on voting and yet they didn't punch all the way though, oops, I meant that there was no post mark form the military vessel/base so no vote.

Michael

 

[chess9]

Michael:

I'm betting the Supremes give them till December 5. December 12 is cutting it too closely. Need time for the contests.

FettsBabe:

You know what they say about a blind squirrel? Well that's Harris. Give her a test with 100 questions with two answers each and she'll get 50 right.

Also, according to the Attorney General her opinion on the postmark is wrong. I read the statute and I agree with him.

 

[Russ]

<< And what's wrong with finding more votes that the machine missed? >>



This is based on the flawed assumption that the machines actually missed any votes. The ONLY legitimate vote is one where the chad is completely seperated from the punch card. A chad with a &quot;dent&quot; in it, is NOT a vote. To believe it is, is to believe that Bore's voters are so physically weak they can't exert the tiny amount of force necessary to dislodge a minute scrap of paper. The premise is ridiculous.

The fundamental issue is whether or not there was any legally permissible reason to manually recount any counties. There is still ZERO compelling evidence that this move was justified under the law. Simply because Bore's legal team was able to coerce predominantly democrat canvassing boards in to proceeding, does not make the process legal. It is not.

Sadly, because the Florida State Supreme court owes it's soul to the democrat party, they will likely vote to overturn the law and ignore the state legislature in an attempt to get Albert Jr in to office.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Michael]

Russ - I have to disagree with you on what legally is a vote. Case after case (many helping Republicans) have resulted in ruling where the intent of the voter is important, not whether or not a chad was fully punched. The state of the chad is used to determine intent and &quot;dimpled&quot; chads have been used by judges for decades.

The canvassing boards are perfectly correct when they decided what marks the &quot;intent&quot; of the voter. If they had decided to do a manual count and only counted 100% punched chad, they would have been correct. Barring any statute, however, this could have been appealed to a judge who then would have had to view every single &quot;dimpled&quot; ballot and then decide if it meant a vote (almost a 100% chance of that).

I find it weird that there are so many &quot;dimpled&quot; chads without even one corner punched (PBC). I also find it appalling that Broward County changed their standard, especially since it was after the total number of counts Gore needed to win became known. I find it outrageous that Miami-Dade voted to begin a manual count AFTER the certification deadline had passed (even for overseas ballots). I feel that it would be wrong for the Florida Supreme Court to rewrite laws and throw out statutes.

I do not find there to be a problem with determining voter intent through marks on ballots.

Michael