Milestone Approach Alert!

[LcarsSystem]

Originally posted by: jrenz
Most, if not all of the people on their third or forth tour are there because they want to be.

Actually, I believe that they "appear" to keep signing up because when they have leave they go home then get called back. Most don't want to go, saw a story on the news about this awhile back; what appears to be happening and what IS actually happening.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: LcarsSystem

Originally posted by: jrenz
Most, if not all of the people on their third or forth tour are there because they want to be.

Actually, I believe that they "appear" to keep signing up because when they have leave they go home then get called back. Most don't want to go, saw a story on the news about this awhile back; what appears to be happening and what IS actually happening.

I keep telling people that bush did the same thing to Iraq that Osama bin Laden did to America but most people aren't capable of making the connection yet. It's been over three years of death and destruction for the Iraqi people vs only one day for the American people.

Here's an accurate depiction of what IS actually happening in Iraq thanks to george w. bush and his lying mouth...

Votes Counted. Deals Made. Chaos Wins.

By DEXTER FILKINS
Published: April 30, 2006

BAGHDAD, Iraq

THE country's new leaders were only five days into their jobs Thursday morning, when a BMW filled with armed men pulled alongside a van carrying the sister of Iraq's new Sunni vice president, Tariq al-Hashemi. The men opened fire, killing Maysoon al-Hashemi, a 61-year-old grandmother.

Just two weeks before, Mr. Hashemi's brother Mahmoud, a father of six, was shot to death in a similar way. At his sister's funeral service Thursday, Mr. Hashemi walked behind her coffin and looked on as his men lifted it into an S.U.V. that then carried her to Martyrs' Cemetery in northern Baghdad. The silver-haired Mr. Hashemi turned and walked away, his head hung low. "Let's go back, guys," he said to his men. Ms. Hashemi's murder offered not just another reminder of the horrible sacrifices made by so many Iraqis who have signed on to the American-backed democratic project here. It also highlighted what has become the single most confounding paradox of Iraq's and America's three-year-old war: that the democratic process, seen as the main hope for ending the violence, has been unable to stop it. Two constitutions, two elections and a referendum later, Iraq is reeling toward more chaos, not less.

The Iraqis who gathered last week around the newly chosen prime minister, Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, said they saw a fresh chance to bind the communities back together and put the country on a path toward normalcy. Indeed, a sense of relief pervaded the offices of Iraqi officials, who had finally broken a deadlock over results of popular elections that took place more than four months ago.

But the question hanging over the parliamentary votes last weekend was whether the elected leaders, most of them now barricaded inside the protected Green Zone, could do anything to stop the slide toward anarchy and civil war. Two years' worth of dealmaking by Iraq's elites has proved largely irrelevant to the realities unfolding on the ground.

In northern Baghdad, Shiite families arrive regularly at the Muamal Sadr refugee camp, fleeing the ethnic cleansing that is transforming the mixed cities around Baghdad. Four months ago, the camp was a vacant lot; today, about 150 families live there, many of them in tents provided by the government.

One of the newly arrived is Kharmut Hanoon, a 40-year-old farmer from Abu Ghraib, who said he abandoned his home and a pair of wheat fields a month ago after gunmen driving Opel sedans started killing Shiites in his neighborhood. "They just drive by and shoot you," he said.

Now, Mr. Hanoon and 14 relatives share a pair of tents at the camp. "Can you imagine that anyone would ever leave his home, for any reason?" sighed Mr. Hanoon, waving a cigarette. "Only bad people and gypsies live in tents."

Mr. Hanoon said the ugliness that forced him to flee was not a passing phenomenon, but the final measure of Iraq's Sunnis. When he packed his belongings and prepared to leave, he said, not a single one of his Sunni neighbors stopped by to say goodbye.

"It's in their genes," he said. "It's a disease. They hate the Shiites. I don't think things will ever go back to normal between Shiites and Sunnis."

According to the Iraqi government, about 14,000 families ? probably close to 100,000 people ? have been displaced by the violence. More than 80 percent, the government said, are Shiites. About 2,000 Iraqis have been killed since the Askariya Shrine, a holy Shiite mosque in Samarra, was destroyed in a bombing two months ago.

There is no way to verify such figures, but a similar despair pervades conversations with Sunnis. Omar al-Jabouri, who runs the Iraq Islamic Party's human rights office, keeps a photo album by his desk. It contains picture after picture of Sunni men who have been executed and tortured to death by, Mr. Jabouri says, Shiite death squads and their comrades in the Interior Ministry.

"These people were burned with acid," Mr. Jabouri said, pointing to a tableau of mangled corpses.

"This man, they used an electric drill," he said, flipping another page.

"Can you see this?" Mr. Jabouri said, turning the book for a visitor. "They drove nails into his head."

Finally Mr. Jabouri sighed.

"They have invented new methods," he said.

The mistrust for the Shiite-dominated government runs so deep in Sunni neighborhoods that some have tried to keep government forces out altogether. Earlier this month, when word spread that Interior Ministry commandos were planning to sweep the area, residents in the Adamiya district took up arms and sealed off the main roads. They dragged fallen date palms into the streets and piled bricks across others.

When the commandos finally came, the Iraqis said, the men of Adamiya were waiting for them. An all-night gun battle erupted, with dead on both sides. The commandos finally retreated. "For us, as Sunni people, we know that if the police take you, they will interrogate you and shoot you," said Mohammed Jaffar, 24, who took part in the fighting.

As often happens these days in conversations with ordinary Iraqis, Mr. Jaffar at first offered a reasonable explanation for the events in Adamiya, and then plunged into conspiracy theory. The police commandos are loyal only to the Shiite political parties that control the government, Dawa and the Supreme Council, Mr. Jaffar said, an assessment that many Iraqi and American officials endorse. Then he added: "The Shiites have a secret 50-year plan to turn Iraqi into an Islamic state like Iran. We know this from the Sunnis in Iran. There will be very few Sunnis left in Iraq, and they will not be able to resist."

Full-fledged civil war, with widespread ethnic bloodletting and mass migrations, has not yet come to Iraq. But a week's worth of conversations with ordinary Iraqis leaves one wondering if the government, even with American help, can any longer prevent this from happening. In casual discussions, Iraqis already express the view that their country will be split three ways, with a Kurdish state in the north, a Sunni one in the west, and a Shiite one in the south. The Tigris River would form the border where the new Sunni and Shiite states would meet in central Baghdad, and the capital's mixed Sunni-Shiite neighborhoods would be cleansed on each side of the river.

"There are things that have happened in this country that are irreversible," said Mowaffak al-Rubaie, Iraq's national security adviser. "It will take a lot of time, and the government will need to do a lot to bring the communities together."

And if drawing the Sunnis into the democratic process, which began last autumn with the drafting of the Constitution, was supposed to begin to defuse the insurgency, that hasn't worked, either. In the first four months of 2006, at least 217 American soldiers have been killed and 1,127 wounded.

At this stage, very few Iraqis, even those of good will, have many fresh ideas about stopping the country's disintegration. One of the more ambitious plans is to disband the private militias, which generate much of the mayhem. Yet even after Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani called on them last week to disband, that prospect seemed a long shot.

Indeed, in these bleak days most solutions tend toward sentimental, vague and nostalgic pleas for an Iraq where Sunni and Shiite live together without strife.

Mahmoud Mashhadani, the new speaker of the Parliament, recalled his days as a prisoner in Saddam Hussein's jails from 2000 to 2002. Mr. Mashhadani, a Sunni Islamist, said that in the cells, religious zeal took a back seat to helping one another stay alive.

"Sunni, Shiite, Communist, Kurd ? we all cried together," he said in his office. "Prison was a very good school."

Try this link for the accompanying graphic. It's a rundown on all the happy talk bullshit from bush over the years his lies have kept us in Iraq. You may have to be a Times subscriber to view it. I hope you can. It's worth viewing.

It Looked Fine at the Time: Moments of Optimism in Iraq

 

[maluckey]

While it's very honorable that you are a soldier, and are going BACK into Iraq, what is not honorable is your high horse. Get off of it. And realize that there are multiple ways of ending this war, one of which includes what you are doing. But another one involves getting you and people like you back home. Demonstrations like this help by sending a message to the politicians that Americans are tired of having their loved ones killed.

And in this "One World" that we live in, great power holds greater responsibility. A country cannot start a mess, say "you fix it!" and exit....

One must find not only the "honorable position", but save lives and face at the same time. So far I haven't seen a policy other than what we are doing that will accomplish this.

If you have an idea that can accomplish this, then do share it. Intelligent talk about solutions is a good idea. Shrill complaints without any solutions are not worth the bandwidth.

 

[Zebo]

I heard you don't even feel bomb sharnel going though your ass and out your shoulder from this guy on news hit by an IED? He said he looked around to make sure everyone was alright then saw his intestines and then it hit him.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: maluckey
One must find not only the "honorable position", but save lives and face at the same time.

The priority should be saving lives, both American and Iraqi, rebuilding the country and paying reperations for our 'mistake'. There is no solution which would allow us to do the right thing AND save face... screw face.... our international reputation is already in tatters... how about we take the most civil, honourable and ethical road instead of worrying about saving face? How about we shock, and prove wrong, the growing number of people around the world who believe we are nothing more than self-interested, aggressive imperialists?

How about we try to put a little 'truth' and 'justice' back in the 'American way'?

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge



How about we try to put a little 'truth' and 'justice' back in the 'American way'?

QFT

:thumbsup:

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Originally posted by: maluckey
One must find not only the "honorable position", but save lives and face at the same time.

The priority should be saving lives, both American and Iraqi, rebuilding the country and paying reperations for our 'mistake'. There is no solution which would allow us to do the right thing AND save face... screw face.... our international reputation is already in tatters... how about we take the most civil, honourable and ethical road instead of worrying about saving face? How about we shock, and prove wrong, the growing number of people around the world who believe we are nothing more than self-interested, aggressive imperialists?

How about we try to put a little 'truth' and 'justice' back in the 'American way'?

Our? I thought you immigrated to Austrailia?

Anyway much of America's reputation is beyond repair. Meny Americans even hate thier own country from cutting thier own damn thoats railing against the big 3 to outright putting us on the virge of bankruptcy in halls of government. I may join you soon.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Our? I thought you immigrated to Austrailia?

Anyway much of America's reputation is beyond repair. Meny Americans even hate thier own country from cutting thier own damn thoats railing against the big 3 to outright putting us on the virge of bankruptcy in halls of government. I may join you soon.

I am a permanent resident of Australia but an American citizen who still pays taxes and owns property in the US so, yes, 'our'

I believe in the American people and I believe in the American ideal even if I don't believe in the rotten political system which is dragging the nation down. I don't think America is a lost cause. But there is certainly reason to be very concerned.

BTW, Australia's participation in Iraq is also a very touchy and sore subject for the sitting government. This nation should answer for it's mistakes also.

 

[Zebo]

Is'nt Austrailia sorta binded to support Britain and US interventionism with treaties they signed? As far as a lost cause I agree I dont see any answers being laid out by pols right now from either side.

 

[Aisengard]

Originally posted by: maluckey

While it's very honorable that you are a soldier, and are going BACK into Iraq, what is not honorable is your high horse. Get off of it. And realize that there are multiple ways of ending this war, one of which includes what you are doing. But another one involves getting you and people like you back home. Demonstrations like this help by sending a message to the politicians that Americans are tired of having their loved ones killed.

And in this "One World" that we live in, great power holds greater responsibility. A country cannot start a mess, say "you fix it!" and exit....

One must find not only the "honorable position", but save lives and face at the same time. So far I haven't seen a policy other than what we are doing that will accomplish this.

If you have an idea that can accomplish this, then do share it. Intelligent talk about solutions is a good idea. Shrill complaints without any solutions are not worth the bandwidth.

What I meant was, that there are multiple ways of ending this war. Everyone is doing their part. Yours is a part, but it is not the only one, and I find that you insulting people for not being in the army offensive, callous, and condescending.

 

[maluckey]

The priority should be saving lives, both American and Iraqi, rebuilding the country and paying reperations for our 'mistake'. There is no solution which would allow us to do the right thing AND save face... screw face.... our international reputation is already in tatters... how about we take the most civil, honourable and ethical road instead of worrying about saving face? How about we shock, and prove wrong, the growing number of people around the world who believe we are nothing more than self-interested, aggressive imperialists?

That explains your POV but offers not one solution....

How do you save lives by leaving. The mess is already made, and the Djin will not go back into the bottle. Pulling out will intensify the conflict further. The United States abandoned the Iraqi people once before and we all know the results. The World saw what happened as well it and lost faith that The United States could be trusted to keep promises. Doing it again would certainly not help.

As soon as the Iraqi govt stops acting like children, the troops can leave. When Lawrence of Arabia help the Arabs take Aqaba, they felll to squabbling amongst themselves to the point where they were ineffective at accomplishing the slightest thing. The stakes are higher nowadays with suicide bombers etc, but their actions are the same.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: maluckey

The priority should be saving lives, both American and Iraqi, rebuilding the country and paying reperations for our 'mistake'. There is no solution which would allow us to do the right thing AND save face... screw face.... our international reputation is already in tatters... how about we take the most civil, honourable and ethical road instead of worrying about saving face? How about we shock, and prove wrong, the growing number of people around the world who believe we are nothing more than self-interested, aggressive imperialists?

That explains your POV but offers not one solution....

How do you save lives by leaving. The mess is already made, and the Djin will not go back into the bottle. Pulling out will intensify the conflict further. The United States abandoned the Iraqi people once before and we all know the results. The World saw what happened as well it and lost faith that The United States could be trusted to keep promises. Doing it again would certainly not help.

As soon as the Iraqi govt stops acting like children, the troops can leave. When Lawrence of Arabia help the Arabs take Aqaba, they felll to squabbling amongst themselves to the point where they were ineffective at accomplishing the slightest thing. The stakes are higher nowadays with suicide bombers etc, but their actions are the same.

The only way to fix a mistake is to go back to the point where it was made and take the appropriate steps to fix it. These must include holding the parties who are guilty of making the mistake responsible. You can't expect the fools who made the mistake in the first place and who refuse to change course to fix it. That's just common sense.

From my morning paper.

Bush walks fine line on Iraq after not-so-banner 3 years

Tuesday, May 02, 2006
BY JENNIFER LOVEN
Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- Three years after delivering his "Mission Accomplished" speech on Iraq, President Bush declared yesterday that another turning point had arrived with the establishment of a permanent government in Baghdad.

"We believe we've got partners to help the Iraqi people realize their dreams," Bush said of the recent emergence of new Iraqi leadership. "They need to know that we stand with them."

The president's May 1, 2003, appearance on the USS Abraham Lincoln is one of his most indelible war-related images.

Clad in a flight suit, he emerged dramatically from a Navy jet that screamed in for a landing on the carrier's deck. Under a giant "Mission Accomplished" banner, Bush announced that "major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

Though he was careful not to declare overall victory and warned of difficult work ahead, the speech was congratulatory in tone and aimed at marking a pivot from invasion to reconstruction.

"In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed," Bush said then. "The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on Sept. 11, 2001, and still goes on. ... We do not know the day of final victory, but we have seen the turning of the tide."

U.S. troops were trading fire with Iraqis almost daily, basic services were in shambles, and neither ousted leader Saddam Hussein nor weapons of mass destruction had been located. But the day seemed brilliantly staged. Detractors dreaded the prospect that Bush would use the images of that day for his 2004 re-election campaign and to reinforce his wartime popularity.

It didn't turn out that way.

Violence in Iraq didn't ebb. In the six weeks from the start of the invasion to Bush's speech, 139 U.S. soldiers had died. In the three years since, as of Sunday, there have been 2,258 more U.S. military deaths in Iraq -- an average of 63 each month.

There have been three democratic elections, with voter participation increasing each time. But it took four months of infighting to produce a slate of government leaders -- expected to be finalized this month -- representing all of Iraq's major ethnic and political factions in a fragile unity.

Reliable electrical power is still scarce in Iraq, petty corruption is rampant and the government's Interior Ministry is blamed for harboring death squads that are helping to drive sectarian violence.

In a frank assessment, the No. 2 U.S. intelligence official, Gen. Michael Hayden, said last week that the war in Iraq currently inspires jihadists, but that their failure there would weaken the movement globally. The United States, he said, must not forget the importance of Iraq.

"The conflict there and -- more importantly -- how it is routinely portrayed in Islamic media continues to cultivate supporters for the global jihadist movement," Hayden told an audience in Texas during a little-noticed speech.

Amid the difficulties, Bush's overall approval rating has fallen to a new low.

Democrats cited the anniversary in criticizing the president.

Rep. Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, chairman of House Democrats' campaign arm, issued a reminder of some of the administration's main prewar predictions: that Iraqi oil production would finance the reconstruction, American troops would be greeted as liberators, weapons of mass destruction would be found, and a war that is now heading toward a $300 billion-plus price tag wouldn't cost even a third of that.

Democratic leader Harry Reid stood on the Senate floor in front of a picture of Bush with the date May 1, 2003, and the phrase "Mission Accomplished" and read the names of the 16 troops from his home state of Nevada who had been killed.

Reid called it an "unfortunate anniversary" that marked "a public relations stunt gone horribly wrong."

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said some Democrats are choosing to ignore the importance of the unity government's establishment. "There's an effort simply to distract attention away from the real progress that is being made," he said.

In an appearance outside the Oval Office with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld yesterday, Bush walked a fine line between celebrating achievements and warning of more sacrifices to come.

With U.S. officials hoping the Iraqi government's existence will drain the insurgency and pave the way for an eventual reduction of U.S. troop levels, Bush sent Rice and Rumsfeld to Baghdad last week to help boost the Iraqi leaders. The president said his top foreign-policy officials reported back that the Iraqis understand the job ahead and are capable of fulfilling it -- through what he warned will be more tough days because terrorists have caused "such turmoil and havoc."

"We believe this is a turning point for the Iraqi citizens and it's a new chapter in our partnership," Bush said. "This government is more determined than ever to succeed."

All that bush cares about is denying responsibility and covering his ass. How can you expect this fool to fix ANYTHING? He can't handle cut and dried problems like ILLEGAL immigration right here at home. How the hell is he going to handle problems so complex that the people who have been involved in them, fighting each other for centuries, can't handle?

bush is so far in over his head he has no hope whatsoever of fixing anything either here in America or over there in Iraq. Iraq should NEVER have happened. Now that it has there will be NO QUICK OR EASY SOLUTION. But the first step is to get the morons who got us into this mess the hell out of control of it. Then show the world we mean business by holding them responsible for their unprovoked invasion, the unbelievable corruption that still goes on in Iraq to this day, and the war crimes that have and are being committed because of bush and his neo-con maniacs' illegal invasion of Iraq.

Until we take those first steps, NOTHING will ever be "fixed".

 

[Bateluer]

Just my 2 cents. I'm not going to go into the whole right or wrong issue with OIF, but there are some points I'd like to make about the present situation.

1) The insurgents are foreign nationals. The majority of the the Iraqi people want us there and are helping to secure their own country. Thousands of Iraqi police are trained every day. The civilian deaths aren't being caused by the allied miltary forces, those are being caused by the same foreign nationals that are using IEDs to kill allied soldiers. Blow up a building, kill two Americans, a dozen Iraqis. These people place no value on human life.

2) If the US suddenly pulled out now, Iraq would be in far worse position then it is right now. The US isn't going to leave until the job is done.

3) Let me see, how to say this . . .BBond, you are an idiot. You do realize that you are essentially providing aid and comfort to the enemy by attempting to corrode and corrupt the will of the American people? A act of treason, punishable by the death penalty?

The war on terror is not something will be won overnight. Terrorists have no national borders. They seek safe harbors in many countries, likely even within the US. They have ethics. They have no reservations about killing unarmed civilians. Yes, BBond, this means you. These terrorists would have no problems sawing your head off with a pocket knife on international television. Terrorists need to be hunted down and brought to justice. They are little more than criminals and murders. They are not subject to the LOAC.

You people spout so much Anti-Bush propaganda, it makes me sick. You rant about the mistakes of the Bush Administration, but never mention the atrocities committed every single day in the middle east by these terrorists. You never once mention how these people target school children, solely because they are not Muslim. You never once mention that Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons on his own citizens, or how he'd torture his victims through slow torture.

You should enlist in the US Armed Forces, BBond. American servicepeople deserve the utmost respect and admiration of the American people, we don't need morons like you spitting on us as we try to keep you safe at night.

Now, I'm getting too angry to continue, which is why I usually avoid this forum. The high concentration of idiots makes my blood boil.

 

[BBond]

The insurgents are mostly Iraqis who are tired of having an occupying for fvcking up their country for no damn reason. bush did the same thing to Iraq that Osama did to the U.S. on 9/11. Until idiots like you are able to wrap your warped minds around that fact, nothing will change. Things will, as they have since March 19, 2003, only get worse.

I'm not for a sudden pullout. I'm for holding the criminals who are responsible for this complete and unnecessary unprovoked disaster responsible for their crimes. Only then, after our allies and the world see we're serious about fixing the mess these idiots have caused, will we be able to form a true coalition and get the kind of international help that is absolutely necessary to straighten this gargantuan mess bush has created.

As for the will of the American people, Bateluer, you obviously are ingorant of polling data. The will of the American people, it seems, isn't being corroded and corrupted by ME, it is being corroded and corrupted by king george and his band of moronic criminals that he laughingly refers to as an administration. When you start bandying about treason charges I suggest that if you want them to stick and have some good effect to boot, you bandy them about against the true traitors -- king george and his band of idiots.

As for service people, I respect them but I don't agree with sending them on fools' missions that erode America's reputation and expose us for what bush wants us to be -- an occupying force sent around the world to protect his rich contributors' interests at the point of a gun. To use the U.S. armed forces so people like cheney and corporations like Halliburton can profit off of the lives of the very same men and women you demand respect for. What do you consider the war profiteering and utter corruption that's going on in Iraq? Do you consider THOSE as respect for our troops?

You're anger is misguided. Why am I not surprised? Focus your anger where it belongs -- at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Stunt
It's as if you are celebrating these "milestones"

It's as if the rest of you are ignoring these milestones.

The soldiers who are coming home in coffins, left in warehouses, handled like common cargo, can't ignore these milestones. Their families can't ignore these milestones. Only people like you and the filthy war profiteering liars like bush and cheney can ignore these milestones as they count their profits.

You would prefer we let the terrorists attack us at home?

I dont understand whats so difficult to understand about this. We fight them here at home or we fight them overseas, but either way we WILL fight them.
Turning a blind eye will simply mean we get attacked again and again.

 

[ECUHITMAN]

Originally posted by: maluckey

The priority should be saving lives, both American and Iraqi, rebuilding the country and paying reperations for our 'mistake'. There is no solution which would allow us to do the right thing AND save face... screw face.... our international reputation is already in tatters... how about we take the most civil, honourable and ethical road instead of worrying about saving face? How about we shock, and prove wrong, the growing number of people around the world who believe we are nothing more than self-interested, aggressive imperialists?

That explains your POV but offers not one solution....

How do you save lives by leaving. The mess is already made, and the Djin will not go back into the bottle. Pulling out will intensify the conflict further. The United States abandoned the Iraqi people once before and we all know the results. The World saw what happened as well it and lost faith that The United States could be trusted to keep promises. Doing it again would certainly not help.

As soon as the Iraqi govt stops acting like children, the troops can leave. When Lawrence of Arabia help the Arabs take Aqaba, they felll to squabbling amongst themselves to the point where they were ineffective at accomplishing the slightest thing. The stakes are higher nowadays with suicide bombers etc, but their actions are the same.

Why is it that if someone is complaining about anything the default responce is well that is your POV, but you have yet to say anything about a solution...

Yes I complain about the reasons we are in Iraq, yes I complain about the US causalities. Do I have a reasonable solution? No. You want to know why? I am not a general with on the ground intelligence. I am not a policy maker for the US government.

I have a few ideas that might help (albeit not popular ideas):

1) Start a draft.

2) Get a few million soldiers and fully occupy Iraq. Seal the boarders completely. No one in or out without proper documentation.

3) Once it is locked down, move in the government contractors to rebuild and FULLY fix the Iraq infrastructure. While this is going on, start training Iraq police and soldiers. Once they have enough soldiers and police, start withdrawing our troops by supplementing our troops with their troops.

Yes I know that last section is what we are trying to do right now, but as long as you have people living with power for only a few hours a day in their capital city it is hard for any political process to get off the ground. Also, stop looking at them like they are children and can't agree on things. If I remember correctly it took the US around 11 years from the day we declared our independence to develop the constitution we have today. And 100 years later we had a civil war. Democracy is a difficult concept when you have never experienced it. Democracy also does not work everywhere, and I suspect it will not work in Iraq for many MANY more years. They are too reliant on their religion and less reliant on the rule of law. Separation of church and state is a key thing you need in democracy.

 

[ECUHITMAN]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Stunt
It's as if you are celebrating these "milestones"

It's as if the rest of you are ignoring these milestones.

The soldiers who are coming home in coffins, left in warehouses, handled like common cargo, can't ignore these milestones. Their families can't ignore these milestones. Only people like you and the filthy war profiteering liars like bush and cheney can ignore these milestones as they count their profits.

You would prefer we let the terrorists attack us at home?

I dont understand whats so difficult to understand about this. We fight them here at home or we fight them overseas, but either way we WILL fight them.
Turning a blind eye will simply mean we get attacked again and again.

You honestly think that creating more hatred for the US by the Muslim world (because in their view we are on a crusade to destroy Islam) is going to reduce the likelihood of terrorist?s attacks here?

They are terrorists; we will never fight 'them' regardless of where we are because we are trying to fight an idea and a tool to get that idea across with bombs and bullets. Until we change the minds of people that either sympathize or support the terrorists we will never win this 'War on Terrorism'.

EDIT:
Also the idea that we would 'let' them attack us at home if we are not in the Middle East invading countries is ridiculous. What you have never heard of Special Forces?

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Stunt
It's as if you are celebrating these "milestones"

It's as if the rest of you are ignoring these milestones.

The soldiers who are coming home in coffins, left in warehouses, handled like common cargo, can't ignore these milestones. Their families can't ignore these milestones. Only people like you and the filthy war profiteering liars like bush and cheney can ignore these milestones as they count their profits.

You would prefer we let the terrorists attack us at home?

I dont understand whats so difficult to understand about this. We fight them here at home or we fight them overseas, but either way we WILL fight them.
Turning a blind eye will simply mean we get attacked again and again.

You honestly think that creating more hatred for the US by the Muslim world (because in their view we are on a crusade to destroy Islam) is going to reduce the likelihood of terrorist?s attacks here?

They are terrorists; we will never fight 'them' regardless of where we are because we are trying to fight an idea and a tool to get that idea across with bombs and bullets. Until we change the minds of people that either sympathize or support the terrorists we will never win this 'War on Terrorism'.

EDIT:
Also the idea that we would 'let' them attack us at home if we are not in the Middle East invading countries is ridiculous. What you have never heard of Special Forces?

Brush up on your history son.
The terrorists arent going away, they've been doing this for 40+ years. If you think no action is the right action your asking for a Beslen school incident right here.

I for one am glad we're in Iraq pulling the terrorists into that region to fight them rather then waiting for them to come here.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Stunt
It's as if you are celebrating these "milestones"

It's as if the rest of you are ignoring these milestones.

The soldiers who are coming home in coffins, left in warehouses, handled like common cargo, can't ignore these milestones. Their families can't ignore these milestones. Only people like you and the filthy war profiteering liars like bush and cheney can ignore these milestones as they count their profits.

You would prefer we let the terrorists attack us at home?

I dont understand whats so difficult to understand about this. We fight them here at home or we fight them overseas, but either way we WILL fight them.
Turning a blind eye will simply mean we get attacked again and again.

How can you justify attacking a nation that had no terrorists so that "we don't have to fight them at home"?

What gave king george the right to name Iraq his homefield for his "war on terror"? What did the Iraqi people do to deserve this honor? And since it was OK for king george to name Iraq his homefield for his "war on terror", then why is he, the person who brought the terrorists to Iraq, blameless?

Your position just isn't logical. And this nonsense about fighting them there instead of here is just more illogical fear monging from king george. If king george had done the job in Afghanistan after 9/11 NO ONE would have criticized him. He could have wiped out al Qaeda and the Taliban. Instead he send a paltry 11,000 U.S. troops and relied heavily on local warlords to do the job those 11,000 couldn't do on their own. If king george had sent 200,000 U.S. troops to Afghanistan -- WHERE THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN SENT -- Osama wouldn't still be roaming around free, Zarqawi wouldn't still be roaming around free, and al Qaida in Iraq would NEVER have existed.

The truth is, we aren't fighting them there instead of here. We're CREATING them there so they can still fight us wherever the choose. And they are currently choosing Iraq because they just LOVE the way king george has bogged down our forces, is spending hundreds of billions of dollars with little to no result, and they want to keep us there to drain our resources even more.


And the fact is, they don't even need to recruit many terrorists now. They have enough Iraqis who are completely pissed off at the USA for invading and destroying their country, killing, maiming, and torturing Iraqi civilians to do their bidding. We aren't fighting them over there to keep from fighting them here. If king george had been doing his job all this time our borders would be secure enough to keep them out. Instead, king george's incompetent and outright criminal acts have made the terrorist threat and our ability to address it WORSE.

 

[ECUHITMAN]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Stunt
It's as if you are celebrating these "milestones"

It's as if the rest of you are ignoring these milestones.

The soldiers who are coming home in coffins, left in warehouses, handled like common cargo, can't ignore these milestones. Their families can't ignore these milestones. Only people like you and the filthy war profiteering liars like bush and cheney can ignore these milestones as they count their profits.

You would prefer we let the terrorists attack us at home?

I dont understand whats so difficult to understand about this. We fight them here at home or we fight them overseas, but either way we WILL fight them.
Turning a blind eye will simply mean we get attacked again and again.

You honestly think that creating more hatred for the US by the Muslim world (because in their view we are on a crusade to destroy Islam) is going to reduce the likelihood of terrorist?s attacks here?

They are terrorists; we will never fight 'them' regardless of where we are because we are trying to fight an idea and a tool to get that idea across with bombs and bullets. Until we change the minds of people that either sympathize or support the terrorists we will never win this 'War on Terrorism'.

EDIT:
Also the idea that we would 'let' them attack us at home if we are not in the Middle East invading countries is ridiculous. What you have never heard of Special Forces?

Brush up on your history son.
The terrorists arent going away, they've been doing this for 40+ years. If you think no action is the right action your asking for a Beslen school incident right here.

I for one am glad we're in Iraq pulling the terrorists into that region to fight them rather then waiting for them to come here.

Brush up on your reading skills, son.
I never said the terrorists are going away.... I also did not say that doing nothing is the right action, I just am saying that invading Muslim countries, killing Iraqi civilians, and getting blown up by IED's is hardly fighting them over there. Our current actions and policies are only going to create more terrorism not reduce it.

Again, I will be very clear, I do not think we should sit back and do nothing but major military actions (i.e. invading countries) in the Middle East is not the way to reduce the number of terrorists unless you propose killing each and every single man, woman, and child in the middle east and even that would only reduce Muslim terrorists.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: BBond
How can you justify attacking a nation that had no terrorists so that "we don't have to fight them at home"?

Thats a sticky question to answer.
In its simplest form your right. We had no reason to go to Iraq. If we were really after the terrorists we should have hit Afghan, Saudi, Iran or Pakistan.
But from a long term strategic perspective Iraq is a very good position to wage a war from. I think the whole Iraq thing wasnt about fighting terrorists immediately and more about positioning ourselves for the long haul.

What gave king george the right to name Iraq his homefield for his "war on terror"? What did the Iraqi people do to deserve this honor? And since it was OK for king george to name Iraq his homefield for his "war on terror", then why is he, the person who brought the terrorists to Iraq, blameless?

See above. Its a long term strategic move.

Your position just isn't logical. And this nonsense about fighting them there instead of here is just more illogical fear monging from king george. If king george had done the job in Afghanistan after 9/11 NO ONE would have criticized him. He could have wiped out al Qaeda and the Taliban. Instead he send a paltry 11,000 U.S. troops and relied heavily on local warlords to do the job those 11,000 couldn't do on their own. If king george had sent 200,000 U.S. troops to Afghanistan -- WHERE THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN SENT -- Osama wouldn't still be roaming around free, Zarqawi wouldn't still be roaming around free, and al Qaida in Iraq would NEVER have existed.

Agreed, if your going short term. If you are planning for long term, well, see above. Iraq is an excellent position to establish a presence in the Middle East.

The truth is, we aren't fighting them there instead of here. We're CREATING them there so they can still fight us wherever the choose. And they are currently choosing Iraq because they just LOVE the way king george has bogged down our forces, is spending hundreds of billions of dollars with little to no result, and they want to keep us there to drain our resources even more.

Yes we're creating them. And destroying them there as well. There *will* be terrorists who wish harm upon us. We simply cant stop that or change that. Maybe we've created more then there would have been had we not went to Iraq, but by going to Iraq we draw the terrorists out there rather then waiting for them to come here.

And the fact is, they don't even need to recruit many terrorists now. They have enough Iraqis who are completely pissed off at the USA for invading and destroying their country, killing, maiming, and torturing Iraqi civilians to do their bidding. We aren't fighting them over there to keep from fighting them here. If king george had been doing his job all this time our borders would be secure enough to keep them out. Instead, king george's incompetent and outright criminal acts have made the terrorist threat and our ability to address it WORSE.

And we also have alot of Iraqi's who are happy we're there.
I cannot argue the border issue though. It seems completely assinine to flaunt this war on terror overseas then leave our borders completely open so any would be evil doer can walk right in.

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: Zebo
I heard you don't even feel bomb sharnel going though your ass and out your shoulder from this guy on news hit by an IED? He said he looked around to make sure everyone was alright then saw his intestines and then it hit him.

We have GOT to do something about our public schools.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: BBond
When are the American people going to demand accountability for the greatest crime ever committed by an American president?

Even the talking heads on FoxNN admit that if the repubs get thrashed in the upcoming elections, there will be a hard push for impeachment. So you can always hope the sheeple will refuse to be shorn this time

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: BBond
When are the American people going to demand accountability for the greatest crime ever committed by an American president?

Even the talking heads on FoxNN admit that if the repubs get thrashed in the upcoming elections, there will be a hard push for impeachment. So you can always hope the sheeple will refuse to be shorn this time

Some states aren't waiting for the election.

THREE STATES to vote on forwarding REAL impeachment bills that require US House votes

The headlines at Democracy Now! are saying that Vermont is going to deliver their impeachment resolution TODAY. More to follow after the news is posted at 11.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

That is damned savy, if they get enough prolonged media coverage. It will help prevent Rove&co. from distracting voters from the real issues.

The Family Guys humorously lampooned how easy it is to distract the public from the important issues this week