Microsoft's Peter Moore: Don't focus on Xbox 360 failure, focus on repair

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Sphexi

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2005
7,280
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Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
i would say that's the best possible response really - "we're doing everything we can to repair current failures and prevent future ones" i mean.. what else is the guy gonna say?

I agree. It's a higly complex machine that they've crammed into a tiny little space, things are going to break and everybody knows it. Sony had their own problems with the PS3, with it not wanting to do 1080 before the release, and it overheating and whatnot. Microsoft has taken very good care of people with problems though, as opposed to Sony who has this nasty habit of blaming problems on the customers, not themselves.
 

randomlinh

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,846
2
0
linh.wordpress.com
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: kyzen
I've had a 360 for about a year now with no issues (knock on wood), love it... when I play it. My biggest issue is the lack of appealing games. PS3 is worse, and I can't even find a Wii to formulate an opinion on.

I think the heating issues might also have something to do with the location of your 360... if it's in a small unventilated cabinet, yeah, it's bound to get a little hot. Mine is sitting atop my desk though, where it gets plenty of ambient cool air.

Mine is sitting pretty close to a vent in the floor that is blowing out cold air from the central A/C system. There should be no excuse for it croaking.

face it, it just doesn't like you and enjoys toying with your emotions
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
47
91
Well, just turned it back on. RRoD. Won't start up at all anymore. Took off the HDD... RRoD again. EFF YOU MS! :|
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,727
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the main reason for the high failure rate is quite simple. ms made a couple of serious design flaws and imho, these were not a big deal with the early games, but as the newer games came out they were pushing the hardware much harder and with the higher resolutions (720p, 1080i and now i think 1080p for the new elite) becoming the norm, these design issues are showing their ugly head.

the first design issue is the gpu hs - it is extremely small in the terms of a gpu hs, has very little airflow and is made of aluminum.

the second design flaw is the attaching mechanism of both the cpu and gpu hs. they put tremendous pressure on both the heatsink, to the point of actually warping the gpu hs (i have seen warped hs on my buddies 360 that had died)

the third is not so much a flaw but being rohs compliant - at least that is what i have heard. the solder is either very low lead or no lead which makes it brittle.

so the failures come from the fact that you have solder that is brittle, a lot of heat on the gpu hs that doesn't get much air and a cpu and gpu hs retention mechanism that puts a lot of stress on the mb so the end result is that you get broken solder connections, usually around the gpu area. there are very easy ways to fix the problem but they void your warranty, so that is why people go through 3-6 consoles. if you want to fix your 360 and not continue to have these issues, you basciall do what is called the xbracket or xclamp mod - you remove the bracket that ms put underneath the m/b and connects the 2 hs and replace them with regular screws and washers to get the same level of height that the stock standoffs create, apply some as5 to the cores and you are good to go. what these mods do is relieve the stress so the m/b can actually be flat and without tension and a very high percentage of dead 360s come back to life, and work fine thereafter. ms has attempted to fix this problem by putting some epoxy around the solder joints of the gpu and i think the cpu on the new 360 elite, but that won't fix the problem. imho, the reason ms won't admit there is a problem is that then there would need to be a recall, and when you have nearly 11M consoles out there, well you can see why they don't want to admit there is a problem.

this is sad too because the 360 is actually a very good console imho. the quality of games is very good when gaming in hd along w/ 5.1 DD sound - very good.

people even go farther to get more air inside the actual console w/ holes and additional fans as there are areas around the m/b you can tap into to get 12V and 5V where needed.

sadly it is this simple. sure you will have some hardcore failures, but i am guessing what i have described here accounts for 75%+ of the issues. and for the 360 my buddy had that died, well no issues whatsoever and it has been quite a few months with more than 1 marathon 9-10hour gaming session playing games that are hard on the hardware (rb6:vegas, graw2) in either 720p or 1080i.

doing some simple mods have lowered the gpu temp (the main issues hs wise as the cpu has a decent hs - large, heatpipe and decent airflow) over 15C, and again, these are very easy mods to do.

there is no way a computer m/b or gpu manf would have ever considered the amount of tension ms design puts on the board.

the other pita is that when you get a repaired 360 none of these mods have been done because then they would be admitting a design flaw, so your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc 360 will more than likely fail too :(
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,727
46
91
Originally posted by: RaiderJ
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: Fraggable
What exactly is the cause of all the failures? I hear about the dreaded red circles and all but is it overheating? Bad BIOS or firmware of some kind?

From what I understand, it's from heat causing the motherboard to warp which in turn causes the GPU to break from its lead-free solder connections.

That's pretty much it. The "X-clamps" MS uses to hold down the heatsinks cause the board to bend slightly. Couple that with a terrible fan shroud design which does little to remove the heat from those sinks, you get desoldered connections.

I recently took apart my friend's 360 with the 3 red rings and fixed it with about $5 in parts from Lowe's. Remounted the heatsinks with regular machine screws and heated up the board to reconnect the solder points (by turning the system on w/o the fans installed for a couple minutes).

Then, I took some aluminum tape and covered the tops of the heatsinks so that the air being pulled by the fans was over the entire heatsink, not just one side of it. Ever pull out a game disc from the 360 and find it burning hot? That's because the GPU heatsink isn't being cooled.

After the fix, I ran the system for 2 hours and the game disc was barely above room temperature. The heat exhausted from the fans was also very warm (a good thing).

SUMMARY: Poor heatsink and fan shroud design - recipe for failure!

the reason the discs get so hot is because the rom is basically the top part of the heatsink....quite sad
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: mugs

I would buy an Xbox 360 TODAY, possibly even an Elite, but I refuse to buy until I'm reasonably confident it will not die. :|

Probably won't happen until the die shrink in the fall.

I know, and it annoys me that I have to wait that long. :( I have this nice, new HDTV and all.

Oh well, maybe I'll get lucky and MS and Sony will force each other to cut prices. :)
 

naldo

Golden Member
Aug 5, 2001
1,163
0
71
I dont even think the die shrink is going to help much unless they mount the chips to the board differently.
 

Blueoak

Senior member
Dec 13, 2001
372
0
0
The xclamp fix made my xbox work again. (whew)

It did freeze once again after fixing it, so I took the case back off and left it off. It hasn't frozen again.

Thanks for the heads up on the fix. Googled for the instructions.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: MyStupidMouth
never had a problem with mine.
Yes, the failure rate has not yet reached 100%. Yay!

Microsoft did highlght Xbox warranty repairs as a significant contributor to losses from that division in their most recent financial report, and MS execs try to dance around the problem with comments like "it's a complex business."

I'd buy a 360 today if it was reliable, but it's not.

I read denials like "out of 5 friends and me, only one of us has had their xbox die." Of course that's a failure rate of 16% for your group, not the 3% MS has now stopped trying to claim.
 

state 08

Platinum Member
Jun 6, 2005
2,009
0
0
My roommate bought a 360 last week. Like, last Tueday. Got the Red Rings of Death today. Just about 7 days. Gonna get a new one tomarrow.
 

state 08

Platinum Member
Jun 6, 2005
2,009
0
0
Since it was only a week, Bestbuy exchanged the 360.

Gonna keep it vertical this time and see if that helps any with the cooling.

/fingers crossed
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Fraggable
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: Fraggable
What exactly is the cause of all the failures? I hear about the dreaded red circles and all but is it overheating? Bad BIOS or firmware of some kind?

From what I understand, it's from heat causing the motherboard to warp which in turn causes the GPU to break from its lead-free solder connections.

It seems like that's something they might have caught in testing...

Seriously, don't they do testing anymore? How could you not find a problem that common?

I almost bought one tonight, EB Games had some refurbs for $259 with a wireless controller and I figured a refurb would probably have been fixed and maybe more stable than a new one at this point. But I failed to find a game to convince me I needed it.

It's politics.

QA guy raises big stink about a minor problem he found that wouldn't affect many units. A decision (and a proper one) was made to manufacturer it anyway. There is always a failure rate. The cost to fix this (be it time or money) was greater than the potential loss. It's all a business decision.

thats a poor business decision and tactic.
 

raystorm

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
4,712
2
0
Originally posted by: NFS4
**Updated 6/13** MICROSOFT FINALLY ADDRESS POOR XBOX 360 COOLING

http://dailytech.com/New+Xbox+...Europe/article7667.htm

mmm...I just sent my coffin to MS and they should get it tomorrow. I wonder if I'll get one with this new cooling solution. All I hear is the x-clamps are the issue so who knows if the new heatsink setup will be any better. Lets all wait and see if anyone has a busted 360 with these new heatsinks.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Two employees speaking anonymously about 2 stores in Australia isn't compelling evidence that the worldwide failure rate is 30%. It might be higher ;) .

As you see in every thread on this, failure rate varies wildly in the "all x of my friends" groups mentioned here, from 0% up to >100% (multiple failures per person). A sample of 2 stores (and with unreliable sources) is way too low to know anything about the overall rate.

We know the rate is much higher than 5%, even MS has dropped that lie, but all we know for sure is that it's somewhere between 0% and 49%.

("vast majority of xbox owners happy" = at least 51% = failure rate no higher than 49%.)
 

Cellulose

Senior member
May 14, 2007
360
0
76
Forza, like thousands of other copies, has fuxed up so many consoles by itself. Check out the Forzamotorsport.net forums...