Microsoft XP.... I think its time to start looking towards Linux...

[ToBeMe]

"Something" WILL replace Windows in the future.........just not to sure Linux will be it! Hell, they're still losing ground! as a thread in O/S forum shows, Windows went from 87% Marketshare to 90% LAST YEAR! I personally have tried, and used it.....I don't mind it, don't care for it that much either.....but try putting it on a "newbies" machine......it isn't worth the time! I've done it to many times to count, and inevitebly they want Windows back on, or on it period! There may be quite a few of us in here that "can" use it.....but, look at the numbers.......that's not even a dent in the total number of users in the USA alone!Linux has two choices, remain a "niche" O/S, or, make the O/S as user friendly, or more so than Windows or they can forget about gaining much more ground than they already have! It's a shame though really, like BEos, it's great! Personally though, I'd like to see the numbers as pertaining to how many people have tried Linux and now have the copy sitting on their shelf somewhere collecting dust......As for XP, I've tried every build so far and I have to say that in some ways it seems like just a bloated 2K......but in others, it does show a lot of promise! Updated from 98/ME will be worth it without question........updating from 2K.....we'll have to see, it's questionable at best right now!

 

[pm]

One more comment that I have about Linux is that it started out as a geek project and yet it has turned into a consumer product. But the majority of people who make up the Linux community (which to a very small extent includes myself) don't treat it like a product - we are still treating it like our science fair project.

To really succeed with a product, you have to listen to your customers: which is everyone who uses the product and everyone who would consider using the product.

Linux advocates (and nVidia advocates, Apple advocates, etc) seem to think that if you yell loud enough that you can convince them to use your product, but the truth is that the better way to convince people to use your product is to have it be so superior to the alternatives that people flock to it without anyone needing to convince them much at all.

Linux is not there yet - in fact it has quite a ways to go. I program and advocate for the Linux effort and yet I will freely admit that I generally use Windows 2000 when I'm just relaxing and goofing around. Linux does have a long way to go, but I think it has a bright future. Don't think that because it currently has a Unix command line interface that Linux is going to show up on your machine someday looking like DOS. In fact, I would bet in a couple of years most of us will see a device that looks cool, and is easy to use, and is graphically controlled, and we will later find out that it's based on the Linux kernel.

 

[MGMorden]

and by the time it becomes mainstream (if ever) it will probably be as bloated and evil and OWNED by somebody.

It's GPL'd. It can't be sold/owned etc. Linux is a collective product. It is what we make it. As people have thrown around "you get what you pay for here", I'll thow out another cliche: "If you want something done right, do it yourself.". If the userbase works on creating an OS it has the potential to be better than anything some company develops for us behind closed doors.

 

[DeathroweR]

MGMorden -

I know it's open-source, but unless somebody owns it who will be responsible for the final product? Who's going to provide support?
heh..
And who will be the "Chief Software Architect" ?

 

[Spook]

Solaris is built on the Unix kernal isn't it... Who doesn't know the quality of Sun???

They manage tech support pretty well...

 

[MGMorden]

That's the point. There is no real "final product". It doesn't have to be packaged up and sent out the door like other things. Wehn some body wants something added they add it themselves (if they can) or ask another member of the community to add it. There doesn't have to be a Cheif software architect. That's just trying to impose an authority figure on the OS because people feel that's the way it's supposed to be (too many years using windows I guess). I guess I'm moreso talking abou GNU/Linux rather than Linux itself (Linus does have authority over the kernel, or rather the "official" version of it. many other people can and do release patches for it).

 

[MGMorden]

Spook: Solaris is a "flavor" of Unix. There really is no Unix kernel (anymore), there's OS's that look/act like Unix on the command line level (called POSIX compliance). Solaris isn't really geared towards ever getting on the desktop. it's a programming/workstation os and will probably stay that way (what it's marketed as).

 

[Spook]

My point is that there are Unix kernals out there that are supported, and supported well.... And very widely disiminated as well...

If business has excepted it... All we need is an API, for 3D and we're ready to go...

I've never seen the x86 version of Solaris working, but I know it exists...

 

[MadRat]

I think my "RENTAL FEE = tax deductible" went over everyone's head. Corporations spend based on $$$. Windows XP is geared to fit into a niche corporate market. You will be able to right off the rental fee licensing on your taxes whereas those that actually (outright) purchase Windows XP cannot.

 

[Diesel21]

Nice discussion, a lot of good points have turned up and I must agree with most of you, Linux is just not there yet.

Regarding the stability / performance of Linux vs. Win2K There is no doubt that Linux is more stable as a server. If you are using your machine from early morning to late night windows 2000 will do this just fine. I don't think stability in Win2K vs. Linux really is a argument anymore when we are talking about workstations, servers yes, workstations no.

Stability is what you makes it to be, its "how" you feel about your box, its not like you can run a timedemo and say "hey I get 160 fps how much do you get?"

As to the performance side of Linux, my experience is that it did a lot more HD swapping and overall feelt slower. I tried both KDE and Gnome and the GUI feelt slow.

My Quake3 ran just as fine as in Win2K, only problem I had was that the mouse was not smooth, I did set the rate to everything from 100 to 200 of my mouse, and changed some other settings but I just did'nt get it smooth.

 

[MGMorden]

Spook: Linux already has a 3d api. It uses a version of OpenGL implemented through DRI. It wouldn't be a bad platform if more developers made games for it. If I could get a Linux version of Warcraft III when it comes out, that would totally ROCK.

 

[PCResources]

I really shouldn't, but i'm still going to...



<< There doesn't have to be a Cheif software architect >>



Actually there is one for Linux, Linux is the actual kernel, everything else is just add-on's and the chief software architect for the Linux kernel is named Linus Torvalds... That's right, the boy who had the idea is still around, he is the one who says what goes and what does not, he is responsible for which featuers a new kernel will have...

Eventually someone else will have to take over his work, let's just hope that that individual is as bright, focused and down-to-earth as Linus is.

PM: Well, if we all stop discussing Linux, then who will tell people about it? If all that any newbie will ever hear is how great Windows is then why should he try Linux, an OS that he never heard of?

We need to point out that Linux is a great OS, that it's scalability gives you the freedom to actually compile the kernel on your own, choose which UI and so on, you can actually create your own personal OS, right down to kernel level, the problem with this freedom is that most people don't know what to do with it, and most are to lazy to learn...

Maybe if we can convince someone to try out Linux, there will be more people using Linux, and that would be great, because that would mean better hw support in the end, something that everybody who uses Linux would benefit from...

Patrick Palm

PC Resources

 

[ToBeMe]

OK......but what about the vast majority of users that just want an OS that basicly does almost everything for them concerning configuration, Software installation, and so on? Whether you care to believe it or not, most people don't want to sit around &quot;setting up&quot; their system......they want to hit the power button and be ready to go! Also, the software that is out here for Linux.......there's no problem with the actual software itself.....most of it is very good if not better than some made for Windows, BUT the number of titles is severely limited, and it's nowhere near as easy to install and configure as it is in Windows........those are the main problems that will continue to hold Linux away from many users until that is changed!

 

8 days until Mac OS X ships.


...as the skies opened the heavens shined upon the land. The hand of God extended from the clouds and offered a turquoise tribute. Lord Jobs accepted the divine gift and distributed it to the worthy. The foul amongst us hid from the light, forever keeping their Windows shut...

-- Jobs 11:19

 

[ToBeMe]

^^^^^Now That's Just SICK!!!^^^^:disgust:

 

[Eug]

PCResources, you seem to think that when we say for the home market Windows is better than Linux that we are saying Windows is great.

This is definitely not the case. Windows is bloatware and not 100% stable (although my main machine is on 24/7 - it goes weeks at a time before I install new software etc. and need to shut it down). However, just because Windows is not great does not make Linux great.

I agree with pm. If the Linux community actually starts listening to the general population maybe it will take off there. Truth be known I have PC friends, myself, and Mac friends alike all try Linux for personal use. We all installed it and then either promptly erased it or had for a little while trying to like, and then erased it.

I have reported that I had stability problems with StarOffice and your response is just that I must be wrong. And,

<< It can do almost everything that MS office can do, and certainly has more features than most of us would ever use, to state anything else is just dumb... >>

That is exactly what I'm talking about. It seems that you don't live in the corporate world. I do (sorta), and it's quite clear that you don't see the needs of the average user.

&quot;Pretty good&quot;, and &quot;almost all the functionality&quot;, and &quot;but it's free&quot; are just not good enough answers.

And while I think Windows will be eventually toppled, in the home market I don't hold much confidence that Linux will take over, at least not with the Linux community's attitude, which seems to me is &quot;If it's good enough for us power users, it's good enough for everyone else&quot;. One thing I've noticed (which sometimes it seems the entire &quot;Linux community&quot; has missed) is that for the average user, style, ease of use, and simplicity actually do matter. The average Linux app usually has none of these features.

 

[MGMorden]

PC Resources: In my post I stated that Linus has control over the kernel. But if all you've got is that kernel the you aren't doing crap. That's why I said I was talking about GNU/Linux rather than strictly Linux. The kernel by itself is the bash of the operating system but you've got to at least add a shell to even start using it (not to mention that almost none of the usability enhancements or apps or anything is coming from Linus). Linux the kernel does have Linus at the helm but GNU/Linux (Linux the whole shebang) has no head authority figure, as it should be.

 

[Syn]

<< 1. Love IE5, hate Mozilla/Netscape, I just hate opening an application when I want to surf, its so nice to browse the internet and your files on your HD in the same window! >>


Q:What is Konqueror?
A:It's a file manager/web browser
It came with Mandrake 7.2 why didnt you use it?

Want more games?Support Loki

{eidt:I came off like an arse and didnt mean to}

 

[PCResources]

<< It seems that you don't live in the corporate world. I do >>



No, i just own a company, so how could i be part of the corporate world?

I ask you which functions you miss in StarOffice, you never answer, is there one thingh that you use (unless you are talking about those &quot;great&quot; paper clip suggestions) in MS Office that is not availiable in StarOffice... If you do not like the looks of it, check Koffice out...

The thing is, how much does my company spend on office applications, 0$ how much does your company spend, and we are all quite happy with the functionality of StarOffice.

If you do not have the answers then do not question the validity of other statements...

Patrick Palm

PC Resources

 

[SiliconVandal]

Guys I think you are missing something that is obvious. When XP comes out, M$ isn't going to FORCE you to buy it, or even use it! You can stick to Win 98SE/Win2k without the added &quot;gayness&quot; of XP. Linux is a great solution, but it needs a lot of work.

 

[Eug]

PCResources, it's unfortunate that you do not consider my posts below valid, since I probably represent (in a way) the market much of this thread is talking about.

When was the last time you took your StarOffice presentations to your local print shop and paid them $4 per 35 mm slide to make 100 slides 2 days before you leave the country for your presentation? Or paid them $500 to print a poster? &quot;Almost compatible&quot; just ain't good enough. And of course, I prefer the ease of use of Office 2000. Is it a crime that I'm willing to spend the extra dough for something I prefer? Of course not. Is it a crime that you like StarOffice? No, of course not. It suits your needs and that should be fine. Heck, personally I don't even think the best version of Office is the Windows version. Lots of people (PC and Mac alike) prefer the more recent Office 2001 for Mac and are willing to pay big bux for it. And no, that isn't a crime either.

And, I must ask you, is your company a 10 employee company, a 50 person company, or is it a 1500 employee company? What I mean by the corporate world is something like the latter. I am glad you are doing well for yourself but administering 1000 PCs and making all the employees in such a company happy is different from administering 30 PC with employees you know all by name and have personally hired. (Heck, if you want to bring up owning a company, My friends and family have owned several companies - small ones - and I am a front line investor in a small startup. But that doesn't make my friends or myself computer gurus by default.)

 

[BD2003]

I dont think linux will ever be able to seriously compete with windows. Why? Cause its free. The best programmers are going to want to get paid for their work. It'll definintely be great for computer nerds to toy around with for some time, and its great for that, but otherwise, I dont really see the point. Honestly, what is so bad about windows? Is there really anyone here that DOESNT use at all? Mac users dont count. You cant load mac os onto a pc.

 

[PCResources]

<< PCResources, it's unfortunate that you do not consider my posts below valid >>



Read my post again, i did not state anything like that... i stated that if you do not have the answers, then you shouldn't question the validity of others statements...



<< When was the last time you took your StarOffice presentations to your local print shop and paid them $4 per 35 mm slide to make 100 slides 2 days before you leave the country for your presentation? Or paid them $500 to print a poster? &quot;Almost compatible&quot; just ain't good enough. >>



Actually, you can save your presentation in O2K format with StarOffice 5.2, with excellent results...



<< And, I must ask you, is your company a 10 employee company, a 50 person company, or is it a 1500 employee company? >>



A total of 3500 employees... PC Resources exists worldwide...





<< I am glad you are doing well for yourself but administering 1000 PCs and making all the employees in such a company happy is different from administering 30 PC with employees you know all by name and have personally hired. (Heck, if you want to bring up owning a company, My friends and family have owned several companies - small ones - and I am a front line investor in a small startup. But that doesn't make my friends or myself computer gurus by default.) >>



My answer ruined your point somewhat, now didn't it?

I have been in this business for more than 15 years now, i think i do have a clue what i am talking about, i deliver specifically designed systems for military purposes and for hospital usages, many of the different PC Resources companies over the world have introduced special designs and have shown high levels of research status.

You make it sound like there are no PC's with Linux sold at all, the truth is quite different, many computers delivered for companies are using Linux nowdays, IBM are increasing their Linux support and delivers Linux systems like never before, Linux is also challenging the handheld, as well as the notebook/laptop market...

linux is gaining popularity every day, linux is coming...

Patrick Palm

PC Resources

 

[DynaOne]

PC Resources,
I have to say - in all the companies I have visited (travel a few times a quarter), I have never seen a &quot;single&quot; linux workstation with StarOffice, much less a wide deployment. I know they exist - but I have not seen one. Given the not so young age of Linux - I can't believe it will overtake Windows.
DynaOne

 

[Eug]

PCResources,

From your statements you seem to be suggesting that you are running a company with 3500 employees and somehow you have managed to include only StarOffice and Linux in every single one of those company's workstations. I'll be honest, somehow I just don't believe that. If so, I congratulate you on your success, and your persistence with the Linux support.


<< I have been in this business for more than 15 years now, i think i do have a clue what i am talking about, i deliver specifically designed systems for military purposes and for hospital usages, many of the different PC Resources companies over the world have introduced special designs and have shown high levels of research status. >>

I don't dispute that. But just because you say Linux is good doesn't mean it's good for everyone.


<< You make it sound like there are no PC's with Linux sold at all, the truth is quite different, many computers delivered for companies are using Linux nowdays, IBM are increasing their Linux support and delivers Linux systems like never before, Linux is also challenging the handheld, as well as the notebook/laptop market... >>

Actually I never said that. Around here many PCs come configured with Linux. None of them are for the average employee though.


<< linux is gaining popularity every day, linux is coming... >>

Competition is good. However, the Linux community still needs to learn about the needs of the average computer user if they want any chance at all in competing in that market. So far they have quite a ways to go.