Microsoft "software choice" fraud?

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Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: lirion
But the only thing keeping them from offering computers with no operating system is the fact that they are still dealing with MS. If they stopped dealing with MS they could do whatever they wanted to. Of course starting a new product line increases prices, and that's why they won't do it. It seems to me that the problem is with Dell, and not MS.

It's not actually easy to work around a monopoly. Whether you decide to do business with a monopoly or not, their actions will affect you. And like I said, not doing business with MS would harm the OEM's. They would beed to work together to foece MS to agree on more acceptable terms. But I don't see that happening.

Like I said earlier: If the software could just compete on their merits alone, I wouldn't complain. But I complain because MS does it's best to prevent that from happening.
 

nord1899

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: LikeLinus01
<<I personally don't use too many MS products these days. I only use IE when absolutely forced too (prefer Mozilla), only use WMP to play back video that no one else can, and only use WinXP because I like to play games. >>

Ah see the problem here is you have CHOICE!!!! You choose to use Mozilla. You choose to use IE when you have to. You choose WinXP. Why? Because you like games! Linux does not provide a good operating platform for games. Again this is a major downfall of Linux. This is another reason why customers around the world use Microsoft.

Game makers simply do NOT make games for Linux. They make them for Microsoft. Now Gamemakers are not "forced" by Microsoft to make games only for the MS OS's. But because everyone uses MS they choose to only write it for one OS.

Now MS being a monopoly and their tactics they use..... Can they be blamed for the choices the customers have made for all these years? MS is just trying to stay alive in the most competative market around. Intel too had a stranglehold on the market till AMD actually producted a worthly product. No other development company/team has created anything close to MS OS's yet. That is the sole reason they are still a monopoly. That and people don't like change :)

Put yourself into the place of a game developer. You have the option of developing for one or more platforms. One platform has over 90% of the market. The other platforms individually have less than 1% of the market. Developing for more than one platform will increase your production costs by at least 50%. What do you do?

Now you see why there aren't many games for Linux. Not so much that it technically sucks as a gaming platform (although, XWindows is not the most friendly for graphics intensive games, I'll readily admit that), but that it doesn't have the user base. Of course, the user base won't grow unless it has games. Nice catch 22 or chicken-egg situation there isn't it?
 

nord1899

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,444
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Originally posted by: lirion
Originally posted by: IcemanJer
Originally posted by: lirion
I don't expect my MS products to be compatible with all the software I own. I don't have a problem.
I agree with you, but if an average computer user who doesn't know a lot sees an error message like that, how are they to know the truth behind it?

Learn more?

Uh-hunh. Tell the people who can't even program their VCR to record ER to learn more about computers? Sure....
 

LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
11,518
670
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My comments were not specifict towards you Nemesis. I could care less what you do or run. I'm talking about people as a whole on AT.



there were Dell desktops with Linux. MS forced Dell to kill Linux on the desktop. Dell complied.
Think you answered the whole "Microsoft Forced Dell" right there with the word COMPLIED. It was a choice. Dell followed through. Why did Dell follow through? Because they want to make money like the rest of the world. They want to have the ability to sell MS systems. If they did not like the decision, they could become a smaller MS driven shop, charge a bit more for their OS's (yet keep their computers the same price, just pass on the individual up'ed price of the new OS on to the customers). Dell chooses to keep their status as the 1# computer company. It was a CHOICE. They were not "Forced". They have the ability to restructure their lines if they want to. They would be charged more for Microsoft OS, sure, but they had a choice.

Have you tried to install a modenr Linux-distro? Boot it from the CD. A nice graphical installer appears. Enter few setting ans click "Next" few times. In 30 minutes you have working OS with GUI and all the apps installed. In short: so easy a brain-dead could do it.
Can't say i have. No reason to? My company is a Microsoft shop. I use Microsoft at home. It's much easier to use, it does everything i want it to. I can play games, i can use Office. I can do everything i need. Why change?


http://static.kdenews.org/mirrors/qwertz/kde31alpha/

Nice screenshots, aren't they :)

Not really, just Windows rip offs. I hate the toolbar at the bottom just sitting there floating and the one on the side. Thats all personal preferences though.
 

Wallydraigle

Banned
Nov 27, 2000
10,754
1
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Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: lirion
But the only thing keeping them from offering computers with no operating system is the fact that they are still dealing with MS. If they stopped dealing with MS they could do whatever they wanted to. Of course starting a new product line increases prices, and that's why they won't do it. It seems to me that the problem is with Dell, and not MS.

It's not actually easy to work around a monopoly. Whether you decide to do business with a monopoly or not, their actions will affect you. And like I said, not doing business with MS would harm the OEM's. They would beed to work together to foece MS to agree on more acceptable terms. But I don't see that happening.

Like I said earlier: If the software could just compete on their merits alone, I wouldn't complain. But I complain because MS does it's best to prevent that from happening.


Apple makes their own computers with their own OS. They are able to do this and turn a profit because their product appeals to some people (I guess;)) in favor of MS's offering. They don't deal with MS, MS deals with them. Dell, or other OEMs could do this as well, but it wouldn't be as lucrative. The only reason MS is as big as it is, is because OEMs like Dell give them the power to be. In exchange for money. It's proifitable for OEMs to kiss MS booty.
 

IcemanJer

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2001
4,307
0
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Originally posted by: lirion
Apple makes their own computers with their own OS. They are able to do this and turn a profit because their product appeals to some people (I guess;)) in favor of MS's offering. They don't deal with MS, MS deals with them. Dell, or other OEMs could do this as well, but it wouldn't be as lucrative. The only reason MS is as big as it is, is because OEMs like Dell give them the power to be. In exchange for money. It's proifitable for OEMs to kiss MS booty.
Actually, Microsoft weren't gonna make Office for Macs until Microsoft was forced to (I think it was a settlement from a suit filed by Apple). If that didn't happen, Apple would've suffered.
 

nord1899

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,444
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Originally posted by: IcemanJer
Originally posted by: lirion
Apple makes their own computers with their own OS. They are able to do this and turn a profit because their product appeals to some people (I guess;)) in favor of MS's offering. They don't deal with MS, MS deals with them. Dell, or other OEMs could do this as well, but it wouldn't be as lucrative. The only reason MS is as big as it is, is because OEMs like Dell give them the power to be. In exchange for money. It's proifitable for OEMs to kiss MS booty.
Actually, Microsoft weren't gonna make Office for Macs until Microsoft was forced to (I think it was a settlement from a suit filed by Apple). If that didn't happen, Apple would've suffered.

I think it happened around the time MS gave Apple $100 million. It was part of the "See we have competition!" deal a while ago.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,407
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the choice offered in the computer market today is like the choice offered by mine workers in a factory town at the turn of the 20th century.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,407
8,595
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Originally posted by: nord1899
Originally posted by: IcemanJer
Originally posted by: lirion
Apple makes their own computers with their own OS. They are able to do this and turn a profit because their product appeals to some people (I guess;)) in favor of MS's offering. They don't deal with MS, MS deals with them. Dell, or other OEMs could do this as well, but it wouldn't be as lucrative. The only reason MS is as big as it is, is because OEMs like Dell give them the power to be. In exchange for money. It's proifitable for OEMs to kiss MS booty.
Actually, Microsoft weren't gonna make Office for Macs until Microsoft was forced to (I think it was a settlement from a suit filed by Apple). If that didn't happen, Apple would've suffered.

I think it happened around the time MS gave Apple $100 million. It was part of the "See we have competition!" deal a while ago.

MS gave corel a few million too. wordperfect, anyone?
 

nord1899

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,444
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: nord1899
Originally posted by: IcemanJer
Originally posted by: lirion
Apple makes their own computers with their own OS. They are able to do this and turn a profit because their product appeals to some people (I guess;)) in favor of MS's offering. They don't deal with MS, MS deals with them. Dell, or other OEMs could do this as well, but it wouldn't be as lucrative. The only reason MS is as big as it is, is because OEMs like Dell give them the power to be. In exchange for money. It's proifitable for OEMs to kiss MS booty.
Actually, Microsoft weren't gonna make Office for Macs until Microsoft was forced to (I think it was a settlement from a suit filed by Apple). If that didn't happen, Apple would've suffered.

I think it happened around the time MS gave Apple $100 million. It was part of the "See we have competition!" deal a while ago.

MS gave corel a few million too. wordperfect, anyone?

And shortly after that, Corel's version of Linux was discontinued. Wonder why?
 

RGN

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2000
6,623
6
81
Originally posted by: ffmcobalt
I dunno what the fsck everyone is bitching about. There's Windows. There's Unix. There's Linux. There's Lindows (out yet?).

If you bought a Toyota, would you be pissed that it didn't come with a 5.0 liter 302 engine block made by Ford?? No.

All you anti-microsoft people need to STFU and use the other options that you have available. MS is simply successful because they have product that works and is easy to use.

<mumble>
....stupid sonofa....
....motherless goat...
...damn idiots...
</mumble>



http://slashdot.org/articles/02/08/10/1420208.shtml?tid=109

Nik, where is my OS choice here? I cannot buy a computer without a MS OS on it.
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
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Originally posted by: RGN
Originally posted by: ffmcobalt
I dunno what the fsck everyone is bitching about. There's Windows. There's Unix. There's Linux. There's Lindows (out yet?).

If you bought a Toyota, would you be pissed that it didn't come with a 5.0 liter 302 engine block made by Ford?? No.

All you anti-microsoft people need to STFU and use the other options that you have available. MS is simply successful because they have product that works and is easy to use.

<mumble>
....stupid sonofa....
....motherless goat...
...damn idiots...
</mumble>



http://slashdot.org/articles/02/08/10/1420208.shtml?tid=109

Nik, where is my OS choice here? I cannot buy a computer without a MS OS on it.

Then you learn and build your own. Or you buy one with an OS and learn to format.

...damn baby :p

nik
 

IcemanJer

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2001
4,307
0
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Originally posted by: ffmcobalt
Then you learn and build your own. Or you buy one with an OS and learn to format.
You think a home user who doesn't know how to program his/her own VCR is able to build their own computer? How about a company who's buying 50 computers to be used in the office? Do you think they have the time and resources to mess with building their own computers and setting them up?
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
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Originally posted by: IcemanJer
Originally posted by: ffmcobalt
Then you learn and build your own. Or you buy one with an OS and learn to format.
You think a home user who doesn't know how to program his/her own VCR is able to build their own computer? How about a company who's buying 50 computers to be used in the office? Do you think they have the time and resources to mess with building their own computers and setting them up?

THAT'S NOT FSCKING MICROSOFT'S PROBLEM!!!!!

nik
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,407
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126
now, i'm not going to say that an OS monopoly is a particularly horrible thing, as deep fragmentation would be worse (0 operability is worse than force operability). in fact, its sort of a natural monopoly (well, it was when the market was small, now theres probably enough room for 2 or 3 large ones, though that hurts your interopability). the bad thing is when MS abuses its monopoly position, of which it has been convicted several times. such as exclusive contracts. when faced between a noose and doing what MS says, you do what MS says. exclusive contracts and bundling killed what was a promising browser market (the browser, of course, being the PC's computer's next killer app that people started looking for back in 1994 or 1993, and has proven to be the biggest killer app ever). exclusive contracts and contracts that forced companies to pay not for windows units shipped but computer units shipped killed off the last major push by another company to offer an alternative PC OS (see OS/2 warp). if EULAs were actually enforced it would kill many linux installs (since you are violating the contract to install a different OS and dual boot). if this palladium thing goes through i shudder to think what would happen. i don't mean to be an extremist but the last time one monolithic organization controlled the flow of information was the dark ages.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
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This is from the orginial district court and upheld by the appellate court, broken into key parts (now, if you can disprove any of this, please be sure to submit your post to Microsoft, their team of lawyers is unable to convince what is now the third court that they are right):


I. SECTION TWO OF THE SHERMAN ACT


A. Maintenance of Monopoly Power by Anticompetitive Means

Section 2 of the Sherman Act declares that it is unlawful for a person or firm to "monopolize . . . any part of the trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations . . . ." 15 U.S.C. § 2. This language operates to limit the means by which a firm may lawfully either acquire or perpetuate monopoly power. Specifically, a firm violates § 2 if it attains or preserves monopoly power through anticompetitive acts. See United States v. Grinnell Corp., 384 U.S. 563, 570-71 (1966) ("The offense of monopoly power under § 2 of the Sherman Act has two elements: (1) the possession of monopoly power in the relevant market and (2) the willful acquisition or maintenance of that power as distinguished from growth or development as a consequence of a superior product, business acumen, or historic accident."); Eastman Kodak Co. v. Image Technical Services, Inc., 504 U.S. 451, 488 (1992) (Scalia, J., dissenting) ("Our § 2 monopolization doctrines are . . . directed to discrete situations in which a defendant's possession of substantial market power, combined with his exclusionary or anticompetitive behavior, threatens to defeat or forestall the corrective forces of competition and thereby sustain or extend the defendant's agglomeration of power.").

1. Monopoly Power

The threshold element of a § 2 monopolization offense being "the possession of monopoly power in the relevant market," Grinnell, 384 U.S. at 570

In this case, the plaintiffs postulated the relevant market as being the worldwide licensing of Intel-compatible PC operating systems. Whether this zone of commercial activity actually qualifies as a market, "monopolization of which may be illegal," depends on whether it includes all products "reasonably interchangeable by consumers for the same purposes

The Court has already found, based on the evidence in this record, that there are currently no products - and that there are not likely to be any in the near future - that a significant percentage of computer users worldwide could substitute for Intel-compatible PC operating systems without incurring substantial costs. Findings ¶¶ 18-29. The Court has further found that no firm not currently marketing Intel-compatible PC operating systems could start doing so in a way that would, within a reasonably short period of time, present a significant percentage of such consumers with a viable alternative to existing Intel-compatible PC operating systems. Id. ¶¶ 18, 30-32. From these facts, the Court has inferred that if a single firm or cartel controlled the licensing of all Intel-compatible PC operating systems worldwide, it could set the price of a license substantially above that which would be charged in a competitive market - and leave the price there for a significant period of time - without losing so many customers as to make the action unprofitable. Id. ¶ 18. This inference, in turn, has led the Court to find that the licensing of all Intel-compatible PC operating systems worldwide does in fact constitute the relevant market in the context of the plaintiffs' monopoly maintenance claim

The plaintiffs proved at trial that Microsoft possesses a dominant, persistent, and increasing share of the relevant market. Microsoft's share of the worldwide market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems currently exceeds ninety-five percent, and the firm's share would stand well above eighty percent even if the Mac OS were included in the market. Id. ¶ 35. The plaintiffs also proved that the applications barrier to entry protects Microsoft's dominant market share. Id. ¶¶ 36-52. This barrier ensures that no Intel-compatible PC operating system other than Windows can attract significant consumer demand, and the barrier would operate to the same effect even if Microsoft held its prices substantially above the competitive level for a protracted period of time. Id. Together, the proof of dominant market share and the existence of a substantial barrier to effective entry create the presumption that Microsoft enjoys monopoly power.

2. Maintenance of Monopoly Power by Anticompetitive Means

In a § 2 case, once it is proved that the defendant possesses monopoly power in a relevant market, liability for monopolization depends on a showing that the defendant used anticompetitive methods to achieve or maintain its position.

If the evidence reveals a significant exclusionary impact in the relevant market, the defendant's conduct will be labeled "anticompetitive" - and liability will attach - unless the defendant comes forward with specific, procompetitive business motivations that explain the full extent of its exclusionary conduct

If the defendant with monopoly power consciously antagonized its customers by making its products less attractive to them - or if it incurred other costs, such as large outlays of development capital and forfeited opportunities to derive revenue from it - with no prospect of compensation other than the erection or preservation of barriers against competition by equally efficient firms, the Court may deem the defendant's conduct "predatory."

In this case, Microsoft early on recognized middleware as the Trojan horse that, once having, in effect, infiltrated the applications barrier, could enable rival operating systems to enter the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems unimpeded. Simply put, middleware threatened to demolish Microsoft's coveted monopoly power. Alerted to the threat, Microsoft strove over a period of approximately four years to prevent middleware technologies from fostering the development of enough full-featured, cross-platform applications to erode the applications barrier. In pursuit of this goal, Microsoft sought to convince developers to concentrate on Windows-specific APIs and ignore interfaces exposed by the two incarnations of middleware that posed the greatest threat, namely, Netscape's Navigator Web browser and Sun's implementation of the Java technology. Microsoft's campaign succeeded in preventing - for several years, and perhaps permanently - Navigator and Java from fulfilling their potential to open the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems to competition on the merits. Findings ¶¶ 133, 378. Because Microsoft achieved this result through exclusionary acts that lacked procompetitive justification, the Court deems Microsoft's conduct the maintenance of monopoly power by anticompetitive means.

c. Microsoft's Conduct Taken As a Whole


In essence, Microsoft mounted a deliberate assault upon entrepreneurial efforts that, left to rise or fall on their own merits, could well have enabled the introduction of competition into the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems.

While the evidence does not prove that they would have succeeded absent Microsoft's actions, it does reveal that Microsoft placed an oppressive thumb on the scale of competitive fortune, thereby effectively guaranteeing its continued dominance in the relevant market. More broadly, Microsoft's anticompetitive actions trammeled the competitive process through which the computer software industry generally stimulates innovation and conduces to the optimum benefit of consumers.

Viewing Microsoft's conduct as a whole also reinforces the conviction that it was predacious. Microsoft paid vast sums of money, and renounced many millions more in lost revenue every year, in order to induce firms to take actions that would help enhance Internet Explorer's share of browser usage at Navigator's expense. Id. ¶ 139. These outlays cannot be explained as subventions to maximize return from Internet Explorer. Microsoft has no intention of ever charging for licenses to use or distribute its browser. Id. ¶¶ 137-38. Moreover, neither the desire to bolster demand for Windows nor the prospect of ancillary revenues from Internet Explorer can explain the lengths to which Microsoft has gone. In fact, Microsoft has expended wealth and foresworn opportunities to realize more in a manner and to an extent that can only represent a rational investment if its purpose was to perpetuate the applications barrier to entry



Remember, this is written by a Reagan appointee. Judge Penfield Jackson was known for being very anti-government involvement in industry; and Microsoft cheered the fact that he was chosen to hear their case. 6 long years later, the Judge had come to see the awful truth.

The full document is here for anyone who wants to read it:

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f4400/4469.htm
 

IcemanJer

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2001
4,307
0
0
Originally posted by: ffmcobalt
THAT'S NOT FSCKING MICROSOFT'S PROBLEM!!!!!
fsck yeah it's Microsoft's problem. If they didn't do what they're doing to the OEMs, these corporate users will have a choice when they buy computers from the OEMs whether or not to use Windows. Sure, the majority may still choose Windows over Linux or whatever other operating system that the OEM offers, but the important thing is that they would have a choice. Microsoft used their monopolistic power to stifle competition. And they've been convicted in court of law numerous times.
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
Originally posted by: IcemanJer
Originally posted by: ffmcobalt
THAT'S NOT FSCKING MICROSOFT'S PROBLEM!!!!!
fsck yeah it's Microsoft's problem. If they didn't do what they're doing to the OEMs, these corporate users will have a choice when they buy computers from the OEMs whether or not to use Windows. Sure, the majority may still choose Windows over Linux or whatever other operating system that the OEM offers, but the important thing is that they would have a choice. Microsoft used their monopolistic power to stifle competition. And they've been convicted in court of law numerous times.

If Windows is the "only thing available" for purchase with a complete system, then the company needs to purchase the systems ahead of time and make their own changes to the systems. The company's poor planning and wishing to be baby fed to complete their own companies needs.

nik
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
Iceman is correct.

Here are the findings of fact which establish the truths of the case:

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f2600/2613.htm

Here are the conclusions of law which take those facts and determine what laws were broken:

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f4400/4469.htm

Here is the final judgement which takes the conclusions of law and suggest a remedy (punishment):

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f4900/4909.htm

The case then went to appeals where the appellate court found BOTH the findings of fact and conclusions of law to be perfectly acceptable. They said that teh final judgement did NOT do enough to ensure Microsoft would not be able to continue BREAKING THE LAW, and sent it back to the district court for a new ruling. Microsoft was able to get the origninal judge removed from the case, and a new judge was assigned. She is even less tolerant than the previous judge though, as is best evidenced by Microsoft starting to finally (7 years later) offer concessions.
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
Didn't the judge get dismissed or something because he was found to be bias or something like that? What was the story on that one?

nik
 

IcemanJer

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2001
4,307
0
0
Originally posted by: ffmcobalt
If Windows is the "only thing available" for purchase with a complete system, then the company needs to purchase the systems ahead of time and make their own changes to the systems. The company's poor planning and wishing to be baby fed to complete their own companies needs.
Why should the companies pay for Microsoft operating system licenses if they aren't ever going to use them? If the companies doesn't pay the licenses, that cost is shouldered by the OEMs, and then why should OEMs pay Microsoft licensing fees for operating systems that they don't sell?

You can't say it's the company's poor planning fault. What if they don't have the technical resources to do all that? Say I'm a furniture company and I want to buy a few systems so I can put up a website for my products, or keep track of inventory. I go to an OEM so that I can have the computer prepared and work right out of the box. I don't have the knowledge, nor would I want to spend the money just to hire someone with the knowledge, to change the system as it is delivered to me.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
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Like I said, the judge was a Reagan appointee and well known for his anti-government involvement in business views. After sitting in the courtroom for 6 years he had seen enough. Microsoft stalled the case many many times. Microsoft faked demos to show that Windows ran faster with IE (I say faked because they indeed rigged them, Windows runs faster without IE). Internal memos contradicted testimony. Even with all that the Judge couldnt vacate his core belief, and after the findings of fact and conclusions of law (when it was clear MS had to start bargaining otherwise he would come down on them); he gave them 6 months to work out a settlement so he wouldnt have to issue a judgement. He got one of the nation's top arbitrators in there, and MS knowing they had been found guilty, and were just awaiting the punishment phase, WOULD NOT offer any concessions whatsoever in getting an out of court settlement. The Judge issued his ruling, and the appellate court agreed with the findings of fact and conclusions of law, but said the final judgement wouldnt be enough to stop Microsoft. They said they needed something that would show conclusively that it would stop MS. When they sent it back, MS asked for a new judge because of comments he had made AFTER the trial was over. He compared Gates to Napoleon, amongst other things. There wasnt a bias. He was disgusted with them after 6 years. They felt that it would be better to have a different judge handle it, but from all indications, Judge Kelley-Kotellar is going to come down even harder on them.

While the case was going on, I read transcripts weekly. I kept tabs on many of the briefs submitted to the case. Of course, Ive read the rulings a few times. There is NOBODY who can sit and look at all the evidence and not see what MS has done wrong. Its a mountain of evidence, and they dont even try to hide it.
 

Circlenaut

Platinum Member
Mar 22, 2001
2,175
5
81
So why don't we combine and the companies combine to make a huge lawsuit to microsoft so we can ask them anything we want.
 

IcemanJer

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2001
4,307
0
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Originally posted by: shadowmind359
So why don't we combine and the companies combine to make a huge lawsuit to microsoft so we can ask them anything we want.
Class action lawsuit is probably the hardest suit to do, and I don't think there are any law firms that would dare to take this daunting task since their benefit is far less than the work required. And also, class actions usually don't reach the court room as most are settled outside.

I might be wrong.. my legal knownledge isn't as much as I'd like.