microsoft planning on banning chrome and firefox from windows 8

[rockyct]

This has nothing to do with desktop mode or ARM. Chrome and Firefox are making Metro versions, which apparently will never see use on Win8 tablets.

From the article:

I'm really tired of people rushing to excuse and defend all these terrible decisions MS is making with Win8.

This has everything to do with ARM. Windows RT IS Windows ARM. Windows RT is NOT Windows 8. An Intel based Windows 8 tablet will not have any of these restrictions.

I'm really tired of people using FUD to be overly critical of Microsoft for following the Apple set trend of tightly restricted devices.

 

[Nothinman]

This has everything to do with ARM. Windows RT IS Windows ARM. Windows RT is NOT Windows 8. An Intel based Windows 8 tablet will not have any of these restrictions.

I'm really tired of people using FUD to be overly critical of Microsoft for following the Apple set trend of tightly restricted devices.

I wouldn't call it FUD. If they think they can get away with applying it to the Intel builds later on I'm sure they will. Just because Apple started a trend doesn't mean it's a good thing, in fact it usually means the exact opposite. People have complained about Apple doing it, but no one really cares because it's Apple. If MS follows suit the effect will be felt by everyone and no one will like it.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

This has everything to do with ARM. Windows RT IS Windows ARM. Windows RT is NOT Windows 8. An Intel based Windows 8 tablet will not have any of these restrictions.

I'm really tired of people using FUD to be overly critical of Microsoft for following the Apple set trend of tightly restricted devices.

ARM isn't keeping Chrome or Firefox off of MS tablets. Microsoft is. And poop on Apple if they're doing the same.

 

[rockyct]

I wouldn't call it FUD. If they think they can get away with applying it to the Intel builds later on I'm sure they will. Just because Apple started a trend doesn't mean it's a good thing, in fact it usually means the exact opposite. People have complained about Apple doing it, but no one really cares because it's Apple. If MS follows suit the effect will be felt by everyone and no one will like it.

I think you're missing the point over the ARM tablets. The goal is to make a Windows appliance for the masses similar to an iPad. These devices are not for computer enthusiasts. These are the types of devices the majority of people want, rightly or wrongly. Apple hit that market perfectly with the iPad and now Microsoft is making some huge gambles to make sure it doesn't loose the market forever. I think the hang up here is that the UI will be the same for Windows 8 computers and Windows RT devices and that makes people think they are the same. They are not the same, and here is one of those defining areas.

However, to suggest that Windows 8 will prevent Chrome/Firefox is complete bull shit and FUD. Locking down Windows RT devices isn't a "first step" in locking down Windows computers. Even Apple didn't ban Chrome/Firefox on OSX.

ARM isn't keeping Chrome or Firefox off of MS tablets. Microsoft is. And poop on Apple if they're doing the same.

ARM chips aren't directly preventing Chrome and Firefox by any means. However, Microsoft IS making ARM devices into Windows appliances for the masses.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Just another reason to tell MS that they can take Windows 8 and shove it straight up their ass.

 

[sandorski]

I remember when MS banned Java....I suspect this might be similar.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

ARM chips aren't directly preventing Chrome and Firefox by any means. However, Microsoft IS making ARM devices into Windows appliances for the masses.

That's your point? The masses shouldn't use Chrome or Firefox? Nice of MS to make that decision for them. And folks like you to defend this BS.

The masses already ARE using Chrome and Firefox.

 

[Nothinman]

Dupe post

 

[Nothinman]

I think you're missing the point over the ARM tablets. The goal is to make a Windows appliance for the masses similar to an iPad. These devices are not for computer enthusiasts. These are the types of devices the majority of people want, rightly or wrongly. Apple hit that market perfectly with the iPad and now Microsoft is making some huge gambles to make sure it doesn't loose the market forever. I think the hang up here is that the UI will be the same for Windows 8 computers and Windows RT devices and that makes people think they are the same. They are not the same, and here is one of those defining areas.

I'm not missing the point at all. Even Apple has loosened their grip on certain apps in the App Store, one of which is 3rd party browsers. Why would MS start way at the beginning when Apple already tried and gave up on similar restrictions?

However, to suggest that Windows 8 will prevent Chrome/Firefox is complete bull shit and FUD. Locking down Windows RT devices isn't a "first step" in locking down Windows computers. Even Apple didn't ban Chrome/Firefox on OSX.

In the strictest sense, sure it is FUD. I Fear that MS is trying to abuse their monopoly on the desktop market to more control the tablet market and restrict my ability to use the hardware I purchase. I have Uncertainty about whether they'll learn from the mistakes that they and Apple have made in the past. And I have serious Doubt that what they're attempting is good for the consumer or the market.

But none of that makes my concerns less valid, in fact it makes them more valid in my mind. The term FUD is generally reserved for fear mongering and lies, which doesn't seem to be the case here. If we all just sat back and took what was given to us then we'd all be using IBM PCs that cost at least 5x what a normal PC does currently.

ARM chips aren't directly preventing Chrome and Firefox by any means. However, Microsoft IS making ARM devices into Windows appliances for the masses.

Regardless of the term you use to describe them, I want control over my hardware. I'm not willing to put up with the restrictions that Apple has placed on their shit so I'm definitely not willing to put up with it from MS. Just because a PC is locked down doesn't automatically make it a single purpose appliance and neither does having an ARM chip instead of Intel. If you really think additional restrictions on PCs is a good thing, you're either a corporate shill or you haven't learned from the computing world's past mistakes either.

 

[ultimatebob]

DailyTech really loves their dramatic headlines, don't they?

If they were blocking Chrome or Firefox on x86 Windows 8, now THAT would be news. Who cares that they're planning on blocking it for the ARM version. Nobody is using it yet, anyway.... and I expect Windows 8 tablets to be about as popular as Windows Phone 7 and the Zune were 🙂

 

[rockyct]

That's your point? The masses shouldn't use Chrome or Firefox? Nice of MS to make that decision for them. And folks like you to defend this BS.

The masses already ARE using Chrome and Firefox.

Chrome/Firefox usages on iOS devices: 0% Doesn't seem like the average person gives a shit about Firefox/Chome.

I'm not missing the point at all. Even Apple has loosened their grip on certain apps in the App Store, one of which is 3rd party browsers. Why would MS start way at the beginning when Apple already tried and gave up on similar restrictions?


In the strictest sense, sure it is FUD. I Fear that MS is trying to abuse their monopoly on the desktop market to more control the tablet market and restrict my ability to use the hardware I purchase. I have Uncertainty about whether they'll learn from the mistakes that they and Apple have made in the past. And I have serious Doubt that what they're attempting is good for the consumer or the market.

But none of that makes my concerns less valid, in fact it makes them more valid in my mind. The term FUD is generally reserved for fear mongering and lies, which doesn't seem to be the case here. If we all just sat back and took what was given to us then we'd all be using IBM PCs that cost at least 5x what a normal PC does currently.



Regardless of the term you use to describe them, I want control over my hardware. I'm not willing to put up with the restrictions that Apple has placed on their shit so I'm definitely not willing to put up with it from MS. Just because a PC is locked down doesn't automatically make it a single purpose appliance and neither does having an ARM chip instead of Intel. If you really think additional restrictions on PCs is a good thing, you're either a corporate shill or you haven't learned from the computing world's past mistakes either.

You are fear mongering and lying because these ARM devices are following the Apple-like approach of the iPad while true Windows 8 PCs are not being affected. I heard almost no whining about not having Firefox/Chrome on them, and yet everyone loves to bash Microsoft so here we go again.

You are also misleading what I want. I don't want restrictions on ARM devices (look at my first post) but with all the completely incorrect information here, I am explaining what they are really doing and why they are. I don't own an iPad/iPhone precisely because of these restrictions and I probably won't be getting a Win RT device either. I plan on getting an Intel base Win8 slate if those get good enough battery life.

However, whether you believe it or not, the computer industry is following Apple right now and the masses are loving it. Instead of going after Microsoft with Windows RT being the fifth major OS to run on ARM devices (Apple/Android/WebOS/Blackberry), go after the market leader. Going after Micrsoft now, after ignoring Apple, isn't really going to change shit even if Microsoft gives in.

 

[Nothinman]

Chrome/Firefox usages on iOS devices: 0% Doesn't seem like the average person gives a shit about Firefox/Chome.

So the iOS userbase is the metric for average persons now? It was my understanding that Android has already beat out iOS in pure users because of the sheer amount of Android phones being produced.

FF has a FAQ that they won't port to iOS because Apple's agreement requires that any browsers use their JavaScript engine and they're not willing to do that. However, I've used FF on my Android phones and it's a pig. They have a long way to go before it's actually usable.

I'd guess that there was no "outrage" or stories on it because no one really gives a shit about iOS. The amount of people using Windows in some form is 10x larger, if not more. Even though it's currently only relegated to the ARM port, that's very easily changed and I'm sure MS would love to do that. People view Windows a lot different than they do anything from Apple. They expect control and compatibility with Windows but they no not to expect it from Apple products.

You are fear mongering and lying because these ARM devices are following the Apple-like approach of the iPad while true Windows 8 PCs are not being affected. I heard almost no whining about not having Firefox/Chrome on them, and yet everyone loves to bash Microsoft so here we go again.

The Apple-like approach is effectively a pox on computing and we shouldn't have even let them do it, but their users aren't technical enough to realize what they're giving up.

You are also misleading what I want. I don't want restrictions on ARM devices (look at my first post) but with all the completely incorrect information here, I am explaining what they are really doing and why they are. I don't own an iPad/iPhone precisely because of these restrictions and I probably won't be getting a Win RT device either. I plan on getting an Intel base Win8 slate if those get good enough battery life.

However, whether you believe it or not, the computer industry is following Apple right now and the masses are loving it. Instead of going after Microsoft with Windows RT being the fifth major OS to run on ARM devices (Apple/Android/WebOS/Blackberry), go after the market leader. Going after Micrsoft now, after ignoring Apple, isn't really going to change shit even if Microsoft gives in.

I don't believe I said anything about what you want in any of my posts. I understand what and why they're doing it and I'm trying to explain why a big deal should be made about it so that they stop before they get started.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Since this is going to affect ARM based tablets only, It's going to affect what? 5 people?

Windows 8 is going to be the 21st century's Windows Me.

 

[rockyct]

So the iOS userbase is the metric for average persons now? It was my understanding that Android has already beat out iOS in pure users because of the sheer amount of Android phones being produced.

FF has a FAQ that they won't port to iOS because Apple's agreement requires that any browsers use their JavaScript engine and they're not willing to do that. However, I've used FF on my Android phones and it's a pig. They have a long way to go before it's actually usable.

I'd guess that there was no "outrage" or stories on it because no one really gives a shit about iOS. The amount of people using Windows in some form is 10x larger, if not more. Even though it's currently only relegated to the ARM port, that's very easily changed and I'm sure MS would love to do that. People view Windows a lot different than they do anything from Apple. They expect control and compatibility with Windows but they no not to expect it from Apple products.



The Apple-like approach is effectively a pox on computing and we shouldn't have even let them do it, but their users aren't technical enough to realize what they're giving up.



I don't believe I said anything about what you want in any of my posts. I understand what and why they're doing it and I'm trying to explain why a big deal should be made about it so that they stop before they get started.

Like I said, Apple drives the market, everyone else follows. They are the darling child of the tech industry and the media is completely in bed with them. I think if you really want to tackle the locking down of new devices, you need to start with Apple. If they ease restrictions, I'm sure Microsoft will give in as well.

For better or worse, the iPhone and the iPad have become successful because they are so limited. By cutting out the "extras", they are able to make a stupid simple UI that everyone's parents can use.

This is off topic here, but what Microsoft is trying to do is make a play for an ecosystem where one major UI can be used on many devices for different markets. The idea is that when a person buys a PC this fall, they'll use the new Win8 OS and get used to it. When they feel like getting a tablet or phone, they can then get one that looks and feels like their PC at home. When they turn it on, the Microsoft account will setup Skydrive, connect to Facebook/Twitter/Gmail, let them download any of their apps, and get it all running as soon as they log in. That's pretty cool if it works, which will will have to see. There are privacy issues here of course, but frankly, I trust Microsoft with my info far more than Google or Apple right now.

Whether or not Win8 fails, I think we're moving toward a place where most of a person's stuff (documents, music, pictures, video) will be mainly stored in the cloud. People will just use whatever device is most convenient at that time with what they are trying to do. PCs will still be the "workstation" where it's the best way to do "content creation" stuff. Tablets, phones, TVs will still be able to access that data and will be used when they make the most sense. PCs will still be an important part of this ecosystem, but they won't be as important as they are today. I don't fear the extinction of the PC because they are a very flexible tool that can't be replaced by an iPad completely.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

For better or worse, the iPhone and the iPad have become successful because they are so limited. By cutting out the "extras", they are able to make a stupid simple UI that everyone's parents can use.

They aren't making people who haven't grown up using computers anymore. Designing oversimplified interfaces that everyone's parents can use is designing for an ever less relevent market and pretty backward thinking. It's like forcing one of those jitterbug cell phones for old people on everyone else.

 

[taltamir]

The title is misleading. It should say "microsoft planning on giving the EU a billion dollars in anti trust fines... as well as japan and korea and US and..." (I don't remember all 7 that nailed intel on anti trust but I remember everyone wanted a slice of that delicious fine pie... Of which the victims do not see a cent btw, it goes to the governments in question)

 

[MrChad]

The title is misleading. It should say "microsoft planning on giving the EU a billion dollars in anti trust fines... as well as japan and korea and US and..." (I don't remember all 7 that nailed intel on anti trust but I remember everyone wanted a slice of that delicious fine pie... Of which the victims do not see a cent btw, it goes to the governments in question)

If they apply the same rules to x86 builds of Windows 8, then there's a legitimate case for anti-trust fines. As it stands, this is no different than the onerous rules that Apple imposes in its own "walled garden" iOS environment.

 

[MrChad]

They aren't making people who haven't grown up using computers anymore. Designing oversimplified interfaces that everyone's parents can use is designing for an ever less relevent market and pretty backward thinking. It's like forcing one of those jitterbug cell phones for old people on everyone else.

There is certainly a market for power users, developers and others who like to tinker with the inner details of their computer, but the majority of users prefer functionality, security and ease-of-use over infinite configurability and customization. The market has been moving in that direction for 20+ years now.

 

[taltamir]

If they apply the same rules to x86 builds of Windows 8, then there's a legitimate case for anti-trust fines. As it stands, this is no different than the onerous rules that Apple imposes in its own "walled garden" iOS environment.

Apple is the greatest violator of the spirit of anti competitive laws. only reason they haven't been busted is because they have such insignificant market shares and revenue.

And MS was busted before for anti trust. In fact they have been busted for this very same anti trust.

That being said, they have successfully killed netscape by the time penalties kicked in, so they paid them and moved on with one less competitor.

 

[MrChad]

Apple is the greatest violator of the spirit of anti competitive laws. only reason they haven't been busted is because they have such insignificant market shares and revenue.

And MS was busted before for anti trust. In fact they have been busted for this very same anti trust.

That being said, they have successfully killed netscape by the time penalties kicked in, so they paid them and moved on with one less competitor.

But that's my point. Microsoft has no market share at all in the ARM market. To my knowledge this is their first OS for ARM-based devices. How can there be an anti-trust claim when there's no monopoly?

 

[taltamir]

But that's my point. Microsoft has no market share at all in the ARM market.

Turns out governments care for overall marketshare in all markets rather then in individual marketspaces.

Apple is a pretty big player in some niche markets but never gets busted. Although that might also have had to do with the reality distortion field.

MS is the de facto monopoly in the desktop and laptop OS, and as such are a highly visible monopoly, and as such they might get busted on this even though they have no monopoly in that market.

The laws don't specify they need to be a monopoly, its just that being rich, and to a lesser degree being a monopoly, makes you a good target for cash hungry executioners of the laws.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

There is certainly a market for power users, developers and others who like to tinker with the inner details of their computer, but the majority of users prefer functionality, security and ease-of-use over infinite configurability and customization. The market has been moving in that direction for 20+ years now.

Functionality and ease of use are often at odds, and it looks like MS is prioritizing the latter at the cost of the former with Win8, which is the source of a lot of this anger towards it and them. One app at a time. In 2012. On a 23+ inch screen. You call that moving in a direction of functionality?

 

[taltamir]

Functionality and ease of use are often at odds, and it looks like MS is prioritizing the latter at the cost of the former with Win8, which is the source of a lot of this anger towards it and them. One app at a time. In 2012. On a 23+ inch screen. You call that moving in a direction of functionality?

I think its neither ease of use nor functionality.
MS and other such big companies are ruled by marketing people, and they are always idiots who know nothing and think they know everything, and they always think users are idiots. They always have weird notions of what users want, and they always insist things get done their way.

This nonsense with metro is not the first nor last time MS did something nobody wanted and everyone hated... its as if they forget they need to sell this stuff and that they should check what customers want.

The last big revolt was with vista, MS focused on features nobody wanted and destroyed what everyone did want. The result was backlash and they then asked people what they DID want and the result of that was win7.

Metro is a worse vista than vista itself. it will be a flop... and in a year we will see win9 which is basically win8 SP1 with a different name to avoid the bad rep which gives users what they want instead of whas MS marketing idiots think they want.

 

[Nothinman]

But that's my point. Microsoft has no market share at all in the ARM market. To my knowledge this is their first OS for ARM-based devices. How can there be an anti-trust claim when there's no monopoly?

Because they're attempting to leverage their desktop monopoly to get into the tablet market. Why else would they shoehorn Metro into Win8? The current distinction just seems to be the fact that it's an ARM build, but what happens if Atom tablets take off and now you have x86 Win8 on tablets?

Like I said, Apple drives the market, everyone else follows. They are the darling child of the tech industry and the media is completely in bed with them. I think if you really want to tackle the locking down of new devices, you need to start with Apple. If they ease restrictions, I'm sure Microsoft will give in as well.

That's true for the consumer market, but not for the enterprise where MS will surely be pushing hard.

 

[MrChad]

Functionality and ease of use are often at odds, and it looks like MS is prioritizing the latter at the cost of the former with Win8, which is the source of a lot of this anger towards it and them. One app at a time. In 2012. On a 23+ inch screen. You call that moving in a direction of functionality?

Functionality is probably too broad of a term. Having never used the Metro interface, I can't really comment on what functionality is sacrificed. I was thinking of functionality more in terms of "it just works". Application management on my smartphone is relatively simple. I browse the store, select an app, it downloads and installs. Updates are managed seamlessly by the Google Play or Apple AppStore apps. There are a few instances of this in the (Windows) desktop/laptop world (Steam, for instance), but not on a broad scale.

I'll reserve judgement until I use it for myself. People have been bitching about MS UI changes for as long as I can remember. Windows XP had a "cartoony" look. Office 2007 got rid of all the 3- and 4-level deep menus and nested tabbed dialogs. Windows 7 changed the way the task bar worked and got rid of Quick Launch. All of those things end up being functional in my opinion and many of the changes were for the better. Windows 8 could be a disaster, but until I see the finished product I'll wait and see.