http://www.dailytech.com/Google+Moz...ty+Browser+Ban+for+Windows+8/article24661.htm
if this does happen i will not be using 8
if this does happen i will not be using 8
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microsoft planning on banning chrome and firefox from windows 8
- Thread starter hclarkjr
- Start date
Extent of ban is unclear, but Google and Mozilla are outraged, say Microsoft is promoting a monopoly
Windows 8 RT "isn't Windows anymore."
I. The Ban
That's allegedly part of what Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) attorney David Heiner told Mozilla general counsel Harvey Anderson, during his attempt to explain why Microsoft was banning third-party browsers from the Metro user interface (UI) for Windows 8 RT -- the version of the upcoming OS which will run on ARM architecture chips, targeting tablets and low-power laptops.
Microsoft claims it is only looking out for number one -- its customers. It is quoted by Mr. Anderson as claiming that third-party browser makers like Mozilla and Google Inc. (GOOG) would be incapable of dealing with the power and security needs of the mobile atmosphere, hence they will be relegated to the low-use traditional "Classic" UI porton of Windows 8 RT.
Microsoft appears to be on the verge of banning third-party browsers from its Metro UI, at least for the ARM OS version for tablets and laptops. [Image Source: Hardware Canucks]
The stance is not entirely unique to Microsoft. It is rather similar to Apple, Inc.'s (AAPL) policy. While Apple has allowed some third-party browsers for its iPad tablet, it will only accept browsers that are essentially reskins built atop its base Webkit code, which it co-develops with Google. The sole exception to date has been Opera Mini from Norwegian browser maker Opera Software ASA (OSE:OPERA) (Firefox has not yet been permitted on the iPhone/iPad, nor has Chrome).
Of course Microsoft stand is also rather unique in that it also will likely affect some of the Windows 8 laptop population. Even Apple hasn't been bold enough to ban third-party browsers on its laptops, not yet at least.
There may be some truth in Microsoft's argument, as it's working the closest with hardware developers and has the best knowledge of its low level firmware and is hence best positioned to promote power efficiency or security. But it's also hard to avoid the perception that Microsoft's decision to ban third-party browsers from what may be one of its most attractive Windows 8 segments is awful convenient given Internet Explorer's market share, which has plunged to its lowest level in a decade.
II. Mozilla and Google Cry Foul
Mozilla wrote a stern blog rebuffing the mandate, commenting:
We encourage Microsoft to remain firm on its user choice principles. Excluding 3rd party browsers contradicts Microsofts own published Principles that users and developers have relied upon for years. These principles represented a Microsoft market approach that was both notable and went above and beyond their DOJ antitrust settlement obligations.
The not-so-subtle allusion to the U.S. government's antitrust action against Microsoft is seconded by comments by Mr. Anderson in a CNET interview. He suggests that legal action may be a necessary panacea to the problem. He remarks, "Sometimes they need some pressure... If it turns out to be legal pressure, that could be the thing."
Adding to the chaos is a new statement from Google commenting:
We share the concerns Mozilla has raised regarding the Windows 8 environment restricting user choice and innovation. We've always welcomed innovation in the browser space across all platforms and strongly believe that having great competitors makes us all work harder. In the end, consumers and developers benefit the most from robust competition.
This statement adds a new layer of uncertainty and doubt, because it makes it sound like Microsoft may be applying the ban not only to Windows 8 RT's Metro UI, but perhaps to Metro UI within all Windows 8 distributions.
Google and Mozilla, both of whom were reportedly developing Metro UI browser apps are outraged at the tenative ban on third party browser software. [Image Source: Google]
As The Verge puts it:
Its [sic] not clear if Google's mention of "Windows 8" is simply poorly worded or if it has broader issues with the Metro environment.
Regardless, the statements from the two biggest third-party browser makers on the Widnows platform seemingly confirms beyond a doubt that Microsoft is indeed contemplating some kind of browser ban, even if it unclear exactly how far that ban will extend.
And that's a rather astounding move. Yes, Microsoft may be right -- it knows the low level hardware better than anyone. But the same could be said of traditional Windows and Microsoft has hardly showed itself capable of providing the most power efficient or fully functional browser.
III. Antitrust Suicide: What is Microsoft Thinking??
The not-so-subtle elephant in the room is that Microsoft is cracking open wide a massive can of antitrust worms. The European Union already fined over $2B USD in total for simply not allowing users to chose a separate default browser at install time with Windows Vista/Windows 7. Microsoft was forced to not only pony up cash, but also release a special version of Windows 7 to placate EU antitrust enforcers.
Compared to Microsoft's much more subtle ploy of simply making its browser the only pre-installed browser and the stock default browser, a complete (permanent) ban on third-party options seems a positively suicidal move from an antitrust perspective when we're considering a laptop operating system -- a market that Microsoft owns in excess of 85 percent of.
The browser ban seems suicidal from an anti-trust perspective. [Image Source: Euro-Synergies]
Again, it's hard to know what Microsoft is thinking here as the company has refused to comment on the statements and we only have Google and Mozilla's information to rely on. It's possible that Microsoft is only considering the ban for non-EU distributions of Windows 8 (such as the U.S. version). But even in the more lax antitrust atmosphere of the United States, it's hard to imagine that antitrust regulators would buy such a decision, particularly given the clout that Mozilla and Google command in the federal government.
This is a very surprising development and should be a very interesting issue to watch in coming weeks. I expect Microsoft to fully recant on its decision to ban third-party browsers, but the key question is whether it is wise enough to make that move on its own free will or whether it is foolhardy enough to persist in the policy until legal challenges land and it is struck with more antitrust punishments. Sources: Mozilla, CNET [Google], [Mozilla], The Verge
Windows 8 RT "isn't Windows anymore."
I. The Ban
That's allegedly part of what Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) attorney David Heiner told Mozilla general counsel Harvey Anderson, during his attempt to explain why Microsoft was banning third-party browsers from the Metro user interface (UI) for Windows 8 RT -- the version of the upcoming OS which will run on ARM architecture chips, targeting tablets and low-power laptops.
Microsoft claims it is only looking out for number one -- its customers. It is quoted by Mr. Anderson as claiming that third-party browser makers like Mozilla and Google Inc. (GOOG) would be incapable of dealing with the power and security needs of the mobile atmosphere, hence they will be relegated to the low-use traditional "Classic" UI porton of Windows 8 RT.
Microsoft appears to be on the verge of banning third-party browsers from its Metro UI, at least for the ARM OS version for tablets and laptops. [Image Source: Hardware Canucks]
The stance is not entirely unique to Microsoft. It is rather similar to Apple, Inc.'s (AAPL) policy. While Apple has allowed some third-party browsers for its iPad tablet, it will only accept browsers that are essentially reskins built atop its base Webkit code, which it co-develops with Google. The sole exception to date has been Opera Mini from Norwegian browser maker Opera Software ASA (OSE:OPERA) (Firefox has not yet been permitted on the iPhone/iPad, nor has Chrome).
Of course Microsoft stand is also rather unique in that it also will likely affect some of the Windows 8 laptop population. Even Apple hasn't been bold enough to ban third-party browsers on its laptops, not yet at least.
There may be some truth in Microsoft's argument, as it's working the closest with hardware developers and has the best knowledge of its low level firmware and is hence best positioned to promote power efficiency or security. But it's also hard to avoid the perception that Microsoft's decision to ban third-party browsers from what may be one of its most attractive Windows 8 segments is awful convenient given Internet Explorer's market share, which has plunged to its lowest level in a decade.
II. Mozilla and Google Cry Foul
Mozilla wrote a stern blog rebuffing the mandate, commenting:
We encourage Microsoft to remain firm on its user choice principles. Excluding 3rd party browsers contradicts Microsofts own published Principles that users and developers have relied upon for years. These principles represented a Microsoft market approach that was both notable and went above and beyond their DOJ antitrust settlement obligations.
The not-so-subtle allusion to the U.S. government's antitrust action against Microsoft is seconded by comments by Mr. Anderson in a CNET interview. He suggests that legal action may be a necessary panacea to the problem. He remarks, "Sometimes they need some pressure... If it turns out to be legal pressure, that could be the thing."
Adding to the chaos is a new statement from Google commenting:
We share the concerns Mozilla has raised regarding the Windows 8 environment restricting user choice and innovation. We've always welcomed innovation in the browser space across all platforms and strongly believe that having great competitors makes us all work harder. In the end, consumers and developers benefit the most from robust competition.
This statement adds a new layer of uncertainty and doubt, because it makes it sound like Microsoft may be applying the ban not only to Windows 8 RT's Metro UI, but perhaps to Metro UI within all Windows 8 distributions.
Google and Mozilla, both of whom were reportedly developing Metro UI browser apps are outraged at the tenative ban on third party browser software. [Image Source: Google]
As The Verge puts it:
Its [sic] not clear if Google's mention of "Windows 8" is simply poorly worded or if it has broader issues with the Metro environment.
Regardless, the statements from the two biggest third-party browser makers on the Widnows platform seemingly confirms beyond a doubt that Microsoft is indeed contemplating some kind of browser ban, even if it unclear exactly how far that ban will extend.
And that's a rather astounding move. Yes, Microsoft may be right -- it knows the low level hardware better than anyone. But the same could be said of traditional Windows and Microsoft has hardly showed itself capable of providing the most power efficient or fully functional browser.
III. Antitrust Suicide: What is Microsoft Thinking??
The not-so-subtle elephant in the room is that Microsoft is cracking open wide a massive can of antitrust worms. The European Union already fined over $2B USD in total for simply not allowing users to chose a separate default browser at install time with Windows Vista/Windows 7. Microsoft was forced to not only pony up cash, but also release a special version of Windows 7 to placate EU antitrust enforcers.
Compared to Microsoft's much more subtle ploy of simply making its browser the only pre-installed browser and the stock default browser, a complete (permanent) ban on third-party options seems a positively suicidal move from an antitrust perspective when we're considering a laptop operating system -- a market that Microsoft owns in excess of 85 percent of.
The browser ban seems suicidal from an anti-trust perspective. [Image Source: Euro-Synergies]
Again, it's hard to know what Microsoft is thinking here as the company has refused to comment on the statements and we only have Google and Mozilla's information to rely on. It's possible that Microsoft is only considering the ban for non-EU distributions of Windows 8 (such as the U.S. version). But even in the more lax antitrust atmosphere of the United States, it's hard to imagine that antitrust regulators would buy such a decision, particularly given the clout that Mozilla and Google command in the federal government.
This is a very surprising development and should be a very interesting issue to watch in coming weeks. I expect Microsoft to fully recant on its decision to ban third-party browsers, but the key question is whether it is wise enough to make that move on its own free will or whether it is foolhardy enough to persist in the policy until legal challenges land and it is struck with more antitrust punishments. Sources: Mozilla, CNET [Google], [Mozilla], The Verge
nemesismk2
Diamond Member
I thought it was april 1st too lol 😉
I guess Microsoft are thinking if you can't beat them then ban them! 🙂
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
More evidence that Microsoft wants to move Windows to a "closed" platform, that only they control.
Free (libre) software is looking better every day.
Too bad that MS is going to enforce cryptographic bootloaders on new Windows 8 PCs, that block installation of free OSes.
Monopolies are baaaad, m'kay?
Free (libre) software is looking better every day.
Too bad that MS is going to enforce cryptographic bootloaders on new Windows 8 PCs, that block installation of free OSes.
Monopolies are baaaad, m'kay?
destrekor
Lifer
Last I read, the encrypted EFI bootloaders are for WinRT devices only. It's an option (up to the hardware maker) for Windows 8 (x86) devices (which is good for secure enterprise-class devices, imho). Them locking down WinRT, more and more, is completely destroying the desire of WinRT for me. I felt it could be a terrific tablet.
Guess I will in fact be hoping that Intel's ultrabook-style tablet reference design actually feels comfortable and portable, because that may be the tablet route I end up going. Likely to cost $1000, but could have much better performance, and a better laptop-like productivity capability included.
I'm fine with waiting until fall/winter to see how everything shapes up.
Rhonda the Sly
Senior member
How is this news? It's old news that there would be no third party code on RT desktops.
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
You don't think MS is going to pull some shenanigans, and offer a "discount", in exchange for OEMs (Dell, HP, etc.) putting the crypto bootloaders into x86/x64 machines' firmware? Knowing that those machines will likely never be able to run Linux?
Edit: Just like all of those laptops that came out around the Vista era, that were hard-coded in the firmware to only run their SATA ports in AHCI mode, and not allow the BIOS to switch to IDE mode, such that those laptops were stuck with Vista and newer, and could not be downgraded to XP?
destrekor
Lifer
I wouldn't ever doubt Microsoft's ability to pull such shenanigans. It's in their blood. 😉
All the more reason to build your own. Of course, that's an issue with laptops... so hopefully SOME manufacturers are cool with not going the full retard route.
Locking out x86 machines from being able to run Linux sounds like a sure-fire way to draw some serious negative attention. Of course, Microsoft seems intent of going quite far down that path, so I guess it comes down to this: "we'll see."
I'm hoping Microsoft knows how far they can push, but also realize they can't push too far across this line that they want to dance on right now.
destrekor
Lifer
It might have everything to do with Metro. Everything Metro, regardless of platform, is the same. Even if development of a Metro app is originally intended for ARM WinRT devices, it will run just fine in the Windows 8 Metro environment. The same is true in reverse: any Win8 Metro app will run in the WinRT Metro environment.
That's the awesome thing about Metro. So, this could be quite interesting.
And am I understanding this right: these third-party browsers are blocked from Metro (on WinRT they say, implications are worse than that though).
On a laptop or desktop, I wouldn't really want to run Chrome in Metro if I can run it in the normal desktop interface. But on a tablet, I'd prefer a different browser than that shittastic IE in Metro.
It's misleading because they aren't banning them outright. They are simply saying that third-party developers need to use the same stack as mandated by MS in order to be used on ARM devices. Nothing is keeping the developers of Firefox and Chrome from being modified for use on Windows ARM based on MS guidelines, and since these are closed devices this situation shouldn't be treated as if they open.
Consider Firefox is available for iPhone, Mozilla should stop complaining because it's not like they haven't catered to other markets before.
This is right at the top of the article:
In early version suggested that Metro UI third-party browsers are banned. Mozilla has indicated that Microsoft is actually banning desktop mode third-party browsers ("classic" mode browsers). While not banned in Metro UI, Mozilla says Microsoft is still trying to cripple third party browsers via API denial. Microsoft counters saying it gives them some extra API privileges, but has not promised to give Mozilla or Google access to all the APIs that Internet Explorer has in Metro UI.
Consider Firefox is available for iPhone, Mozilla should stop complaining because it's not like they haven't catered to other markets before.
This is right at the top of the article:
In early version suggested that Metro UI third-party browsers are banned. Mozilla has indicated that Microsoft is actually banning desktop mode third-party browsers ("classic" mode browsers). While not banned in Metro UI, Mozilla says Microsoft is still trying to cripple third party browsers via API denial. Microsoft counters saying it gives them some extra API privileges, but has not promised to give Mozilla or Google access to all the APIs that Internet Explorer has in Metro UI.
MrChad
Lifer
Microsoft has a monopoly on operating systems for ARM-based tablets now? That's news to me.
ControlD
Diamond Member
Firefox is not available for any iOS devices. This point makes me wonder why people are bashing MS so hard for this decision when this is exactly what Apple has been doing with iOS all along. I'm sure if Mozilla wanted to reskin a version of IE for Windows 8 they could do it much in the same way that third party browsers are available for iOS, but it wouldn't really be Firefox then at all.