Michigan plot to breach voting machines points to a national pattern of GOP attempts to hack machines.

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,337
4,610
136
Not trying to apologize for any of that, but what I described is fascism, not capitalism. It's not competition driving that mindset, but tribalism. While Ayn Rand and Adam Smith both described very detailed frameworks for morality and stressed that good moral behavior was essentially for capitalism to function.
It was the 'but they will feel justified in doing the exact same evil, that they know to be wrong, in "self-defense."' I was talking about. That is a capitalist/Libertarian concept at work. Most moral systems will say that two wrongs don't make a right, but capitalist theory would state that what is most important is competing on an even playing field. If your competition does it you MUST do it as well to be competitive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: uclaLabrat

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
It was the 'but they will feel justified in doing the exact same evil, that they know to be wrong, in "self-defense."' I was talking about. That is a capitalist/Libertarian concept at work. Most moral systems will say that two wrongs don't make a right, but capitalist theory would state that what is most important is competing on an even playing field. If your competition does it you MUST do it as well to be competitive.
All ideologies contain flaws which if not mitigated against will cause the result of the ideology to act in opposition to its stated goals.
Communism for example can lead to authoritarianism, injustice, and inequality if its greatly empowered govts are not constrained by the rule of law (which they usually aren't).
Libertarianism falls apart when its proponents become so obsessed when their own rights and freedoms that they stop considering the rights and freedoms of others.
And capitalism fails when the societies that adhere to its ideals fail to be moral and compassionate.
Competition is good. Ruthlessness is not.

Fascism however is tribalism gone insane with paranoia. The Roman fasces was a bundle of sticks wrapped around an axe handle with the blade protruding representing the power of the collective to defeat its enemies. Those within the collective enjoy rights and freedoms, those without are enemies of the collective. IOW fascism is the power of the mindless mob.

I hope all this put my earlier comments in perspective.
 
Last edited:

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,349
16,727
136
All ideologies contain flaws which if not mitigated against will cause the result of the ideology to act in opposition to its stated goals.
Communism for example can lead to authoritarianism, injustice, and inequality if its greatly empowered govts are not constrained by the rule of law (which they usually aren't).
Libertarianism falls apart when its proponents become so obsessed when their own rights and freedoms that they stop considering the rights and freedoms of others.
And capitalism fails when the societies that adhere to its ideals fail to be moral and compassionate.
Competition is good. Ruthlessness is not.

Fascism however is tribalism gone insane with paranoia. The Roman fasces was a bundle of sticks wrapped around an axe handle with the blade protruding representing the power of the collective to defeat its enemies. Those within the collective enjoy rights and freedoms, those without are enemies of the collective. IOW fascism is the power of the mindless mob.

I hope all this put my earlier comments in perspective.

Not that it matters or changes your point, but capitalism fails when governments fail to keep it in check. Morality and compassion are societal standards that are not consistent or constant.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,457
6,689
126
Isn't it weird how completely unsubstantiated claims of voting machine manipulation can lead Republicans into believing that they are justified into committing real acts of voting machine manipulation?
Now expand that into almost every issue and this is the real threat facing America.
People can be told that some other group is doing something evil, and they will not only believe it without question or evidence, but they will feel justified in doing the exact same evil, that they know to be wrong, in "self-defense."
It is a moral sickness that plagues our nation.
This is the effect of preaching capitalism as a moral stance. These people have mistaken the questionable ethics of capitalisms (and to a smaller extent Ayn Rand style libertarianism) for moral character. They see other people as competitors.
Not trying to apologize for any of that, but what I described is fascism, not capitalism. It's not competition driving that mindset, but tribalism. While Ayn Rand and Adam Smith both described very detailed frameworks for morality and stressed that good moral behavior was essentially for capitalism to function.
I think you're both correct.

I think all three of you are right. What Vic described as the real threat to the US today, I believe is and has always been the real threat to humanity, justification of any action as moral because it is rationalized as a defense against an opposing opinion that challenges the validity of a sacred cow one has been inculcated to believe is factually just that. sacred.

All of this is the result of having been compared as a child to all the imaginary good children to whom you were never able to measure up, the inability to remain conscious of of the pain that caused hence the creation of a protective defensive competitive ego with the preservation of that ego armor the driving force behind the fanaticism in preserving that so called sacred belief. The real motivation is to never allow into conscious awareness the pain we were made to feel. And this happened to all of us and the reason why we only approximate our understanding by focus on symptoms.

This will happen to fascist and capitalists alike, has been happening from the beginning of human speech, the capacity to emotional cripple others with words, being put down with words accompanied with the threat of rejection.

When one sees the real root of the problem the symptoms of that disease are obvious. Only the real motivation remains hidden because the problem isn't actually out there in the world; it is within us. The world will continue to spin of this Wheel of Karma without conscious awareness of the real issue.

Everyone cheers when the diagnosis is pointed out as external, a problem with those others out there, but when it comes to seeing the problem at its source we run for the high hills.

Competition is hate based on having been compared and judged inferior. The judgment is false, there is nothing wrong with anybody, but the belief creates its own reality. Hidden feelings of worthlessness are the reason we feel contempt. We were told that to be real is to incur contempt. So we abandoned ourselves and enslaved as cult members of whatever group espouses our externally generated sacred cows.

To awaken is to be free even for a moment from that self identification, to come to the end of thought, the creator of fear hatred and evil, to experience oceanic bliss, to return from the place from which we came.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,240
136
Comparing fascism to capitalism is comparing apples to oranges. Fascism is extreme social conservatism. Hitler did not care much about economics. Didn't write much about it. His economic policies were delegated to others, while the only principle that mattered to Hitler was, do whatever is necessary to promote maximum production of armaments. Nazi economics were a pragmatic admixture of socialism and capitalism.

In theory, fascism is compatible with capitalism, socialism, or any economic system in between. It does point to authoritarian government but any economic system can exist under authoritarian government.

And there can be an intersection between the two in the following sense. Social darwinism. In a pure capitalist system, the strong prosper while the weak do not. Add tribalism, and that is now based on race as a stand in for social class. Black people are worse off in a capitalist system, they believe, because they are inferior. Capitalism to them is a natural method of sorting, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Our own conservatives are absolutely influenced by both. Look at their worship of Trump's gawdy displays of weath, and their belief that his wealth qualifies him to run the country. Which barely scratches the surface of it. As to tribalism, yes it is rampant on the far right. It's what qualifies this as a fascist movement.
 
Last edited:

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,457
6,689
126
Comparing fascism to capitalism is comparing apples to oranges. Fascism is extreme social conservatism. Hitler did not care much about economics. Didn't write much about it. His economic policies were delegated to others, while the only principle that mattered to Hitler was, do whatever is necessary to promote maximum production of armaments. Nazi economics were a pragmatic admixture of socialism and capitalism.

In theory, fascism is compatible with capitalism, socialism, or any economic system in between. It does point to authoritarian government but any economic system can exist under authoritarian government.

And there can be an intersection between the two in the following sense. Social darwinism. In a pure capitalist system, the strong prosper while the weak do not. Add tribalism, and that is now based on race as a stand in for social class. Black people are worse off in a capitalist system, they believe, because they are inferior. Capitalism to them is a natural method of sorting, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Our own conservatives are absolutely influenced by both. Look at their worship of Trump's gawdy displays of weath, and their belief that his wealth qualifies him to run the country. Which barely scratches the surface of it. As to tribalism, yes it is rampant on the far right. It's what qualifies this as a fascist movement.
This as a good description of what is. But wheat from the chaff, superior from inferior, why do people see things that way. What underlying perhaps unconscious need is being met. Who defines week or inferior. How would such labels come into existence or concern.
When you describe a symptom it become just a fact we can’t escape. But when you see a cause you see a chance to potentially prevented from happening. Knowledge grants empowerment.
 

Stokely

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,281
3,084
136
It's the GOP way, perfected by the master Karl Rove.

Do some bad thing, accuse the other side of doing that bad thing no matter 1) how obvious it is that YOU are doing it and 2) no matter that you have zero evidence for the other side doing it.

Keep repeating the lie.
And if somehow the evidence against you is overwhelming, distract with some new thing and never admit anything.

It's simple, it's effective, and works on supporters who are either ignorant or willing to cheat for team ball.