Michael Jordan has not left the building

[momeNt]

Rodman was the best rebounder in history before he played with Jordan. I guess you can claim Pippen wouldn't have been a great player without Jordan, but I haven't seen a single piece of evidence to support that claim other than the fact they played together.

Phil Jackson deserves most of the credit for pushing the right buttons, most notably for pushing Jordan's buttons correctly. He was able to accentuate Jordan's best quality (pure scorer) and limit his worst (terrible terrible teammate both on the court and off). I think you do a huge disservice to the greatest NBA coach in history to pretend that Jordan was the cause of the Bulls player development and not Phil.

I think history post 1998 will bear out who can claim responsibility for player development. There is a reason Phil went on to 5 more championships while Jordan built the worst team in NBA history.

If you've listened or read guys on the Bull's beat when Pippen showed up you'd think differently about Pippen's development. Obviously not guys that were established like Rodman. You still have Paxon, Armstrong, Grant, (not Cartwright).

Aside from Kukoc, the second three-peat teams were already developed players. Jordan trained the team he won his first set of championships with by leading in practices and making them all better players.

The bold is not what I'm talking about. Compare it more like who would you want to practice with, Jordan or Iverson?

 

[airdata]

Not many people can pull off a hitler mustache these days.

 

[preslove]

Grab 10 rebounds? Done. Block a shot on the break? You got it. Win the Finals? Umm... nope. Win 66 games and get to the Finals? Nope. Stick with your team or ditch it to play with two more All-Stars? Ditch it. Done. Win not 3, not 4, not 5.... shit... lost again in the Finals while scoring only 18 4th quarter points the entire series.

Jordan was drafted by a well run team, while LBJ was drafted by a pathetic, perpetually losing team. The fact that you can't get that through your idiotic head is why you are just a blind hater. What the fuck is wrong with you? Why are you so filled with hatred?

 

[preslove]

Jordan made the players around him better in a way that I don't think LeBron does now or will do in Miami or did in Cleveland.

This sentence demonstrates that you know nothing about basketball.

 

[NFS4]

Great article. And although I had heard the story before, I still can't get over him punching Steve Kerr in the face. Steve Kerr...

STEVE KERR!!!! Da fuck?

 

[crashtestdummy]

I wouldn't trade my life for Michael Jordan's. And it's not even close.

This. I remember watching his HoF acceptance speech and thinking "If that's what it takes to be the greatest, I don't want it."

 

[Red Storm]

When it comes down to simply winning basketball games, you want that ultra competitive sociopath on your team. Didn't Lebron once say that his ultimate goal was to be a "global icon"? He's a great player no doubt, best in the league today, but I completely agree with Jordan that if he played in that era he would not be the best.

 

[preslove]

of the few NBA games i watched in the past few years, one thing i noticed was defense was HUGELY lacking. 100 point games used to be a rarity. now they are far more common.

What the fuck are you talking about you goddamn moron?

Houston is leading the league this year with 106.1 points. The Wizards are at the bottom with 91.3 points. The league average is 97.8.: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013.html

1994-95? Orlando Lead the league with 110.9. Cleveland was at the bottom with 90.5. The league average was 101.4: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1995.html

1985-86? The lakers lead the league with 117.3. With Every single goddamn team, other than the basement knicks, averaging over 100 points. The knicks were the lowest, and they averaged 98.7 points. The league average was 110.2! http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1986.html

Anybody who says that the defenses in the 80s and 90s were better or the same than they are now is just an idiot talking out of their ass.

 

[child of wonder]

Jordan was drafted by a well run team, while LBJ was drafted by a pathetic, perpetually losing team. The fact that you can't get that through your idiotic head is why you are just a blind hater. What the fuck is wrong with you? Why are you so filled with hatred?

Ah... the "hater" comeback. In other words "Rather than rationally arguing to the contrary, I will accuse you of being hateful."

Yes, observe the well run powerhouse the Chicago Bulls prior to MJ's arrival:

Year W L Win%
1983-84 27 55 .329
1982-83 28 54 .341
1981-82 34 48 .415
1980-81 45 37 .549
1979-80 30 52 .366
1978-79 31 51 .378
1977-78 40 42 .488
1976-77 44 38 .537
1975-76 24 58 .293

Jordan had it just as rough as Lebron did during his first several seasons in Chicago. He had to carry a lackluster team to the playoffs over and over. It wasn't until Pippen got two years under his belt and Jackson came on board before the Bulls became the dynasty we know of today. Hell, Jerry Krause was the brains behind assembling the Bulls championship teams. He came on board in 1985 yet it was another 6 years before they won a title.

People claim Jordan had so much help but he never played with more than one other All-Star, Pippen, and a strong argument could be made that without Jordan Pippen may never have developed into the player he was. Lebron made it to the Finals in 2011 with two other All-Stars, both in their primes, and still lost.

Lebron handled his departure from Cleveland so very poorly and it exposed him as the spoiled brat he is. The level of disdain from so many fans, myself included, would be much smaller had he signed with Miami minus the fanfare, the showmanship, and solipsistic melodrama.

What really irks me, however, is when people, most of whom didn't actually witness Jordan when he played, look simply at his stats or records and compare that to a current player. They did it with Kobe and they're doing it again with James. They'll do it again with the next big superstar. And the one after that. Hell, someday you may be in the exact same position I am today defending Lebron James from people saying Player X is better.

 

[preslove]

Ah... the "hater" comeback. In other words "Rather than rationally arguing to the contrary, I will accuse you of being hateful."

Yes, observe the well run powerhouse the Chicago Bulls prior to MJ's arrival:

Year W L Win%
1983-84 27 55 .329
1982-83 28 54 .341
1981-82 34 48 .415
1980-81 45 37 .549
1979-80 30 52 .366
1978-79 31 51 .378
1977-78 40 42 .488
1976-77 44 38 .537
1975-76 24 58 .293

Jordan had it just as rough as Lebron did during his first several seasons in Chicago. He had to carry a lackluster team to the playoffs over and over. It wasn't until Pippen got two years under his belt and Jackson came on board before the Bulls became the dynasty we know of today. Hell, Jerry Krause was the brains behind assembling the Bulls championship teams. He came on board in 1985 yet it was another 6 years before they won a title.

People claim Jordan had so much help but he never played with more than one other All-Star, Pippen, and a strong argument could be made that without Jordan Pippen may never have developed into the player he was. Lebron made it to the Finals in 2011 with two other All-Stars, both in their primes, and still lost.

Lebron handled his departure from Cleveland so very poorly and it exposed him as the spoiled brat he is. The level of disdain from so many fans, myself included, would be much smaller had he signed with Miami minus the fanfare, the showmanship, and solipsistic melodrama.

What really irks me, however, is when people, most of whom didn't actually witness Jordan when he played, look simply at his stats or records and compare that to a current player. They did it with Kobe and they're doing it again with James. They'll do it again with the next big superstar. And the one after that. Hell, someday you may be in the exact same position I am today defending Lebron James from people saying Player X is better.

How many times did Jordan make it to the NBA finals without Pippen? Jesus fucking Christ you're an idiot. LBJ never played with a 2nd best player as good as Pippen while at cleveland. And he managed to make better playoff runs. LBJ left that piece of shit franchise because he knew he never would if he stayed. He handled it poorly with that espn event, but at least the proceeds went to charity.

Basketball is a team sport. Measuring greatness by the number rings is something that only mouthbreathing mongoloids do.

 

[child of wonder]

How many times did Jordan make it to the NBA finals without Pippen? Jesus fucking Christ you're an idiot. LBJ never played with a 2nd best player as good as Pippen while at cleveland. And he managed to make better playoff runs. LBJ left that piece of shit franchise because he knew he never would if he stayed. He handled it poorly with that espn event, but at least the proceeds went to charity.

Basketball is a team sport. Measuring greatness by the number rings is something that only mouthbreathing mongoloids do.

And Lebron would have gotten past the Pistons, Knicks, Cavaliers, Celtics, etc. in the 80's to make it to the Finals if we could swap him for MJ? MJ would never have made it to the Finals had he played for the Cavs in his prime during the late 2000's?

Lebron did play with 1 player arguably as good as Pippen plus another All-Star and still lost in their first trip to the Finals together.

Oh, but wait, anything negative on Lebron's record shouldn't be held against him lest we be "mouthbreathing mongoloids."

Simply put, Jordan was a better scorer than Lebron, was a better winner than Lebron, and didn't leave the Bulls to sign with two other All-Stars as Lebron did. Lebron should go down in history as a top 10 or higher player, but claiming he's better than Michael Jordan is stupid.

Could Lebron win several more championships while being the undisputed leader of his team and put up staggering numbers over the rest of his career? Possibly. At that time, then there could be an argument about him being #1 overall.

Until then, ESPN and others need to shut up.

 

[preslove]

Simply put, Jordan was a better scorer than Lebron, was a better winner than Lebron, and didn't leave the Bulls to sign with two other All-Stars as Lebron did. Lebron should go down in history as a top 10 or higher player, but claiming he's better than Michael Jordan is stupid.

At the same age, they have the same rings. Keep on hating, you rage filled cretin.

 

[HendrixFan]

Basketball is a team sport. Measuring greatness by the number rings is something that only mouthbreathing mongoloids do.

Chris Bosh is better than Charles Barkley.

 

[HendrixFan]

Could Lebron win several more championships while being the undisputed leader of his team and put up staggering numbers over the rest of his career? Possibly. At that time, then there could be an argument about him being #1 overall.

Until then, ESPN and others need to shut up.

ESPN should shut up about the MJ versus Lebron thing. They are two different players with different skillsets and different approaches to the game.

Reading the article posted it would seem that MJ is more concerned/obsessed/whatever about Lebron than the other way around. Oddly, it seems that vintage Bulls fans or vintage hoops fans share a similar mindset.

Lebron's legend is still growing, enjoy it while it lasts. Who knows when the next player of his caliber will come around. MJ's legend is already set, the only thing he can do is open his mouth more and tarnish it. MJ didn't play in the digital media age, and most people only got to see highlights and/or playoff performances by him. There was no ESPN machine that dug into every facet of his personal life and most of his "sins" have been swept under the rug by what was, at the time, a willing media that cared more about access than exposure.

 

[child of wonder]

At the same age, they have the same rings. Keep on hating, you rage filled cretin.

Keep sucking Lebron's balls you ignorant simpleton.

See, I can spew insults, too! Look how that advanced my argument!

 

[momeNt]

This sentence demonstrates that you know nothing about basketball.

IN A WAY understand context. Jesus.

I don't need to repeat what I said. You just need to re-read it. LeBron's ability to see passing lanes and get guys open is NOT what I'm talking about.

 

[purbeast0]

one thing i've learned from reading this thread is that preslove is a moron who has no clue how to make an argument.

 

[waggy]

ESPN should shut up about the MJ versus Lebron thing. They are two different players with different skillsets and different approaches to the game.

Reading the article posted it would seem that MJ is more concerned/obsessed/whatever about Lebron than the other way around. Oddly, it seems that vintage Bulls fans or vintage hoops fans share a similar mindset.

Lebron's legend is still growing, enjoy it while it lasts. Who knows when the next player of his caliber will come around. MJ's legend is already set, the only thing he can do is open his mouth more and tarnish it. MJ didn't play in the digital media age, and most people only got to see highlights and/or playoff performances by him. There was no ESPN machine that dug into every facet of his personal life and most of his "sins" have been swept under the rug by what was, at the time, a willing media that cared more about access than exposure.

agreed. you can't compare the two.

Lebron is NOT yet to the level jordan was. But he is still young and getting better.

But lebron is still one of the most dominate players in the league today. You can't say how Jordan would do today or how Lebron would do in Jordan's time.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

I watched the Allstar game last night, and all I have to say is that Dwight Howard is the biggest douche bag I have ever seen in the NBA. I think I have more respect for Ron Artest.

 

[preslove]

Chris Bosh is better than Charles Barkley.

srsly

And since both Derick Fisher and Magic Johnson have 5 titles each, they're both on the same level!!!!

derp, derp, derp, derp, derp,

[/Child of Wonder]

 

[child of wonder]

srsly

And since both Derick Fisher and Magic Johnson have 5 titles each, they're both on the same level!!!!

derp, derp, derp, derp, derp,

[/Child of Wonder]

lol

You've become a parody.

 

[preslove]

Keep sucking Lebron's balls you ignorant simpleton.

See, I can spew insults, too! Look how that advanced my argument!

HendrixFan cut you down many posts ago. You've just been repeating the same drivel. There's no point in actually engaging with someone who can't be reached. You just hate the guy, no matter what anyone says.

You've been arguing nonstop that the defenses of today aren't better than yesterday. This is fucking retarded, and if you knew ANYTHING about basketball, you wouldn't make such a ridiculous statement.

If you don't want to be called an idiot, don't make idiotic arguments.

Houston is leading the league this year with 106.1 points. The Wizards are at the bottom with 91.3 points. The league average is 97.8.: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013.html

1994-95? Orlando Lead the league with 110.9. Cleveland was at the bottom with 90.5. The league average was 101.4: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1995.html

1985-86? The lakers lead the league with 117.3. With Every single goddamn team, other than the basement knicks, averaging over 100 points. The knicks were the lowest, and they averaged 98.7 points. The league average was 110.2! http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1986.html

Anybody who says that the defenses in the 80s and 90s were better or the same than they are now is just an idiot talking out of their ass.

Please, provide some data to back up your claim that defenses in 1980s and 1990s were superior to those of today.

 

[preslove]

lol

You've become a parody.

Says the idiot who thinks 1980s defenses were better than those of today, when the average score in the 1980s was about 20 points higher

derp derp derp

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

one thing i've learned from reading this thread is that preslove is a moron who has no clue how to make an argument.

Wtf are you talking about you stupid fucking idiot? I can't talk to you because you are so stupid.
/preslove

 

[child of wonder]

Please, provide some data to back up your claim that defenses in 1980s and 1990s were superior to those of today.

In 1986 the league average for pace was 102.1 possessions per 48 minutes. Today it is 91.8. I wonder if teams back then focused on fast breaks? "Showtime Lakers?" That must mean they dribbled out the shot clock. They only had the highest offensive rating of the entire NBA that year.

In fact, if we calculate the league average Points Per Possession (PPS) by dividing the average team's PPG by the average pace from each era, that should give us a great comparison by eliminating pace. In fact, we should see a huge disparity since today's defense is so much better!

1986 PPG = 110.2
2013 PPG adjusted for pace = 108.8

Wow, PPG adjusted for pace is almost identical!

Another stat to pay attention to is Offensive Rating, a measure of points scored per 100 possessions. If defenses today are so much better, we should see a large gap in offensive efficiency from 1986 to today when in fact we don't. It's only 107.2 then vs 105.5 today.

Today's perceived improvement with defense is due to a few factors, two of the primary ones being that back in 1986 teams committed an average of over 25 fouls per game compared to under 20 today. That resulted in 6.3 more points per game from the free throw line alone in 1986 for the average team. This was due to how much more physical the game was in 1986 vs. today. Second, teams gobbled up offensive rebounds at a much higher rate than today, 32.4% vs. 26.8%. Improving defensive rebounding is an important aspect of defense, too.

This does not mean that an average defensive team today would shut down an average offensive team from 1986 like a professional team playing a high school team. It means a 2013 average defensive team is able to slow the pace of the game better than an average defensive team from 1986.

Put some of the league's best scorers from the 1980's on a team today in their prime and you'd see Jordan, Wilkins, World B. Free, Isiah Thomas, Alex English, etc. exploiting today's rules like crazy. Could you imagine guarding any of those guys without being able to touch them unless they post up? They'd go hog wild with today's hand checking rules.

Point is, defenses today play differently than defenses of the 1980's. They're better able to control pace, defensive rebound (since the athletic playing field is more even today due to better nutrition and training), and they are better at not fouling.

But if you asked anyone who knew anything about basketball what team they'd choose to stop a Michael Jordan or Lebron James type scorer complete with the defensive rules from that team's era, you better bet your ass almost everyone would put their money on a defensive juggernaut from the 1980's like the Celtics or Pistons vs. one today like the Spurs, Pacers, or Bulls (3 of the top 4 teams in defensive rating today).

That's all the time I'm going to bother wasting with you anymore.