Michael Jordan has not left the building

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LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
11,518
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Ego.

Jordan wanted the last shot. Lebron wants the best shot, even if it is the teammate taking it. The difference is ego and nothing else.

Michael Jordan. 6 NBA Finals. 6-0 NBA Finals Career Record. 6 NBA Finals MVPs.

Class dismissed.

You can whine all you want about him being a ball hog, but at the end of the day the goal is to win and MJ did just that. If you want to whine about the GOAT wanting the ball at the end of the game...lol.
 
Apr 20, 2008
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Lebron is busting his ass to win rings? Really? On Wade's team he's busting his ass to win rings? I don't think any superstar in the history of sports took an easier road in their prime to get himself a ring than Lebron. He should of busted his ass in Cleveland instead of folding like a cheap suit in the playoffs. Jordan was a complete ass, but he put his team on his back for 6 championships. Maybe if he was more unselfish he could have failed miserably at the Bulls then joined up with Stockton and Malone for a ring or two.

Growing up as a Jazz fan... That would have been amazing.

Fuck you, memories.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,914
3
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Michael Jordan. 6 NBA Finals. 6-0 NBA Finals Career Record. 6 NBA Finals MVPs.

Class dismissed.

You can whine all you want about him being a ball hog, but at the end of the day the goal is to win and MJ did just that. If you want to whine about the GOAT wanting the ball at the end of the game...lol.

haha.. as a Jordan hater in his prime, can't really argue with you. I think anyone who is the GOAT is going to have this problem, and it's understandable.. you're the greatest, every game of your life you're frustrated when you don't get the ball. Because you know you're the greatest, just makes practical sense.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE&feature=endscreen

Lebron would fold like a bitch if he had to play against this kind of defense. Jordan put up 29.7, 5.5, 6.5, and 2.0 in the 1989 series against the Pistons despite their entire defensive mindset being to stop and/or hurt Michael Jordan as evidenced by his over 13 FTA per game in the series. The whole "defense was weak in the 80's and 90's" is pure fantasy.

The "zone defense" argument is also hogwash. In Jordan's 2nd comeback prior to his knee injury after the ASG he was putting up 25.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, and 5.3 apg in 2001-2002 at age 38. What year were zone defenses allowed in the league? 2001-2002.

Lebron is a great player but the blinders some of you wear by trying to say he's greater than Michael Jordan is pure lunacy.
 

QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
22,343
667
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Probably cause he fails at the last shot every time.

Fails every time?? He's 13-31 for game winning shots, his percentage is higher than even Kobe's. He's a way better clutch player than people like you give him credit for, if you don't believe me Google it. He's ahead of everyone in the NBA and in the finals tied for 1st with Bryant. The reason people act like Kobe's so much better in the final seconds is only due to the fact he takes so many more shots. James could do what Kobe does at a higher percentage but he's not a ball hog who has to be the one to win the game. In the clutch finding an open man you know can win the game is every bit as hard as hitting that final shot yourself.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84LAUoHdwKE he seems good to me *shrug*
 
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HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,648
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE&feature=endscreen

Lebron would fold like a bitch if he had to play against this kind of defense. Jordan put up 29.7, 5.5, 6.5, and 2.0 in the 1989 series against the Pistons despite their entire defensive mindset being to stop and/or hurt Michael Jordan as evidenced by his over 13 FTA per game in the series. The whole "defense was weak in the 80's and 90's" is pure fantasy.

Either you didn't watch your own link or you haven't watched a basketball game in the last 10 years. Nobody in the league takes the kind of hits Lebron does without calls. Shaq used to but doesn't play anymore. Because of Lebron's (and Shaq) size the hits don't seem as bad but they are certainly there.

Aside from that your video shows exactly what I was talking about in the other thread. The defense doesn't come to double team Jordan because it effectively can't. He runs into where the defense is waiting. In NONE of those clips do you see a trap 30-40 feet from the basket when Jordan is holding the ball, and in NONE of those clips do you see him being doubled without the ball as a denial. The help defense is being run into by Jordan, not the other way around.

Each time Jordan gets an ISO and has all the room in the world to work the ISO until he gets into an area where his teammates are, and consequently where the help defense can be. Because the help is "late" (loose term because it really couldn't be sooner - just late in comparison to how you would see a double these days) they aren't fully collapsed onto Jordan by the time he flails up an out of control shot.

I'm not sure what the point of you posting that video was other than to demonstrate how pathetically simplistic NBA defense was back in the day.

The "zone defense" argument is also hogwash. In Jordan's 2nd comeback prior to his knee injury after the ASG he was putting up 25.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, and 5.3 apg in 2001-2002 at age 38. What year were zone defenses allowed in the league? 2001-2002.

I know it is from the other thread, but in that era there were still nearly 30 players averaging 20ppg.

Mike James.

Mike James. Think about it.

While rule changes were starting to take place then, not all of them were in effect at the time, and more importantly nobody had adjusted to it. It took five years or so for the strongside trap/weakside zone defense to start rolling out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nepmd2ygMK4

Lebron is a great player but the blinders some of you wear by trying to say he's greater than Michael Jordan is pure lunacy.

Lebron is a more complete player. Jordan is a better scorer. Jordan has a better resume, but when looking at what they had accomplished by the age of 28 that isn't true. Lebron has a way to go to be the greatest of all time, he certainly is NOT now. He is just hitting the start of his prime though and has a good chance to take that crown. His physical gifts are a big part of it, but his IQ and desire to do everything on the floor are what really make that door open to him.

Jordan's unflattering review of Lebron from the article shows how sad of a person he is, just as his Hall of Fame speech did. Guys like Magic and Barkley are some of the all time greats but they celebrate the game and enjoy newcomers. Jordan is unable or incapable of enjoying basketball. The article highlights that even if the author doesn't see it.

Basketball is such a beautiful game. It is the physical version of jazz where repetition and practice meet improvisation to create something we've seen before but never seen before. It is a joy to watch. Unless you are Jordan.

Lebron, likewise is a joy to watch because of his ability and desire to do anything on the court, depending on what was needed. Guard the five? Sure. Guard the one? Sure. Drop 10 assists? Ok. Go for 40+? Got it. The fact that Jordan can't enjoy that is sad in of itself, and when coupled with everything else we know about him makes him a disgusting human being.

It is a great article as the OP suggested. But it is no big reveal.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,121
9,182
136
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE&feature=endscreen

Lebron would fold like a bitch if he had to play against this kind of defense. Jordan put up 29.7, 5.5, 6.5, and 2.0 in the 1989 series against the Pistons despite their entire defensive mindset being to stop and/or hurt Michael Jordan as evidenced by his over 13 FTA per game in the series. The whole "defense was weak in the 80's and 90's" is pure fantasy.

The "zone defense" argument is also hogwash. In Jordan's 2nd comeback prior to his knee injury after the ASG he was putting up 25.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, and 5.3 apg in 2001-2002 at age 38. What year were zone defenses allowed in the league? 2001-2002.

Lebron is a great player but the blinders some of you wear by trying to say he's greater than Michael Jordan is pure lunacy.

of the few NBA games i watched in the past few years, one thing i noticed was defense was HUGELY lacking. 100 point games used to be a rarity. now they are far more common.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
Lebron, likewise is a joy to watch because of his ability and desire to do anything on the court, depending on what was needed. Guard the five? Sure. Guard the one? Sure. Drop 10 assists? Ok. Go for 40+? Got it.

Grab 10 rebounds? Done. Block a shot on the break? You got it. Win the Finals? Umm... nope. Win 66 games and get to the Finals? Nope. Stick with your team or ditch it to play with two more All-Stars? Ditch it. Done. Win not 3, not 4, not 5.... shit... lost again in the Finals while scoring only 18 4th quarter points the entire series.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,648
0
71
Grab 10 rebounds? Done. Block a shot on the break? You got it. Win the Finals? Umm... nope. Win 66 games and get to the Finals? Nope. Stick with your team or ditch it to play with two more All-Stars? Ditch it. Done. Win not 3, not 4, not 5.... shit... lost again in the Finals while scoring only 18 4th quarter points the entire series.

Uhm...
 

QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
22,343
667
126

Haters bring up the James from 2+ seasons ago, not the one who was MVP in both the regular season and playoffs. Since he choked 2 seasons ago no matter what he does until he retires. He's always going to be a shitty choke artist in their eyes.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
Haters bring up the James from 2+ seasons ago, not the one who was MVP in both the regular season and playoffs. Since he choked 2 seasons ago no matter what he does until he retires. He's always going to be a shitty choke artist in their eyes.

If he wins more championships, they'll forget. Winning cures all, just ask Kobe.
 

QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
22,343
667
126
If he wins more championships, they'll forget. Winning cures all, just ask Kobe.

When he wins more the haters will just say "so, he couldn't do it in Cleveland!" Staying with a team is okay, even if the end up trading a bunch of players to get a winning team. But leaving a team means your rings don't count. For some reason if James had stayed with the Cavs and they had traded and got Bosh & Wade it would have somehow been better, I'm not sure why though.
 
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HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,648
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I figured listing things in chronological order would go over your head.

Your qualification is that there was a season where Lebron wasn't an NBA champ? There were quite a few seasons where Jordan didn't win the Finals. More in fact, than seasons where he did.

I'm baffled by your reasoning.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,091
4,978
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I don't follow sports, but that was a pretty good article. Amazing that he still has that much drive & competitiveness into his 50's.

It was interesting reading about how he is struggling with giving up his career and losing his abilities to age, but still having the desire to play. He made a point of calling it an addiction. That's got to be difficult, devoting your life to becoming excellent at something and then having no choice but to give it up because you get to the point where you just can't do it anymore physically.
 

LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
11,518
670
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"Jordan has a better resume, but when looking at what they had accomplished by the age of 28 that isn't true. "

Simply not true.

Jordan won his first championship by the age of 28 (the first of his three peat). Jordan won the NBA MVP and NBA Finals MVP. He won the Defensive Player of the Year and the NBA MVP in the same year. He lead the league in scoring 7 times. Not to mention he did this in 4 less years than Lebron James because he was too busy winning an NCAA Championship in College. Lebron James lost two NBA Finals. LJ started playing at 18 years old and MJ started at 21 in the NBA. But if you look at the actual stats, he did not accomplish more than Jordan. LJ has ever been named Defensive player of the year. He has never lead the league in steals. He has not lead the league in scoring like MJ has. He didn't win a College Championship and he lost two NBA Finals.

Jordan also lead the league in steals for 2 years before he was 28.

Now if you actually compare apples to apples and look at Jordans first 10 years in the league against Lebrons first 10 years...lol it's a joke. MJ had 3 NBA Championships (no losses, which you didn't have the balls to comment about) and a ton of other awards.

Class dismissed.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
"Jordan has a better resume, but when looking at what they had accomplished by the age of 28 that isn't true. "

Simply not true.

Jordan won his first championship by the age of 28 (the first of his three peat). Jordan won the NBA MVP and NBA Finals MVP. He won the Defensive Player of the Year and the NBA MVP in the same year. He lead the league in scoring 7 times. Not to mention he did this in 4 less years than Lebron James because he was too busy winning an NCAA Championship in College. Lebron James lost two NBA Finals. LJ started playing at 18 years old and MJ started at 21 in the NBA. But if you look at the actual stats, he did not accomplish more than Jordan. LJ has ever been named Defensive player of the year. He has never lead the league in steals. He has not lead the league in scoring like MJ has. He didn't win a College Championship and he lost two NBA Finals.

Jordan also lead the league in steals for 2 years before he was 28.

Now if you actually compare apples to apples and look at Jordans first 10 years in the league against Lebrons first 10 years...lol it's a joke. MJ had 3 NBA Championships (no losses, which you didn't have the balls to comment about) and a ton of other awards.

Class dismissed.

You don't understand. Lebron didn't do any of those things because he didn't want to. He just didn't feel like it but he could have if he wanted to because he's smarter and less selfish than Jordan.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,914
3
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"Jordan has a better resume, but when looking at what they had accomplished by the age of 28 that isn't true. "

Simply not true.

Jordan won his first championship by the age of 28 (the first of his three peat). Jordan won the NBA MVP and NBA Finals MVP. He won the Defensive Player of the Year and the NBA MVP in the same year. He lead the league in scoring 7 times. Not to mention he did this in 4 less years than Lebron James because he was too busy winning an NCAA Championship in College. Lebron James lost two NBA Finals. LJ started playing at 18 years old and MJ started at 21 in the NBA. But if you look at the actual stats, he did not accomplish more than Jordan. LJ has ever been named Defensive player of the year. He has never lead the league in steals. He has not lead the league in scoring like MJ has. He didn't win a College Championship and he lost two NBA Finals.

Jordan also lead the league in steals for 2 years before he was 28.

Now if you actually compare apples to apples and look at Jordans first 10 years in the league against Lebrons first 10 years...lol it's a joke. MJ had 3 NBA Championships (no losses, which you didn't have the balls to comment about) and a ton of other awards.

Class dismissed.

You make a strong argument, however I don't think it's fair for you to keep coming back to the NBA Finals losses. Jordan hadn't even made the finals. And obviously by using 28 as a cutoff we're helping Jordan a lot because he won his first championship that year and all those other accolades.

Also, you want to give MJ credit for his NCAA championship and then do a straight 10 year/10 year comparison in the NBA. That's effectively giving MJ his entire college career for free in the comparison. I think the fair comparison is both players, to a certain age, period. Regardless of when they started.

Like I said strong argument but you're twisting in some areas.

Fact is a straight comparison cannot be done until both of their careers are over. For all we know Lebron's best days are still ahead.

edit: and also, those teams Lebron was losing with in the finals were not that great without him. Jordan played with some damn good teams, Lebron had to go find a team willing to hire talent while Jordan was fortunate enough to have it come to him. But anyone criticizing Lebron for only winning in Miami, Jordan basically had the same setup for many of his rings (all star supporting cast)
 
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momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
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You make a strong argument, however I don't think it's fair for you to keep coming back to the NBA Finals losses. Jordan hadn't even made the finals. And obviously by using 28 as a cutoff we're helping Jordan a lot because he won his first championship that year and all those other accolades.

Also, you want to give MJ credit for his NCAA championship and then do a straight 10 year/10 year comparison in the NBA. That's effectively giving MJ his entire college career for free in the comparison. I think the fair comparison is both players, to a certain age, period. Regardless of when they started.

Like I said strong argument but you're twisting in some areas.

Fact is a straight comparison cannot be done until both of their careers are over. For all we know Lebron's best days are still ahead.

edit: and also, those teams Lebron was losing with in the finals were not that great without him. Jordan played with some damn good teams, Lebron had to go find a team willing to hire talent while Jordan was fortunate enough to have it come to him. But anyone criticizing Lebron for only winning in Miami, Jordan basically had the same setup for many of his rings (all star supporting cast)

Jordan made the players around him better in a way that I don't think LeBron does now or will do in Miami or did in Cleveland. Jordan transformed his team by killing them in practices and forcing them to be better. Not sure LeBron is the same way.

Not to say anything about how LeBron with his vision and passing abilities is able to open up opportunities for his teammates that they wouldn't normally get, I'm talking about their respective impacts on player development.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,914
3
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Jordan made the players around him better in a way that I don't think LeBron does now or will do in Miami or did in Cleveland. Jordan transformed his team by killing them in practices and forcing them to be better. Not sure LeBron is the same way.

Not to say anything about how LeBron with his vision and passing abilities is able to open up opportunities for his teammates that they wouldn't normally get, I'm talking about their respective impacts on player development.

This is a bit too vague. I mean Jordan didn't make Pippen Pippen (though he definitely helped). He didn't make Rodman Rodman. We're relying on some vague leadership qualities here when the facts seem to say he just had a damn good supporting cast.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,648
0
71
Now if you actually compare apples to apples and look at Jordans first 10 years in the league against Lebrons first 10 years...lol it's a joke. MJ had 3 NBA Championships (no losses, which you didn't have the balls to comment about) and a ton of other awards.

Class dismissed.

28-32 has been widely established to be an NBA player's prime. It is when their skillset reaches a peak level but before their athleticism takes a huge fall. The two are similarly accomplished by age 28. To compare what Jordan did during his prime (28-32 again) to what Lebron did before his prime (22-27) isn't really relevant. Lebron's best years are ahead of him still, barring injury.

Lebron will take some records from Jordan due to being in the league at 18, whereas Jordan didn't have that luxury. By the same token, Jordan can boast a more mature set of accomplishments due to not being 18 years old playing against the very best in the world.

I'm not sure why you think it is "better" to lose in the playoffs in the early rounds than to lose in the Finals. Carrying a team (and nobody can claim Lebron didn't carry the Cavs) to the Finals and losing there is more of an accomplishment than getting knocked out early. Ask Derrick Rose which of the two he would take. Who wouldn't want a chance to play a best of seven for it all?

When looking at the two players, their eras are completely different for many reasons. A straight up comparison is foolish. Both were clearly head and shoulders better than those around them, even the other top tier players.

Lebron has his best years ahead of him and if he takes full advantage of his abilities and talents that should be enough to win multiple championships. Not one, not two, not three, not four....

As a fan of the game itself, you have to appreciate the way Lebron conducts himself and the way he plays unselfishly on the floor. There is no hope at all that MJ will ever be an ambassador to the game and help others achieve greatness. His approach has always been that of a sociopath, to destroy those around him.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,648
0
71
Jordan made the players around him better in a way that I don't think LeBron does now or will do in Miami or did in Cleveland. Jordan transformed his team by killing them in practices and forcing them to be better. Not sure LeBron is the same way.

Not to say anything about how LeBron with his vision and passing abilities is able to open up opportunities for his teammates that they wouldn't normally get, I'm talking about their respective impacts on player development.

Rodman was the best rebounder in history before he played with Jordan. I guess you can claim Pippen wouldn't have been a great player without Jordan, but I haven't seen a single piece of evidence to support that claim other than the fact they played together.

Phil Jackson deserves most of the credit for pushing the right buttons, most notably for pushing Jordan's buttons correctly. He was able to accentuate Jordan's best quality (pure scorer) and limit his worst (terrible terrible teammate both on the court and off). I think you do a huge disservice to the greatest NBA coach in history to pretend that Jordan was the cause of the Bulls player development and not Phil.

I think history post 1998 will bear out who can claim responsibility for player development. There is a reason Phil went on to 5 more championships while Jordan built the worst team in NBA history.