Mexican Army in Phoenix...

[crystal]

OK - 6 guys committed the assassination. Fire about 50 -100 rounds into the house. Let be generous and let said each fired 20 rounds or the extreme case where 3 arrested fire all the round ~ 35 rounds each. And they already ran out of ammo? I am pretty sure some duck hunters carry more round than them.

 

[OrByte]

I think fences and technology had their chance, people keep finding their way in.

The solution is political and economical, and it starts with the Mexican government.

We should be busy doing 'nation building' right next door instead of half the world away.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
People come to this country on rafts across the ocean. Crossing rivers and deserts. If you really think that a cost-prohibitive fence is the answer...I might be wasting my time even entering into this conversation with you.

It's not THE answer but it is part of the answer. The other part would be to stop offering so many benefits to illegals that come here. The tunnel you linked to was being used as part of a drug-smuggling operation. It was coined 'elaborate' and 'well-funded'. In other words, the fence that is currently up along the California/Mexico border near San Diego works so well that Mexican drug cartels have to go through expensive and intensive methods to get around it.

And hey, it works for Spain.

 

[middlehead]

Originally posted by: Analog
Spencer said a police officer told him that one of the men captured said they were completely prepared to ambush Phoenix police, but ran out of ammunition.

If they ran out of ammunition they weren't completely prepared.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: OrByte
I think fences and technology had their chance, people keep finding their way in.

The solution is political and economical, and it starts with the Mexican government.

We should be busy doing 'nation building' right next door instead of half the world away.

Other than at San Diego and a small portion in Texas, fences and technology have not been give a chance at all.

And I agree that political and economical pressure change is needed in the Mexican gov't. Unfortunately, they've avoided this by using illegal immigration as a pressure valve release by encouraging disgruntled and discouraged Mexican to come to the USA and send US dollars back.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
People come to this country on rafts across the ocean. Crossing rivers and deserts. If you really think that a cost-prohibitive fence is the answer...I might be wasting my time even entering into this conversation with you.

It's not THE answer but it is part of the answer. The other part would be to stop offering so many benefits to illegals that come here. The tunnel you linked to was being used as part of a drug-smuggling operation. It was coined 'elaborate' and 'well-funded'. In other words, the fence that is currently up along the California/Mexico border near San Diego works so well that Mexican drug cartels have to go through expensive and intensive methods to get around it.

And hey, it works for Spain.

wow, i had to google Melilla and Ceuta and that is very interesting.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: OrByte
I think fences and technology had their chance, people keep finding their way in.

The solution is political and economical, and it starts with the Mexican government.

We should be busy doing 'nation building' right next door instead of half the world away.

no it does not start with the mexican government. It starts with our own governemnt from the feds all the way down to local. it starts with the government fining the shit out business who employ illegals.

you take away the jobs you take away the need to come here.

 

[JakwoW]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: JakwoW

Originally posted by: waggy
seems like a invasion to me.


Why don't we have the military on oure boarder? shouldnt that be a job for them? you know defending the country?

Because Great Almighty Bush sent them all away to fight the terr-ists.

that would be a good argument IF we had the troops on the boarder BEFORE bush was in office.

Horseshit. It's a good argument either way. The national guard is supposed to be here to . . . IDK, guard the nation. Now when they are needed . . . we are fucked.

 

[darkxshade]

Too bad they took on the wrong targets, with the arsenal they had, they could've invaded Canada.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
The OP is fear mongering and left out a wee-tiny part of the story:

Sgt. Joel Tranter said one suspect revealed that he had "prior military training," but "no credible evidence" that any of them were active in the military.

Unless it can be linked to the Mexican military and can be verified that it was sanctioned by or commissioned by the Mexican military, this is nothing more than three men that may or may not have been military that are either deserters, veterans, AWOL or liars.

Until that can be proven, I'd like to think that Bush is smart enough to keep the international incidents down to the one debacle that we currently are heavily bogged down in.

I don't give a shit if they were part of the Mexican Army or not. Their dumb asses should not have been here and doing the shit they were.

Until we have REAL border security this kind of bullshit is only going to get worse and more frequent.

And just what do you envision this real border security looking like? I noticed that you quoted Queasy's post so I'm guessing that you think it is a starting point. What else?

A question for you and Queasy, what does your little fence accomplish when those that it is intended to keep out don't even bother going over or around it...but under it?

U.S. agents had been investigating the possibility of an elaborate drug-smuggling tunnel between Tijuana and San Diego for more than a year, but couldn't find it despite using military equipment so advanced it's classified.

Instead, as often happens with drug cases, the break came from tips.

The tips led to the discovery of the longest cross-border tunnel in U.S. history, running nearly a half-mile from a small warehouse near Tijuana's airport to the large Otay Mesa warehouse.

?This tunnel beats them all,? said Michael Unzueta, special agent in charge of the San Diego office of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which investigated the case along with the Drug Enforcement Administration and the Border Patrol.

The tunnel runs 2,400 feet through sandstone and compacted sand and is equipped with lighting, ventilation and groundwater drainage systems.

Chest-high water collected at its deepest point, more than nine stories below warehouses and busy border roads in Otay Mesa.

?This is like being in a really big, long mine shaft,? Unzueta said after walking through the muggy passageway. ?It's really just carved right into the earth.?

Concrete was used to provide steady footing at a steep incline on the U.S. side as well as to support the walls of an 85-foot shaft under the Mexican warehouse.

Inside a large warehouse in Otay Mesa yesterday, investigators showed the opening into a 2,400-foot cross-border tunnel. Agents said the tunnel was the work of a well-funded and determined drug-smuggling group.
The tunnel was the work of a well-funded and determined drug-smuggling group, Unzueta said.

Mexican agents seized 2 tons of marijuana on the Mexican side. Their U.S. counterparts found 200 pounds.

Neither side has reported any arrests.

People come to this country on rafts across the ocean. Crossing rivers and deserts. If you really think that a cost-prohibitive fence is the answer...I might be wasting my time even entering into this conversation with you.

We have the technology to detect and locate that type of illegal border crossing. Like everything else though it takes someone really wanting to stop the flow of illegals into this country. Until a politician has the balls to say enough is enough and really allocate the resources necessary to stop the flood of illegals we are going to continue to be overrun.

Before someone steps in with the..."but 99% of the illegals are law abiding people who just want to work" argument.

1. If they were law abiding they wouldn't cross illegally in the first place.
2. 99% may be hard workers, but I don't want the 1% that aren't here. We have enough of our own deadbeats that we don't need to be importing them.

I agree with you on that. It is the means to accomplish it that I disagree with. Here are some of the steps that I would like to see implemented that I believe could have an immediate impact on it:

1. Stop the drug war -- if MJ were legal, a lot of the money that the criminals get would be wiped out making their ability to build tunnels like the one discussed above way too costly for them. 4200 lbs of pot will go a pretty long way of padding a bank account. Note: I have never even smoked a cigarette let alone a joint so that isn't me trying to get a stoner fix met.

2. Work with Mexico on getting better healthcare and education systems and building their economy -- these seem to be the three big reasons for coming here. If we were able to stop US corporations from using Mexico as a sweat shop and was able to pull the urban areas out of third world status, they wouldn't have reason to come here for work. Also, if they had a healthcare and education system that prepared them physically and mentally for life, they would be better off than they are when they come here.

3. Penalize corporations for exploitation of the Mexican population -- charge tariffs if the products truly are "Hecho en Mexico" then charge them as such. Corporations should also be fined heavily when caught using illegals as a workforce in America (this includes farms). I'm not saying that they should be held criminally liable, but civilly, you betchya. If the company/farm is big enough (say > 25 employees), they should be able to consult with someone to verify that the person they are about to hire has legal documents.

4. Government should train/provide documentation services -- most people do not have the ability to verify/validate documentation of applicants. The .gov should be able to put in place a DB or training system cheaper than the cost of building a 1600+ mile fence and manning it to validate an applicant's status. If the employer follows this step and is still tripped up, then #3 does not apply.

These are just a couple of things that I think would help with the illegal immigration problem. You may (probably) think that I'm crazy for thinking so...that's your prerogative. But it is certainly better than the offers currently presented to us by the .gov IMO.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Shouldn't this be an international incident?

Originally posted by: Citrix
why hasent this hit the national news. its funny how anything that Mexico does is swept under the rug and not talked about. what are OUR elected politicians afraid of??

You don't want to rock the Hispanic vote. Dems and Republicans will both keep mum.

 

[crystal]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Shouldn't this be an international incident?

Originally posted by: Citrix
why hasent this hit the national news. its funny how anything that Mexico does is swept under the rug and not talked about. what are OUR elected politicians afraid of??

You don't want to rock the Hispanic vote. Dems and Republicans will both keep mum.

Why should this be an international incident? They are just some hire thugs.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: crystal
OK - 6 guys committed the assassination. Fire about 50 -100 rounds into the house. Let be generous and let said each fired 20 rounds or the extreme case where 3 arrested fire all the round ~ 35 rounds each. And they already ran out of ammo? I am pretty sure some duck hunters carry more round than them.

The Wally Mart they went to was short on ar-15 ammo. Correct me if I am wrong, there is quite a few Reservist along the boarder. Tasking a satellite to do 15 min arc pass of the border is not that big a deal either. see people walking towards the states on satellite imagery? Send reservist with Bradley. Call it their SAR exercise.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Analog


Spencer said a police officer told him that one of the men captured said they were completely prepared to ambush Phoenix police, but ran out of ammunition.

So in other words, they weren't prepared.

Originally posted by: waggy
seems like a invasion to me.


Why don't we have the military on oure boarder? shouldnt that be a job for them? you know defending the country?

I really wonder what's going on in your head sometimes waggy. Invasion? Seriously? Three criminals who were also members of the Mexican military who misused their military equipment = an invasion? You seriously think we need to put the army on the border to defend against the Mexican army? Should we put them on the Canadian border too, just in case they invade us? We are at peace with Mexico, the Mexican military is not going to invade us. The military's job is not to stop criminals.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Analog


Spencer said a police officer told him that one of the men captured said they were completely prepared to ambush Phoenix police, but ran out of ammunition.

So in other words, they weren't prepared.

Originally posted by: waggy
seems like a invasion to me.


Why don't we have the military on oure boarder? shouldnt that be a job for them? you know defending the country?

I really wonder what's going on in your head sometimes waggy. Invasion? Seriously? Three criminals who were also members of the Mexican military who misused their military equipment = an invasion? You seriously think we need to put the army on the border to defend against the Mexican army? Should we put them on the Canadian border too, just in case they invade us? We are at peace with Mexico, the Mexican military is not going to invade us. The military's job is not to stop criminals.

yes a invasion. not just these 3 but the millions that come over.


we need to protect the boarders not just from the mexican army (wich this is not the first case of them comeing over) but the millions that come over.

i would think part of the Military's job is to defend the boarders.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Analog


Spencer said a police officer told him that one of the men captured said they were completely prepared to ambush Phoenix police, but ran out of ammunition.

So in other words, they weren't prepared.

Originally posted by: waggy
seems like a invasion to me.


Why don't we have the military on oure boarder? shouldnt that be a job for them? you know defending the country?

I really wonder what's going on in your head sometimes waggy. Invasion? Seriously? Three criminals who were also members of the Mexican military who misused their military equipment = an invasion? You seriously think we need to put the army on the border to defend against the Mexican army? Should we put them on the Canadian border too, just in case they invade us? We are at peace with Mexico, the Mexican military is not going to invade us. The military's job is not to stop criminals.

yes a invasion. not just these 3 but the millions that come over.


we need to protect the boarders not just from the mexican army (wich this is not the first case of them comeing over) but the millions that come over.

i would think part of the Military's job is to defend the boarders.

You think millions of illegal immigrants are coming here to attack us?

 

[NeoV]

good thing these criminals were able to buy AR-15's though.......

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Analog


Spencer said a police officer told him that one of the men captured said they were completely prepared to ambush Phoenix police, but ran out of ammunition.

So in other words, they weren't prepared.

Originally posted by: waggy
seems like a invasion to me.


Why don't we have the military on oure boarder? shouldnt that be a job for them? you know defending the country?

I really wonder what's going on in your head sometimes waggy. Invasion? Seriously? Three criminals who were also members of the Mexican military who misused their military equipment = an invasion? You seriously think we need to put the army on the border to defend against the Mexican army? Should we put them on the Canadian border too, just in case they invade us? We are at peace with Mexico, the Mexican military is not going to invade us. The military's job is not to stop criminals.

yes a invasion. not just these 3 but the millions that come over.


we need to protect the boarders not just from the mexican army (wich this is not the first case of them comeing over) but the millions that come over.

i would think part of the Military's job is to defend the boarders.

You think millions of illegal immigrants are coming here to attack us?

Well, of course! They're here to attack our American way of life by doing $2/hr jobs!

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Analog


Spencer said a police officer told him that one of the men captured said they were completely prepared to ambush Phoenix police, but ran out of ammunition.

So in other words, they weren't prepared.

Originally posted by: waggy
seems like a invasion to me.


Why don't we have the military on oure boarder? shouldnt that be a job for them? you know defending the country?

I really wonder what's going on in your head sometimes waggy. Invasion? Seriously? Three criminals who were also members of the Mexican military who misused their military equipment = an invasion? You seriously think we need to put the army on the border to defend against the Mexican army? Should we put them on the Canadian border too, just in case they invade us? We are at peace with Mexico, the Mexican military is not going to invade us. The military's job is not to stop criminals.

yes a invasion. not just these 3 but the millions that come over.


we need to protect the boarders not just from the mexican army (wich this is not the first case of them comeing over) but the millions that come over.

i would think part of the Military's job is to defend the boarders.

You think millions of illegal immigrants are coming here to attack us?

there are many that are coming over and commiting crimes and putting a major burden on the tax payers.

we should have the military on it to defend it.

if you don't agree thats your choice.

 

[DanTMWTMP]

Originally posted by: waggy


there are many that are coming over and commiting crimes and putting a major burden on the tax payers.

we should have the military on it to defend it.

if you don't agree thats your choice.

typical... you live in illinois. You have no say in this. You form an opinion, yet the events down here has no bearing on your lifestyle up there. This only concerns people that live in the states, so your opinion is moot. In fact, anyone who doesn't live in the border states shouldn't have an opinion on this.

I have my own opinion on immigration, but as of now, there is no easy answer, nor is there a proper solution to this "issue." That's the bottom line.

I'm all for another amnesty since it's logistically and logically the "best" solution. I personally may not like it on principle, but logically, it makes sense for our local communities down here. I'm all for stronger border patrol, but border patrol jobs here are ranked so lowly in the job spectrum here. No one wants to do it.

I think the idea of a worker-visa program shows a lot of promise. Southern California has been shot to hell during globalization and NAFTA. One of the things that saved the local businesses here are, ironically, illegal immigrants. That is why non of the public officials enforce the law against illegals. Our local economy is now waay too dependent on immigrants. Once fines are enforced, say bye to our local economy. Blame it on NAFTA/globalization... blame it on the events leading up to our current situation...blah..
It's just the way it is here. People here, actually, don't care anymore. Any border-town through history were trade posts and mixing pots of people between two nations. This cannot be stopped. So people who don't live here, don't say anything. The situation we have now is too deep to really do anything about it, and also, it was inevitable given the fact that DUH, we are a capitalistic-human society --> This is what border states/towns do.



The large mexican centers (pomona, el monte, etc) are actually thriving centers of local business and micro economies. Although these cities' infrastructure is old, it's absolutely refreshing NOT to see a walmart, a mcdonalds, a ralphs, a starbucks anywhere. These cities know that and forbid large chains from setting up shops there. I'm sure a lot of these locals hire illegals, but I know a lot of them are here legally as well.

As for your crime argument, I think 2nd-gen + generate more crime than illegals. Crime comes wherever you are anyway. I always thought adding crime to this issue was a weak argument.

I'm on the fence in this argument since there are good points on either side.

It's just that right now, I seriously do not see any real solution to this. It also seems that people who do not live in these areas have more of an issue with this than people who live in the border states.

 

[m1ldslide1]

Legalize! No more drug crime, at least of the organized nature.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: waggy

there are many that are coming over and commiting crimes and putting a major burden on the tax payers.

we should have the military on it to defend it.

if you don't agree thats your choice.

I agree that we need to prevent people from crossing the border illegally, but that isn't the job of the military. The military exists for defense, not immigration control or law enforcement. We actually have other government agencies that take care of immigration and law enforcement.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: waggy

there are many that are coming over and commiting crimes and putting a major burden on the tax payers.

we should have the military on it to defend it.

if you don't agree thats your choice.

I agree that we need to prevent people from crossing the border illegally, but that isn't the job of the military. The military exists for defense, not immigration control or law enforcement. We actually have other government agencies that take care of immigration and law enforcement.

Except they seem to be plumbing new depths of failure in this regard.

 

[Wheezer]

I have said it before, we have THOUSANDS of illegals in our prison system (at about a cost of $10,000-20,000 per inmate to the taxpayers), we also have THOUSANDS of non-violent criminals just sitting around doing nothing lets get them down there and teach them some trade skills by having them assist in the construction of a nice sturdy border wall....it can be done, it has been done (Berlin Wall anyone) and afterwards we can march those illegals through the door and slam it shut behind them.

1- we get secure borders

2-inmates that would normally just sit around stealing oxygen get to be productive.

3-the idea of incarceration is "rehabilitation"...rehabilitate them through work and learning a trade they can take with them.

 

[IGBT]

..isn't it great they are doing all they can to assure American Druggies can have their recreational drugs??