Memory clarification - plz help

[mooseyfate]

I need some clarification on DDR2 desktop memory that I'm having trouble selecting for use on a 965 motherboard. I may or may not overclock, but it won't be too aggressive.

1) SS / DS: I believe refers to single sided / dual sided memory. This has nothing to do with dual channel. It only has to do with if individual ram chips are on one or both sides of a ram board/stick. Does this matter to the average end consumer? There's no physical problem with mounting two DS chips next to each other, is there?

2a) Running Dual Channel: To run in dual channel mode you need two ram sticks, preferably identical, and a motherboard that is dual channel supported. Anything else? Does SS / DS play a factor? Will any identical DDR2 work (baring specific motherboard issues with specific ram)?

2b) Dual Channel Operation: Is dual channel a clear improvement over single? I know the basic theory that it reduces the bottle neck of data going from the ram to the cpu. You basically have the ram of each chip, moving faster because of the other, right? In other words, 2 x 1GB single channel chips = 2GB of ram, but would 2 x 1GB dual channel = 2GB of faster ram, or just 1GB of faster ram (in principle like RAID 0)? Basically, I'm wondering if there are any trade offs to why you wouldn't use dual channel, but answering that last question would help me determine for myself the amount of ram to get.

 

[mooseyfate]

And if your feeling ambitions, I was also wondering about these things.

3) 965 Warning: "Notice: Only DDR2-800 memory supporting JEDEC approved 1.8V operation with timings of 5-5-5 or 6-6-6 is supported on Intel Desktop Boards based on Intel 965 Express Chipsets." This only reffers to DDR2-800 ram, not DDR-600 or below, correct? Seeing as many QVL approved ram sticks for certain manufacturers motherboards recommend ram with more volts or lower timing, I believe this warning to be pretty much nonsense.

4) Volts vs. Timing/Latency: Increasing volts increases ram MHz and decreases timing, right? It seems like most the desired ram is higher than average voltage, lower than average timing. But if you overclock low voltage ram, it should also increase in MHz/decrease in timing, right? So does the previously mentioned more desired ram just means it starts overclocked? I've been prioritizing low voltage, then low timing, but I may be looking for the opposite of what I should be.

5) ECC: I know very little about this, just that it's advanced error detection. Do I need to worry about this? The ram has to support ECC, but does the motherboard (I know it has to be set up in the bios, but I've never seen the stat on a MB that says ECC supported)?

Answers to any of these are greatly appreciated. I could just pick an approved one, but that severely limits my selection, and I might try to shoot for a type of ram that is counterproductive. I don't need the top of the line ram, but I'd like to know how close I'm coming. Thanks!

 

[Roguestar]

It'd be quicker for us to give you memory reccommendations if you tell us which board .

Read this thread in the CPU forum

As to your questions, I'll try and answer them though I don't know it all and I'm a bit pressed for time this very moment .

1) Nothing to worry about at all. Just the way some manufacturers have made larger (memory size wise) sticks by putting chips on both sides instead of double-capacity more expensive chips on one. Makes no difference to Average Joe.
2) Two identical sticks and 99% of 965 chipsets will pretty much guarantee you dual channel.
3) A technicality; DDR2's official specification states it runs at 1.8v. When your board boots, you can keep your vDIMM at 1.8 or for better stability if you're going to overclock (or neccessity on some sticks) change it to +0.3, ie: 2.1v. Again, nothing to worry about as you'll likely change those settings for a mild overclock anyway.
4) Increasing volts helps you increase memory bus speed. 2.1 -> 2.3 is usual for mildly overclocked RAM. Decent RAM mentioned in the thread I linked will overclock well anyway. DDR2 sticks that run at 2.1v as standard aren't pre-overclocked, they just need a little more juice than the official specification, which is pretty usual now.
5) Nothing to worry about if you just get some RAM mentioned in the conroe memory thread .

That's by no means a comprehensive answer and I'm sure someone will be able to correct parts I may have wrong or expand on stuff, but I hope that helps and can say once again you should go read that thread I linked .

 

[Blain]

Originally posted by: mooseyfate
I've never seen the stat on a MB that says ECC supported[/i]

That's because you've not been digging. :roll:
The Newegg, etc. listed MB "specifications" aren't always complete.

Open your eyes, young Jedi... Then you will see! :laugh:

 

[mooseyfate]

You guys Rock! That was very concise and informative. I'm still wondering about question (2b), but more just because I'm curious than it would impact my purchase decision.

Telling you my MB for RAM recommendations is tough though. I settled on the ASUS P5B -E or Deluxe ($150 vs $177), but read so many memory issues with it I took a day just looking into memory, and started thinking if it's this hard for me to decide, maybe overclocking is out of my league. So I thought Gigabyte DS3 or Intel BOXDG965WHMKR. I have the impression that neither board would OC like the ASUS, but that each is quite nice at stock settings.

System priority:
1) Stability
2) Easy Setup/maintenance
3) Performance
I've never OC-ed, and am ok without OC-ing, but after researching, it seems like OC-ing might be nice. But now with all the headache the ram/MB research has been, I just want something stable and likely won't get into OC-ing right away. The games I play worked well by my standards on a 2003 Athlon 64 3000 laptop/ATI mobile graphics/1GB ram before the laptop motherboard started going bad about a year ago. It's still kickin, but it's time for something better.


So, I kind of have and idea for two directions to go (Conroe E6400).

No-Low OC
GIGABYTE DS3 (Gigabyte is supposed to have a Micron D9 issue or something, so I'm not sure why Micron based ram is recommended even for Gigabyte)
2 x 1GB DDR2 667: SUPER TALENT
$326

Mild OC
ASUS P5B DELUXE:
2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR2 800: SUPER TALENT, PATRIOT, or BUFFALO FIRESTIX
$410-457 ($84-131 difference)

Factor in power supply, and that's about a $145-ish difference. Originally, I couldn't justify spending $250-275 on ram. But I guess the total difference is borderline worth it for something I know will run good and can OC if I please. If I don't OC it's probably a waste though.

Let me know what you think. If you have advice on a MB not listed, I'm all ears!

 

[Roguestar]

2b) Dual-channel configuration allows the effective memory bandwidth from the CPU through the memory controller to the RAM to be doubled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_channel

The DS3, S3 or PSB-E are good choices for a motherboard but then really your memory choice boils down to what you're willing to spend on RAM . The thread I linked earlier does a better job than I could of price, performance and reasoning but suffice to say if you picked something from the list in that thread (and if you read it, bump it with a "thanks for the advice" comment ) you're on the right track to good performance RAM and an easier overclock.

Whether or not to overclock? I'd say you should do for it. If you overclock your E6400 to 3.2Ghz (400x8) then that's faster already than the X6800, and at a fraction of the price. There's no reason not to go for it now given that the conroe overclocks so easily and without huge voltages or requiring special cooling. It's basically a good way to get more performance for your money.

If you're thinking of the DS3 for no overclocking to be honest it's a bit of a waste. The board is practically designed to help overclocking. You could save a bit more by going for the S3 but that's just as good an overclocker. Check out Duvie's sig for his S3 board rigs. They're all at around 3.4Ghz! The DS3 had issues with micron D9 but that is supposedly fixed with the F6 BIOS iirc, so you shouldn't have much trouble with that anyway, and not with the RAM you are thinking of to go with it.

So basically if overclocking isn't a priority for you but something you may be interested in, to leave your options open you could get the Gigabyte S3, the E6400 and the Super Talent RAM. And no matter what you go for, if you overclock it don't forget to come back and tell us how it went .

Hope this helps!

 

[mooseyfate]

Yep, all ready saw that wiki link. I very much value your and Blains relies and had read them closely. I didn't bump the thread because I'm not a big fan of bumping and it's all ready a very long post. But I have something small I could say (even though it's been bumped

I'm going to try to confirm the S3 micron issue. Probably go with the more expensive ram too. I like the sounds Super Talent the most, but probably go patriot for cost.

The only real advantage I'm seeing to the more expensive PSB-E is the 3.0 Gb/s port (SATA On-the-Go) via JMicron, and the eSATA input. Might make connecting an external SATA II drive more convenient. I can just get a eSATA bracket though.

If the Micron issue is fixed, I bet both boards perform so close to the same I couldn't notice the difference. I'd want the board that's the least headache to initially setup and overclock more than anything else. Any opinion on this?

 

[mooseyfate]

I have heard (from Duvie, from wich this info is paraphrased) that the micron issue is clearing up, so I'm not longer worried about it. Not much happened with F6 bios though. F7 improved a little and F8 made the biggest difference. F8 is still in beta, and I wouldn't want to go anywhere near a beta bios. But that means it will be good enough in the forseeable future as to not be an issue.

 

[Roguestar]

Then by the time you order and get your stuff the F8 BIOS will be closer to being ready .

 

[mooseyfate]

By the time I order, DDR2 will be old news, lol

 

[Roguestar]

"I'll leave it until next week incase there's a better deal on then" .

Procrastination, the sport of kings.

 

[mooseyfate]

I don't know if I'd call it procrastination or indecisiveness. Stupid MB/RAM confusion.

 

[mooseyfate]

Finally ordered

Here's the heart:
Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 Conroe
ASUS P5B-E
Super Tallent Micron ram (2 x 1GB) DDR2 800
Corsair HX520w
XFX GeForce 7600GT

Then I'm also getting:
Cooler Master case
2xWestern Digital OEM 250gb SATAII drives. One main, one raid 1 or external backup (as the spirit moves me)
Vantec external enclosure (SATAII or USB speed connection)
HDTV tuner
2xScythe 1200 rpm silent cooling case fans
Scythe Ninja CPU cooler
Logitech G15/G5 wired keyboard/mouse
Windows XP Pro 32 bit OEM

Wanted this optical drive, but wasn't in stock. I'll use an old cd-rom for the time being.

Cost for core: $909.96 ($869.96 with rebates)
Cost for everything: $1531.25 ( - $55 in rebates)
+ $45.26 shipping
+ ~$30 if optical drive was in stock

That's on the high side of what I'd consider best bang for your buck. But everyones scale for that sort of thing is different. Could have cut core costs by $250 ($100 mb, E6300, 1GB of good budget ram) with reduced power and OC potential, but still in the same real-world performance practicality ballpark. I'm pretty happy with it. Now lets just hope everything works, and that I'm not getting in over my head with overclocking.

 

[n7]

Very very good choices.

P5B-E is a piece of cake to OC, i'd say even easier than my P5B-D.
My buddy just built himself a new rig around a P5B-E & E6300, & with the Intel stock cooler he's already happily running 7x450

RAM = :thumbsup:
HX520 = :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I just bought that very PSU to quiet down my rig, & wow, it is quiet.
Vantec enclosure = :thumbsup: eSATA rox; i have the same one.
Nice quiet case fans & HSF too.

Yeah i must say i like every single choice you made :thumbsup:

 

[Roguestar]

Don't forget to let us know how it goes once you've put it all together!

 

[mooseyfate]

Man, after like 2 weeks of straight research, I hope I made good choices. That's the main motivation for building it myself. More to get everything exactly just so than to save a little cash. At one point in the process, I figured I'd be saving about $70 over going with CyberPower. But it may not even be that much with the ram I got. I love that company, and do plan on using them again. That amount of money is more than worth it for their service. But this time around I wanted to build it myself. PS - if your reading this CyberPower, please add a case selection that's black, plain, no LED's, no front door. LOL

Yeah, send me angry PM's if I don't report back on how it goes

I still need to select a DVD burner and high color quality, rotating 20-22" widescreen LCD monitor. Then everything will be just so. Thinking the ND-3550A DVD burner. I'd go Dell for the monitor, but they don't put out a consitent product. No way I'm gambling with something like that. Bad Dell, go stand in the corner!

 

[n7]

NEC 20GX2

Very pricey, but for good reason.

Best 1680x1050 display money can buy.

 

[crydee]

I got almost same build as you but I got the Deluxe version and the Crucial 10th anniversary which is some wicked stuff. You'll be happy.