Mea culpa

[zinfamous]

The only problem with this is that it's complete bullshit. Hillary won out with voters with incomes less than $50. So, sorry, I don't buy the bullshit that this election was about the poor white man.

https://www.statista.com/statistics...e-exit-polls-of-the-2016-elections-by-income/

Hillary lost because dems didn't show up in areas she needed, period, end of story, game, set, match.


Just to try and put this "trump supporters are not racist", to bed so let me say this: a lot of trump supporters are racist, they aren't the type of racists that shout, "white power" when they pass each other by. They aren't the type of racists that email each other Obama-watermelon memes either. No, these are the sort of people who are simply race ignorant. These are the sort of people who grew up in all white towns who's interaction with minorities is extremely limited and who's pre conceived notions of minorities mirrors common stereotypes. These people simply aren't aware of the dog whistles trump used or even why minorities would be offended by anything trump said. They are race ignorant.

I never said there aren't racist Trump supporters. Plenty of them are. I didn't say this was about "poor white men." I said this was about those groups in historic democrat leaning counties that were sick of the same message over and over and over again. Yes, these people certainly had it rough, but I imagine enough poor white people voted for her in other states where it didn't matter as much.

There were plenty of racists that voted for Trump, but here is why they didn't matter:

--Trump still got less votes than Romney (so far--currently 300k less, last I checked, even though he showed better against Latinos and women. crazy, right?)
--Yes, if Clinton got the other numbers in other places, maybe these counties wouldn't have mattered. If those people show up, it further negates the racist quotient. But you know what? even those people "shouldn't" have needed to show up because:
--these, her "guaranteed voters" that she didn't visit, didn't vote for her. None of you guys have explained why they went from CLinton, to Gore, to Kerry, to Obama to Obama...to Trump. Suddenly they are racist, poor white assholes?

OK, sure. what the fuck ever. How about accepting that those ~60-70k voters (last I checked across the 3 states), voted for "the dem like they were supposed to!", then you guys wouldn't be complaining.

You think drawing out more voters in FL or NC would have made a difference? Hillary got more voters in FL than Obama did. She out-pulled her "guarantee win number" ...but it wasn't enough. And it shouldn't have mattered. She only needed her "lock states" whoops.

and sorry: I don't mean to imply that you are the one calling them racist. That is agent who, for whatever reason, has always insisted that everyone is apparently racist. Maybe one day he will understand. Maybe.

 

[agent00f]

--these, her "guaranteed voters" that she didn't visit, didn't vote for her. None of you guys have explained why they went from CLinton, to Gore, to Kerry, to Obama to Obama...to Trump. Suddenly they are racist, poor white assholes?

Has anyone based their national campaign plank on scorning minorities in recent memory?

Again in fairness to trump, he deftly tied "illegals" (a low status group easy to hate on) who aren't exactly interviewing for white jobs to the brownies in brownieland factories that used to be in merica, which is some pretty straight up racism even if nobody wants to admit to it. He saw it works a crowd and turned that shit up to 11. And it got him +14% on the demo that ended up mattering the most due to a fluke of history.

 

[ivwshane]

Given how close american elections are (ie nobody really changes their mind), I think it's very significant that Trump pulled off +14% uneducated whites in one cycle.

He had to sacrifice -8 college grad to get that, but it was well worth it the way state/EC lines were drawn. Everybody, include his own party, thought it was misguided to keep going with the macho minority group hating BS after the primaries, but everyone was wrong because these guys delivered him the election in the places that mattered.

Yeah but that points to his ability to connect with the uneducated, which racial ignorance is apart of. You'll have to prove your case better if you want to show these double Obama voters are self identifying racists.

 

[ivwshane]

I don't think it was so much planned out as much as felt out by Trump. No matter what people think about politics in this country, most politicians do have some self-respect/dignity. So as a certain type of outsider, he was uniquely positioned to ignore that convention and say whatever it takes to rile up a crowd, and there's a certain crowd he has savant level ability to rile. It probably took some experience with reality TV and such to learn the ropes.

So in a sense it was a flukish win in that those people were in the states which turned the tide, but in fairness he used the tools available to him the best he could to get the W. I'm sure most of us have seen enough sports to understand that situation.

A con man is a con man who cons people. A good con man, of which trump is, knows how to read and connect with people in order to pull off his con. He already had the skill, he's simply been testing his marks to see what they connect with and he's been doing it since the 80's. He found that hot button when he hopped on the birther movement.

 

[ivwshane]

I never said there aren't racist Trump supporters. Plenty of them are. I didn't say this was about "poor white men." I said this was about those groups in historic democrat leaning counties that were sick of the same message over and over and over again. Yes, these people certainly had it rough, but I imagine enough poor white people voted for her in other states where it didn't matter as much.

There were plenty of racists that voted for Trump, but here is why they didn't matter:

--Trump still got less votes than Romney (so far--currently 300k less, last I checked, even though he showed better against Latinos and women. crazy, right?)
--Yes, if Clinton got the other numbers in other places, maybe these counties wouldn't have mattered. If those people show up, it further negates the racist quotient. But you know what? even those people "shouldn't" have needed to show up because:
--these, her "guaranteed voters" that she didn't visit, didn't vote for her. None of you guys have explained why they went from CLinton, to Gore, to Kerry, to Obama to Obama...to Trump. Suddenly they are racist, poor white assholes?

OK, sure. what the fuck ever. How about accepting that those ~60-70k voters (last I checked across the 3 states), voted for "the dem like they were supposed to!", then you guys wouldn't be complaining.

You think drawing out more voters in FL or NC would have made a difference? Hillary got more voters in FL than Obama did. She out-pulled her "guarantee win number" ...but it wasn't enough. And it shouldn't have mattered. She only needed her "lock states" whoops.

and sorry: I don't mean to imply that you are the one calling them racist. That is agent who, for whatever reason, has always insisted that everyone is apparently racist. Maybe one day he will understand. Maybe.

What I'm saying is that, based on the data we have, people did not vote for trump because they had it rough, in fact its the opposite. They are doing fine.

 

[agent00f]

Yeah but that points to his ability to connect with the uneducated, which racial ignorance is apart of. You'll have to prove your case better if you want to show these double Obama voters are self identifying racists.

They're not cross burning racists, they're "minorities are getting ahead at the expense of whites" racists who surveyed off the charts for trump even among the gop field: https://thewpsa.wordpress.com/2016/03/27/racial-resentment-and-the-rise-of-donald-trump/. That's why the "illegals r takin yer shit" mission statement lapped the field and took him to the white house. Turns out a lot of people in whitesville who might even feel good voting for non-threatening Harvard law here respond in the opposite to Manuel hoping the fence and getting in the union or Muhammad blowing them up.

 

[ivwshane]

They're not cross burning racists, they're "minorities are getting ahead at the expense of whites" racists who surveyed off the charts for trump even among the gop field: https://thewpsa.wordpress.com/2016/03/27/racial-resentment-and-the-rise-of-donald-trump/. That's why the "illegals r takin yer shit" mission statement lapped the field and took him to the white house. Turns out a lot of people in whitesville who might even feel good voting for non-threatening Harvard law here respond in the opposite to Manuel hoping the fence and getting in the union or Muhammad blowing them up.

You are now saying what I was saying. There is a difference between old school racism and sub conscious racism. The difference is that the latter would most likely change their views if they interacted with minorities more.

 

[agent00f]

You are now saying what I was saying. There is a difference between old school racism and sub conscious racism.

It's not just subconscious. It's just not blatant because they're aware of the consequences. That's why they absolutely despise PC, ie forcible repression of what they really think. Trump's great accomplishment is giving them a means to voice it: https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/trumps-win-wasnt-about-racism.2491659/page-4#post-38572933

The difference is that the latter would most likely change their views if they interacted with minorities more.

That's not going to happen if you've been to these places. They were built up as de facto segregated from the start. Just look up how the demographics are distributed around town for BLM riots near those parts.

 

[ivwshane]

It's not just subconscious. It's just not blatant because they're aware of the consequences. That's why they absolutely despise PC, ie forcible repression of what they really think. Trump's great accomplishment is giving them a means to voice it: https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/trumps-win-wasnt-about-racism.2491659/page-4#post-38572933



That's not going to happen if you've been to these places. They were built up as de facto segregated from the start. Just look up how the demographics are distributed around town for BLM riots near those parts.

I think you are confusing trumps basket of deplorables and the voters who voted for Obama twice and then voted for trump. They are not the same.

 

[agent00f]

I think you are confusing trumps basket of deplorables and the voters who voted for Obama twice and then voted for trump. They are not the same.

Mr. Harvard Law who just happens to have a skin condition is not really the sort they're bigoted against. And McCain/Romney/establishment aren't exactly painting him in the hood.

In fact, it could well have gone differently with Trump subbing for Romney.

 

[ivwshane]

Mr. Harvard Law who just happens to have a skin condition is not really the sort they're bigoted against.

A true racist doesn't vote for a minority no matter what their schooling is, especially when that minority is running against a purebred.

 

[agent00f]

A true racist doesn't vote for a minority no matter what their schooling is, especially when that minority is running against a purebred.

I appended to my post, and already agreed they're not true scotmans, but still scotsmen to a significant degree far as indigenous looking mexicans or those of similar standing are concerned.

To be clear, these are people who don't give a shit Trump calls latino women Ms Housekeeping because they've done it themselves.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Unless you're willing to accept an answer along the lines of "a miracle happens", prepare to be disappointed.

The problem with that kind of answer should have been made obvious on Election Day. They vote.

These people don't live in some sort of time bubble waiting for answers from their elite and educated benefactors, they worked out one for themselves. It is expressed via disdain towards illegal immigrants, but the jest of their plan is increase the value of blue collar work that has to be done in America and can't be shipped overseas.

Has anyone based their national campaign plank on scorning minorities in recent memory?

Does the 88 election count? GOP campaign strategist Lee Atwater for 41- “By the time we’re finished, they’re going to wonder whether Willie Horton is Dukakis’ running mate.”

 

[ivwshane]

I appended to my post, and already agreed they're not true scotmans, but still scotsmen to a significant degree far as indigenous looking mexicans or those of similar standing are concerned.

We can both agree that they certainly respond to the same whistles as admitted racists do, even if it's subconsciously. The outcome is the same regardless. Its a detail that's important if dems wish to not repeat these results.

 

[agent00f]

The problem with that kind of answer should have been made obvious on Election Day. They vote.

These people don't live in some sort of time bubble waiting for answers from their elite and educated benefactors, they worked out one for themselves. It is expressed via disdain towards illegal immigrants, but the jest of their plan is increase the value of blue collar work that has to be done in America and can't be shipped overseas.

As mentioned their protectionism is just another way of taxing the rest of country for more white welfare a la military industry. I'm not in campaign mode here crafting politically correct replies, I was replying to a question of what actual solution there was, ostensibly through legit growth, not wealth redistribution.

Does the 88 election count? GOP campaign strategist Lee Atwater for 41- “By the time we’re finished, they’re going to wonder whether Willie Horton is Dukakis’ running mate.”

Maybe if Bush Sr was rallying the troops to build a wall around the urban ghettos, and they cheered every time it got 10ft taller.

We can both agree that they certainly respond to the same whistles as admitted racists do, even if it's subconsciously. The outcome is the same regardless. Its a detail that's important if dems wish to not repeat these results.

I think "ain't got nuthin to do with racism" is another game similar to "both sides equally bad". Remember Trump's GOP opponents got played, too. Part of the problem was Clinton is hardly the orator nor carried herself in a way to turn this issue into teachable moments.

 

[ivwshane]

As mentioned their protectionism is just another way of taxing the rest of country for more white welfare a la military industry. I'm not in campaign mode here crafting politically correct replies, I was replying to a question of what actual solution there was, ostensibly through legit growth, not wealth redistribution.



Maybe if Bush Sr was rallying the troops to build a wall around the urban ghettos, and they cheered every time it got 10ft taller.



I think "ain't got nuthin to do with racism" is another game similar to "both sides equally bad". Remember Trump's GOP opponents got played, too. Part of the problem was Clinton is hardly the orator nor carried herself in a way to turn this issue into teachable moments.

I agree.

Ironically these same people who want to say that racism wasn't a force behind trumps win are also the same people that think all Muslims are terrorists.