Mea culpa

[Starbuck1975]

Yes, low value add working class is being displaced by high value add working class. It's happening, but that's a nice problem to have.

Dude, what are you talking about? Seriously, you know nothing about SV. It's a fantastic time to be an engineer here. Pay and benefits are phenomenal, and working hours are reasonable.

Boom bust is a great thing for the Valley, it's creative destruction at its finest, plus it results in a lot more money for engineers who lock in dirt cheap stock during the bust and can sell it for many times more during the boom.
All you are gonna get by abandoning free trade are higher prices on imported goods and more automation, which would be a subsidy for Silicon Valley, manufacturing jobs are never coming back unless government basically gives businesses free money to hire people with.

What do you define as high value working class, and regardless there will always be a need for low skill service industry workers. Its almost feudal in that regard.

I used to do a lot of work in SV so you are hearing the perspective of a tech person observing from the outside. There are many layers to tech so I supposs it all depends on what company. Some of my peers in SC work absolutely grueling hours coupled with a life crushing commute. No thanks. I played that game for almost a decade.

 

[agent00f]

What do you define as high value working class, and regardless there will always be a need for low skill service industry workers. Its almost feudal in that regard.

I used to do a lot of work in SV so you are hearing the perspective of a tech person observing from the outside. There are many layers to tech so I supposs it all depends on what company. Some of my peers in SC work absolutely grueling hours coupled with a life crushing commute. No thanks. I played that game for almost a decade.

The difference is that SV still creates something of value that people are willing to pay american wages for. In contrast there's no talent of the sort in the rust belt.

 

[zinfamous]

The difference is that SV still creates something of value that people are willing to pay american wages for. In contrast there's no talent of the sort in the rust belt.

So, what is the solution for rust belt people that still have 30+ years of life ahead of them, with families to take care of, that absolutely are not going to be part of this glorious technological revolution that SV with their wonderful wages and utopian dreams promises for everyone?

 

[Perknose]

So, what is the solution for rust belt people that still have 30+ years of life ahead of them, with families to take care of, that absolutely are not going to be part of this glorious technological revolution that SV with their wonderful wages and utopian dreams promises for everyone?

Socialism.

Specifically, Capitalism but with a Socialist face . . . you know, like those 'Ur a peeing' countries enjoy.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The company for whom I work is currently building a manufacturing facility in Texas to manufacture spare parts for machinery that is located in the US. CNC lathes and mills are being installed and will be operated by qualified machinist

 

[zinfamous]

Socialism.

Specifically, Capitalism but with a Socialist face . . . you know, like those 'Ur a peeing' countries enjoy.

hehe. I agree that there is a solution there, somewhere, and probably the only one, but it strikes me that while those folks have mostly agreed to those solutions for years now, it doesn't seem to be working for them. I doubt they've given up or are completely desperate, just willing to try something out. Make no mistake that they are, by and large, the victims of pure capitalism (I've seen others here say that the only solution for these people is "more capitalism," which is hilarious) and they know it. This is why they've supported regulations on industry and social programs designed and promised to give them more of a fair shake...but it doesn't seem to have worked for them in the end.

I do believe that Obama running again this term would have won these guys back (reminding them that he bailed out the auto industry, among other ideas) and crushed Drump in the face of the Orange One's empty promises...but I wonder if new democratic solutions would have actually helped, or been more of the same. These people have been seeing what the rest of us have seeing: Obama spending more and more time visiting SV and sapping contributions from that sector for programs more inline with funneling talent into that west coast industry (HB1 VISAs) and tax breaks, with the promise of "grand new, tech-inspired ideas to fix the plight of the working class!"

This wasn't the Obama of 2008, whose vision was more akin to jobs now, not the Bill&Hillary grand schemes to promote development in the advanced sectors with the potential side effect of aiding struggling communities.

But there in lies the problem: what kind of jobs can and will be around for these people asap? I don't see it, tbh.

 

[sdifox]

hehe. I agree that there is a solution there, somewhere, and probably the only one, but it strikes me that while those folks have mostly agreed to those solutions for years now, it doesn't seem to be working for them. I doubt they've given up or are completely desperate, just willing to try something out. Make no mistake that they are, by and large, the victims of pure capitalism (I've seen others here say that the only solution for these people is "more capitalism," which is hilarious) and they know it. This is why they've supported regulations on industry and social programs designed and promised to give them more of a fair shake...but it doesn't seem to have worked for them in the end.

I do believe that Obama running again this term would have won these guys back (reminding them that he bailed out the auto industry, among other ideas) and crushed Drump in the face of the Orange One's empty promises...but I wonder if new democratic solutions would have actually helped, or been more of the same. These people have been seeing what the rest of us have seeing: Obama spending more and more time visiting SV and sapping contributions from that sector for programs more inline with funneling talent into that west coast industry (HB1 VISAs) and tax breaks, with the promise of "grand new, tech-inspired ideas to fix the plight of the working class!"

This wasn't the Obama of 2008, whose vision was more akin to jobs now, not the Bill&Hillary grand schemes to promote development in the advanced sectors with the potential side effect of aiding struggling communities.

But there in lies the problem: what kind of jobs can and will be around for these people asap? I don't see it, tbh.

There is a huge need to renew electrical infrastructure. That is what Trump should do if he was serious.

And finally build nuclear reprocessing. Fucking China is building one. Yes, I know there is protest, but since it is China, that won't last.

 

[disappoint]

It's nice that a few are starting to question dogma. The mind is apparently designed to resist change or introspection, perhaps as an aid to forming cohesive tribes or resistance to being overwhelmed by complex thought when hunting and gathering were priorities.

In any case a few are thinking, and that's always a good thing in a society as complex as ours.

*whispers* ...and here we can observe the intelligent design believer in his natural habitat also known as the echo chamber of misinformation. If we remain quiet and undetected we may observe it's mating ritual also known as mental masturbation, whereby it attempts to attract a mate by attempting to sound smarter than the other homonids...

Just busting your gonads, I have no idea if you meant to post that you believe in intelligent design. If you don't believe in I.D. then a better way to phrase that would be "The mind apparently resists change or introspection,..."

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

*whispers* ...and here we can observe the intelligent design believer in his natural habitat also known as the echo chamber of misinformation. If we remain quiet and undetected we may observe it's mating ritual also known as mental masturbation, whereby it attempts to attract a mate by attempting to sound smarter than the other homonids...

Just busting your gonads, I have no idea if you meant to post that you believe in intelligent design. If you don't believe in I.D. then a better way to phrase that would be "The mind apparently resists change or introspection,..."

Heh, makes no difference to me. When someone says "Cheetahs are built for speed" I don't assume they mean they were engineered by an F1 team.

But just maybe???

 

[disappoint]

Heh, makes no difference to me. When someone says "Cheetahs are built for speed" I don't assume they mean they were engineered by an F1 team.

But just maybe???

Well you can build your muscles up by working them out, as can a cheetah, but we have no evidence that the human mind was designed by anyone. Or you can say evolution caused the cheetah to be built for speed. It would be entirely different to say cheetahs were designed for speed. That implies a designer.

 

[zinfamous]

*whispers* ...and here we can observe the intelligent design believer in his natural habitat also known as the echo chamber of misinformation. If we remain quiet and undetected we may observe it's mating ritual also known as mental masturbation, whereby it attempts to attract a mate by attempting to sound smarter than the other homonids...

Just busting your gonads, I have no idea if you meant to post that you believe in intelligent design. If you don't believe in I.D. then a better way to phrase that would be "The mind apparently resists change or introspection,..."

eh, I get it. I find it difficult to use that "designed" expression when talking about natural processes, but it is really quite common within biology/evolution circles. The interpretation is "designed by nature--in the way that nature designs things"

When constructing arguments here in AT, I tend to avoid that common phrasing because, as you point out, there are a significant number in this crowd that would interpret "design" differently.

 

[Jaskalas]

is apparently designed​

In other words, "the way it is". No need to be "grammar nazis" if it's auxiliary to the point being made.
Was it a trigger, do we need safe spaces here?

But there in lies the problem: what kind of jobs can and will be around for these people asap? I don't see it, tbh.

I could argue further stimulus and infrastructure jobs... but those don't last, and are largely located in or around cities.
They'd have to at least commute if not move. Doesn't seem like a solution to the dilapidated rurality.

Socialism.

Specifically, Capitalism but with a Socialist face . . . you know, like those 'Ur a peeing' countries enjoy.

I look at UBI as Capitalism with a safety net. There'll still be employers paying for employees, additional income the public does not provide, but if we can manage living arrangements that fit within a certain low threshold of individual liquidity and keep people from falling below that poverty line they might enjoy better lives and stability than they do today.

Before we're willing to go that far, would $15/hr minimum wage help them?

 

[buckshot24]

eh, I get it. I find it difficult to use that "designed" expression when talking about natural processes, but it is really quite common within biology/evolution circles. The interpretation is "designed by nature--in the way that nature designs things"

When constructing arguments here in AT, I tend to avoid that common phrasing because, as you point out, there are a significant number in this crowd that would interpret "design" differently.

Much more reasonable to believe genetic copying errors did it. amirite?

 

[zinfamous]

whelp, this was an awesome thread until buckshat released his bowels in here.

And yes: it is, dumbshit. That is how nature works. We will not be dragged down to your level of uninformed lunacy here. Kindly go take your bronze-aged knowledge base into some other thread where children are serving each other mud pies.

seriously: no one can discuss anything of value when your start with this.

 

[agent00f]

So, what is the solution for rust belt people that still have 30+ years of life ahead of them, with families to take care of, that absolutely are not going to be part of this glorious technological revolution that SV with their wonderful wages and utopian dreams promises for everyone?

Apparently the current solution is leeching off relations who won't get an estrangement nor bring it up or even speak harshly. Seems to work so why not keep going, maybe those cuck bashing alphas have a point, perhaps even elect a military dictator ie job creator while they're at it. Frankly that'll continue until liberals get over their virtue and remind everyone that elections do have consequences.

As to what they can do for themselves, I think that boat sailed long ago. If you look at the recent history of economic development, the consistent success stories all involved meticulous planning where each phrase creates a foundation for the next on top, eg textile->machinery->electronics->services, etc, and the inputs/outputs plus transitions are all rather tightly integrated. Basically the gubmint orchestrators create & direct the entire ecosystem. That's what they're competing against internationally, and whereas we used to have a big head start, these clowns will be trying to come from behind, plus they don't exactly have the brain trust (nor listen to one anyway) nor skillset.

That's why the best they're hoping for is protectionism, ie just another form of making everyone else here pay for their mistakes, and they just elected a money grubbing right wing opportunitist. El Oh El.

 

[nakedfrog]

Well spoken, OP. I was away from this forum for a few years, and had fuzzy recollections of you being of a different political persuasion than you generally express these days. Not everyone has the capacity to take an introspective look and examine their beliefs in the way you have.

 

[agent00f]

OP is one of the good ones.

 

[zinfamous]

Apparently the current solution is leeching off relations who won't get an estrangement nor bring it up or even speak harshly. Seems to work so why not keep going, maybe those brilliant gentleman bashing alphas have a point, perhaps even elect a military dictator ie job creator while they're at it. Frankly that'll continue until liberals get over their virtue and remind everyone that elections do have consequences.

As to what they can do for themselves, I think that boat sailed long ago. If you look at the recent history of economic development, the consistent success stories all involved meticulous planning where each phrase creates a foundation for the next on top, eg textile->machinery->electronics->services, etc, and the inputs/outputs plus transitions are all rather tightly integrated. Basically the gubmint orchestrators create & direct the entire ecosystem. That's what they're competing against internationally, and whereas we used to have a big head start, these clowns will be trying to come from behind, plus they don't exactly have the brain trust (nor listen to one anyway) nor skillset.

That's why the best they're hoping for is protectionism, ie just another form of making everyone else here pay for their mistakes, and they just elected a money grubbing right wing opportunitist. El Oh El.

And what you said, about your misunderstanding of these people, is exactly why Hillary lost their vote.

Again--platitudes about how they are terrible people and deserve everything that happened to them and simply don't understand how to look out for their best interests. Sorry, but "learn to be better, like me!" Is not a solution. It's not a solution for anyone.

It's like buckshat showing up at your door, trying to convince you that his life is so much better, his derpy town is great and wonderful and people there are so happy, and that you could do so much better than whatever it is you are doing by uprooting, re-educating yourself and moving on to some completely different sector and knowledge base that makes no sense to you (gl doing that at 45 or 50). I mean, would you believe that asshole? I know I wouldn't.

So, when people mention that these same core democratic ideas about what to do with these communities simply aren't working for them--not that they aren't resonating; they aren't working--you suggest trying the same ideas, with a touch of how horrible these people are...for effect?

And you wonder why democrats lost these voters.

 

[agent00f]

And what you said, about your misunderstanding of these people, is exactly why Hillary lost their vote.

Again--platitudes about how they are terrible people and deserve everything that happened to them and simply don't understand how to look out for their best interests. Sorry, but "learn to be better, like me!" Is not a solution. It's not a solution for anyone.

It's like buckshat showing up at your door, trying to convince you that his life is so much better, his derpy town is great and wonderful and people there are so happy, and that you could do so much better than whatever it is you are doing by uprooting, re-educating yourself and moving on to some completely different sector and knowledge base that makes no sense to you (gl doing that at 45 or 50). I mean, would you believe that asshole? I know I wouldn't.

So, when people mention that these same core democratic ideas about what to do with these communities simply aren't working for them--not that they aren't resonating; they aren't working--you suggest trying the same ideas, with a touch of how horrible these people are...for effect?

And you wonder why democrats lost these voters.

The problem with this equivalency argument is that reality discerns between someone like buckshat and I. Generally speaking I would agree that the democrats can handle their PR better, like by hiring a spokesperson with some charm & charisma instead. But you asked what I thought about their actual situation, and being a fairly honest and straightforward person I told it like it is.

The rust belt is where china was some years ago, where korea was some more years ago, and where japan was even further back. Our country has some fabulous built-in advantages like massive natural sources which helps maintain inertia, but the reality is those areas have near run out of steam. So you're basically asking what we can do for them against better organized competitors who'll work themselves to the bone for less, and don't think of edumation as some kind of libtard conspiracy (in fact even their kids study themselves to the bone). Unless you're willing to accept an answer along the lines of "a miracle happens", prepare to be disappointed.

 

[ivwshane]

And what you said, about your misunderstanding of these people, is exactly why Hillary lost their vote.

Again--platitudes about how they are terrible people and deserve everything that happened to them and simply don't understand how to look out for their best interests. Sorry, but "learn to be better, like me!" Is not a solution. It's not a solution for anyone.

It's like buckshat showing up at your door, trying to convince you that his life is so much better, his derpy town is great and wonderful and people there are so happy, and that you could do so much better than whatever it is you are doing by uprooting, re-educating yourself and moving on to some completely different sector and knowledge base that makes no sense to you (gl doing that at 45 or 50). I mean, would you believe that asshole? I know I wouldn't.

So, when people mention that these same core democratic ideas about what to do with these communities simply aren't working for them--not that they aren't resonating; they aren't working--you suggest trying the same ideas, with a touch of how horrible these people are...for effect?

And you wonder why democrats lost these voters.

The only problem with this is that it's complete bullshit. Hillary won out with voters with incomes less than $50. So, sorry, I don't buy the bullshit that this election was about the poor white man.

https://www.statista.com/statistics...e-exit-polls-of-the-2016-elections-by-income/

Hillary lost because dems didn't show up in areas she needed, period, end of story, game, set, match.


Just to try and put this "trump supporters are not racist", to bed so let me say this: a lot of trump supporters are racist, they aren't the type of racists that shout, "white power" when they pass each other by. They aren't the type of racists that email each other Obama-watermelon memes either. No, these are the sort of people who are simply race ignorant. These are the sort of people who grew up in all white towns who's interaction with minorities is extremely limited and who's pre conceived notions of minorities mirrors common stereotypes. These people simply aren't aware of the dog whistles trump used or even why minorities would be offended by anything trump said. They are race ignorant.

 

[agent00f]

The only problem with this is that it's complete bullshit. Hillary won out with voters with incomes less than $50. So, sorry, I don't buy the bullshit that this election was about the poor white man.

https://www.statista.com/statistics...e-exit-polls-of-the-2016-elections-by-income/

Hillary lost because dems didn't show up in areas she needed, period, end of story, game, set, match.


Just to try and put this "trump supporters are not racist", to bed so let me say this: a lot of trump supporters are racist, they aren't the type of racists that shout, "white power" when they pass each other by. They aren't the type of racists that email each other Obama-watermelon memes either. No, these are the sort of people who are simply race ignorant. These are the sort of people who grew up in all white towns who's interaction with minorities is extremely limited and who's pre conceived notions of minorities mirrors common stereotypes. These people simply aren't aware of the dog whistles trump used or even why minorities would be offended by anything trump said. They are race ignorant.

Actually outside of a few of the really stupid, I think most do know what that dog whistle sounds like. They aren't Obama-watermelon jokes per se crowd, but do know why they're not supposed to find it funny and they absolutely resent it. Of course they're not going to admit to this with refreshing honesty, and to be fair that is the liberal media/educators' fault.

I think a critical point that I was going to start a thread about but haven't found the motivation is They're Not as dumb as they look. They use the tools available to them to win which includes disinformation in a way that counteracts the liberal strategy. See, it's no surprise that people who're creators need to get the facts & details right or else whatever they're building falls apart. When your role is instead the muscle to hoist the bricks it's a natural inclination to follow authority and worship strength. Facts & figures are simply low in their stack rank priorities. So whereas the designers believe it's a cardinal sin to get things wrong, the latter who're more used to forcing it anyway don't really care. That's why they keep repeating "dumb" crap even when it's undeniably wrong, because it's their job to do so, just as it might be the job of some libtard to keep pointing out the error.

They know it's wrong, ie a lie, whatever you wanna call it, they just don't care cus that aint their job.


---
Also just fyi, I do agree they're "race-ignorant" in the sense that they largely don't live in integrated communities, which is why scapegoating minorities is as effective as it is.

 

[ivwshane]

Actually outside of a few of the really stupid, I think most do know what that dog whistle sounds like. They aren't Obama-watermelon jokes per se crowd, but do know why they're not supposed to find it funny and they absolutely resent it. Of course they're not going to admit to this with refreshing honesty, and to be fair that is the liberal media/educators' fault.

I think a critical point that I was going to start a thread about but haven't found the motivation is They're Not as dumb as they look. They use the tools available to them to win which includes disinformation in a way that counteracts the liberal strategy. See, it's no surprise that people who're creators need to get the facts & details right or else whatever they're building falls apart. When your role is instead the muscle to hoist the bricks it's a natural inclination to follow authority and worship strength. Facts & figures are simply low in their stack rank priorities. So whereas the designers believe it's a cardinal sin to get things wrong, the latter who're more used to forcing it anyway don't really care. That's why they keep repeating "dumb" crap even when it's undeniably wrong, because it's their job to do so, just as it might be the job of some libtard to keep pointing out the error.

They know it's wrong, ie a lie, whatever you wanna call it, they just don't care cus that aint their job.


---
Also just fyi, I do agree they're "race-ignorant" in the sense that they largely don't live in integrated communities, which is why scapegoating minorities is as effective as it is.

So the voters who voted for Obama twice and voted for trump are secretly racist?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/obama-trump-counties/

There is no doubt that a good chunk of the GOP base are racist to some degree, the polling shows this and this is why Hillary want wrong about her basket of deplorables comment. However that doesn't describe all of trumps supporters.

 

[agent00f]

So the voters who voted for Obama twice and voted for trump are secretly racist?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/obama-trump-counties/

There is no doubt that a good chunk of the GOP base are racist to some degree, the polling shows this and this is why Hillary want wrong about her basket of deplorables comment. However that doesn't describe all of trumps supporters.

Given how close american elections are (ie nobody really changes their mind), I think it's very significant that Trump pulled off +14% uneducated whites in one cycle.

He had to sacrifice -8 college grad to get that, but it was well worth it the way state/EC lines were drawn. Everybody, include his own party, thought it was misguided to keep going with the macho minority group hating BS after the primaries, but everyone was wrong because these guys delivered him the election in the places that mattered.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Given how close american elections are (ie nobody really changes their mind), I think it's very significant that Trump pulled off +14% uneducated whites in one cycle.

He had to sacrifice -8 college grad to get that, but it was well worth it the way state/EC lines were drawn. Everybody, include his own party, thought it was misguided to keep going with the macho minority group hating BS after the primaries, but everyone was wrong because these guys delivered him the election in the places that mattered.

It was certainly a heck of a lot better directed campaign than I was willing to acknowledge til almost the end. The right guy following the right plan with a well primed general population. I am truly amazed at what a few decades of relentless propaganda can accomplish.

 

[agent00f]

It was certainly a heck of a lot better directed campaign than I was willing to acknowledge til almost the end. The right guy following the right plan with a well primed general population. I am truly amazed at what a few decades of relentless propaganda can accomplish.

I don't think it was so much planned out as much as felt out by Trump. No matter what people think about politics in this country, most politicians do have some self-respect/dignity. So as a certain type of outsider, he was uniquely positioned to ignore that convention and say whatever it takes to rile up a crowd, and there's a certain crowd he has savant level ability to rile. It probably took some experience with reality TV and such to learn the ropes.

So in a sense it was a flukish win in that those people were in the states which turned the tide, but in fairness he used the tools available to him the best he could to get the W. I'm sure most of us have seen enough sports to understand that situation.