McCain vs. Obama

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Vic

No, but I thought he primarily grew up with his grandmother who was a VP at a bank.

Only from the 5th grade on. And we're talking comfortable middle class at best here, not privileged.

McCain's family has old money though. And both his father and grandfather were admirals. During Vietnam, McCain's father was THE 4-star admiral for all of Vietnam.

I thought he was living in Indonesia with his mom & stepfather and then was sent to live with his grandmother. I don't see how he could be living with food stamps and be poor in that period. I would also imagine that a VP at a bank would be upper middle class.

I'm not saying that his upbringing is privileged. Just being compared to John McCain's experiences in Vietnam it is privileged.

 

[Robor]

Sorry DP

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Vic

No, but I thought he primarily grew up with his grandmother who was a VP at a bank.

Only from the 5th grade on. And we're talking comfortable middle class at best here, not privileged.

McCain's family has old money though. And both his father and grandfather were admirals. During Vietnam, McCain's father was THE 4-star admiral for all of Vietnam.

I thought he was living in Indonesia with his mom & stepfather and then was sent to live with his grandmother. I don't see how he could be living with food stamps and be poor in that period. I would also imagine that a VP at a bank would be upper middle class.

I'm not saying that his upbringing is privileged. Just being compared to John McCain's experiences in Vietnam it is privileged.

So you're comparing a child's livelihood to that of a prisoner of war? Got it...

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Vic

No, but I thought he primarily grew up with his grandmother who was a VP at a bank.

Only from the 5th grade on. And we're talking comfortable middle class at best here, not privileged.

McCain's family has old money though. And both his father and grandfather were admirals. During Vietnam, McCain's father was THE 4-star admiral for all of Vietnam.

I thought he was living in Indonesia with his mom & stepfather and then was sent to live with his grandmother. I don't see how he could be living with food stamps and be poor in that period. I would also imagine that a VP at a bank would be upper middle class.

I'm not saying that his upbringing is privileged. Just being compared to John McCain's experiences in Vietnam it is privileged.

I don't buy the "Obama lived on food stamps" bit (although there was a period in his early childhood where his mother struggled), but you said their upbringings (not war records, of which there was no war for Obama to fight in), and I'm saying compared to McCain's it was not. I suggest you study McCain's upbringing as much as you have studied Obama's. He might have been a military brat, but he was a privileged military brat.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Vic

No, but I thought he primarily grew up with his grandmother who was a VP at a bank.

Only from the 5th grade on. And we're talking comfortable middle class at best here, not privileged.

McCain's family has old money though. And both his father and grandfather were admirals. During Vietnam, McCain's father was THE 4-star admiral for all of Vietnam.

I thought he was living in Indonesia with his mom & stepfather and then was sent to live with his grandmother. I don't see how he could be living with food stamps and be poor in that period. I would also imagine that a VP at a bank would be upper middle class.

I'm not saying that his upbringing is privileged. Just being compared to John McCain's experiences in Vietnam it is privileged.

So you're comparing a child's livelihood to that of a prisoner of war? Got it...

No, their lives to this point.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Vic

I don't buy the "Obama lived on food stamps" bit (although there was a period in his early childhood where his mother struggled), but you said their upbringings (not war records, of which there was no war for Obama to fight in), and I'm saying compared to McCain's it was not. I suggest you study McCain's upbringing as much as you have studied Obama's. He might have been a military brat, but he was a privileged military brat.

Sorry, I meant their lives until their political careers. I think that McCain's can bring a lot to some voters.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Vic

No, but I thought he primarily grew up with his grandmother who was a VP at a bank.

Only from the 5th grade on. And we're talking comfortable middle class at best here, not privileged.

McCain's family has old money though. And both his father and grandfather were admirals. During Vietnam, McCain's father was THE 4-star admiral for all of Vietnam.

I thought he was living in Indonesia with his mom & stepfather and then was sent to live with his grandmother. I don't see how he could be living with food stamps and be poor in that period. I would also imagine that a VP at a bank would be upper middle class.

I'm not saying that his upbringing is privileged. Just being compared to John McCain's experiences in Vietnam it is privileged.

So you're comparing a child's livelihood to that of a prisoner of war? Got it...

No, their lives to this point.

Which point? Now or when McCain was a POW? If it's the former my last post still stands. If it's the latter then you're comparing a man with a modest income with one who is rich, Obama and McCain, respectifully.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Dari

Which point? Now or when McCain was a POW? If it's the former my last post still stands. If it's the latter then you're comparing a man with a modest income with one who is rich, Obama and McCain, respectifully.

Barack Obama's tax returns in 2007 showed a household income of $4.2 million. McCain's was $405k.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: OrByte
It didn't work for HRC.

This sentence will need to be avoided in all future posts. McCain/Obama is not a fight for the democratic nomination and what worked or did not work for HRC may or may not work for McCain, but the two are completely unrelated as they are focusing now upon entire states, not just specific parties within a state.

 

[Lemon law]

All this entire thread has been concerned with whom will swift boat who. But when it comes down to a race of ideas and issues, only two things are certain. If Iraq flares up again or the economy tanks, we can stick a fork in McCain because he will be done.

Otherwise, McCain chances do not look good because the American people have a bellyful of GWB&co. and McCain will look like more of the same.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Dari

Which point? Now or when McCain was a POW? If it's the former my last post still stands. If it's the latter then you're comparing a man with a modest income with one who is rich, Obama and McCain, respectifully.

Barack Obama's tax returns in 2007 showed a household income of $4.2 million. McCain's was $405k.

And his wife is worth over $100 million... Who are we kidding here?

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: OrByte
It didn't work for HRC.

This sentence will need to be avoided in all future posts. McCain/Obama is not a fight for the democratic nomination and what worked or did not work for HRC may or may not work for McCain, but the two are completely unrelated as they are focusing now upon entire states, not just specific parties within a state.

actually I disagree.

The verbage will be the same. McCain will ask all the same questions. Obama will provide all the same answers.

The audience will not change. Wrights comments were splashed ALL OVER ALL forms of media for weeks. We have ALL seen it.

The only thing that will change will be the voting audience. And here again, those that have not yet formed an opinion on the subject matter must not have been near a TV, newspaper, or radio the past couple of months.

I dunno I just don't see McCain's group gaining any ground on this particular issue. Will the voting outcome be different? yes it will, because we are talking about a general election.

But I think people's minds have been made up on this issue. I don't think the staying power is there for the general election. I think the danger outweighs the benefits for the McCain campaign. This issue is saturated for the time being...maybe things change further down the road I dunnooo......

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Dari

Which point? Now or when McCain was a POW? If it's the former my last post still stands. If it's the latter then you're comparing a man with a modest income with one who is rich, Obama and McCain, respectifully.

Barack Obama's tax returns in 2007 showed a household income of $4.2 million. McCain's was $405k.

And his wife is worth over $100 million... Who are we kidding here?

You're the one that brought up their income. I don't think that $4.2 million is modest. That's a pretty nice income there.

McCain's wife's income is irrelevant unless you bring that up in a separate issue.

It seems to me that the persona of Obama that many people have in their minds is of some poor, struggling individual. I'm sure that he has advanced that idea to gain some voters. That must be why you're thinking that $4.2 million is modest.

But for me, he is an educated and intelligent man. That's what appeals to me. Not some sort of novelty of a poor minority rising through to become president.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Dari

Which point? Now or when McCain was a POW? If it's the former my last post still stands. If it's the latter then you're comparing a man with a modest income with one who is rich, Obama and McCain, respectifully.

Barack Obama's tax returns in 2007 showed a household income of $4.2 million. McCain's was $405k.

And his wife is worth over $100 million... Who are we kidding here?

and what does it matter anyway they both are earning wayyy above all of our payscales.

 

[glutenberg]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

No, but I thought he primarily grew up with his grandmother who was a VP at a bank.

Bank VPs do not make that much money. They're generally solidly middle class and possibly upper middle. Each bank has multiple VPs and it's not a rank that's extremely rare. One of my uncles was a VP for Union Bank and was promoted up and he's still middle class in the income range.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Dari

Which point? Now or when McCain was a POW? If it's the former my last post still stands. If it's the latter then you're comparing a man with a modest income with one who is rich, Obama and McCain, respectifully.

Barack Obama's tax returns in 2007 showed a household income of $4.2 million. McCain's was $405k.

Check their net worth and get back to me.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Dari

Which point? Now or when McCain was a POW? If it's the former my last post still stands. If it's the latter then you're comparing a man with a modest income with one who is rich, Obama and McCain, respectifully.

Barack Obama's tax returns in 2007 showed a household income of $4.2 million. McCain's was $405k.

And his wife is worth over $100 million... Who are we kidding here?

and what does it matter anyway they both are earning wayyy above all of our payscales.

It matters when someone richer than you labels you an elitist .

 

[Lemon law]

And for what its worth, Cindy McCain still refuses to release her income tax returns. And shall we ignore that fact that McCain cheated on his first wife while he chased after a rich wife. So much for family values. And then there is the little matter of Cindy's drug addiction. Lots of things will test the famous McCain temper long before October ends.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I think that McCain can gain a lot from opening up his life story a bit more. His service in Vietnam, the whole torture and POW experience, adoption of a Bangladeshi child, etc. Those are things that would appeal to some people. I think that Obama has a privileged upbringing compared to McCain even though I prefer some of Obama's life factors (his education).

It's going to be interesting to see what happens.

I hate to be the one to say this but McCain failed in Vietnam. He was shot down (nothing to be proud of). His honor came from not divulging secrets and refusing to leave alone. Other than that, I see nothing heroic from getting shot out of the sky and getting tortured. It's a sad commentary of modern American life when we celebrate losers.

Obama was raised poor. His mother used food stamps. He himself was even homeless at one time (after coming to NYC). I'm not sure how you call that privilege.

I think how we deal with times of crisis says a lot about our character.

yes, he got shot down... but what did he do after that? he didn't take advantage of his connections as a get out of jail free card, he didn't crack under pressure, he served as a chaplain to his fellow prisoners, took risks to get one of his fellow soldiers broken arms so that it would repair properly after the Vietnamese purposefully set it wrong, etc.

 

[Lemon law]

AS Loki points out---I think how we deal with times of crisis says a lot about our character.

yes, he got shot down... but what did he do after that? he didn't take advantage of his connections as a get out of jail free card, he didn't crack under pressure, he served as a chaplain to his fellow prisoners, took risks to get one of his fellow soldiers broken arms so that it would repair properly after the Vietnamese purposefully set it wrong, etc.

Yet when it came to John Kerry, by all accounts a greater war hero, he too got swift boated. And a GWB who almost certainly gamed the reserve system ended up looking better than Kerry??????

The implied delusion is that the republirats will always get the best side of the swift boat argument. After all, McCain is a poster child for past swift boating and it did not come from the dem side.

 

[nageov3t]

it wasn't ok when the republicans did it to Kerry, and it won't be ok if the democrats do it to McCain.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: glutenberg

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

No, but I thought he primarily grew up with his grandmother who was a VP at a bank.

Bank VPs do not make that much money. They're generally solidly middle class and possibly upper middle. Each bank has multiple VPs and it's not a rank that's extremely rare. One of my uncles was a VP for Union Bank and was promoted up and he's still middle class in the income range.

Yep. This is a common confusion about bankers. A lot of people think that bankers all make mad money and work lax hours, and it's not the whole picture. If you're successful at selling in banking and lending, or at managing salespeople in banking, then yes, you can make good money, because you're making money for the bank and will get a cut of that.
But if you're managing operations, accounting, or other back-of-house positions that don't directly provide the bank with income, then your income is going to comparable to similar positions in other fields.
So if his grandma was VP of HR at the bank, then the fact that she worked at a bank doesn't mean she'd make any extra money than if she was the same thing somewhere else. And as many banks are notoriously tight-fisted, she might even have made less.

And uh... I work in banking.

 

[sportage]

People wonder and ask if Obama was "really" swayed by Reverend Wright? or as Obama says, just another church go-er there for church.
But the answer and truth might be there in a some way.
Reverend Wright?s personal beliefs might explain why Mrs. Obama said she was ?for the first time proud in America". A comment many took as questionable.
Or Obama's choice to not wear the "flag pin".
Those were small nit picky issues, but might explain why the Obama's do what they do and say what they say. Maybe Reverend Wright did have influence?

Really doesn?t add up to anything, except in trying to get an idea how Obama thinks and where he's coming from. And his ability to be up front with the voters.

As to McCain, I don't buy this "he's another Bush" argument. Or that McCain would be another Bush admin.
McCain was once loved by democrats, remember 2000? And McCain has many times sided with liberal democrats when it was for the good of the people, in his view. McCain is not afraid to be his own man. Not like Bush who is head strong no matter right or wrong.

I actually think McCain just might be able to actually bring the war to a close. I don?t think McCain is the type to ignore something that is not working. McCain knows war, unlike Bush/Cheney. I think McCain would want to close down the war more than anything, and go after those really responsible for the 9/11 attacks.
I doubt McCain would screw around with a war that is going no where. And he would demand people under him to produce, or else...
Not like Bush who gives praise to the jerks he appoints, and refuses to see failure.

McCain "could" just be one of the best presidents we ever had. Especially in working with liberal democrats for a common goal. McCain is not afraid or so head strong that he can not take the right actions regardless of left or right, red or blue.
I think McCain has had enough of that retarded Bush thinking.

The only problem I see with McCain is age. He has, after all, had cancer. And who he selects as his VP would be much more important than who Obama or Hillary picks.

So I could see McCain winning, especially if its against Obama. American's still have real issues with race, thats a fact.
I will support Obama and vote Obama, but McCain would not be another Bush admin.
I think republican's will have more of an issue with McCain than democrats will have.

 

[conehead433]

Originally posted by: sportage
People wonder and ask if Obama was "really" swayed by Reverend Wright? or as Obama says, just another church go-er there for church.
But the answer and truth might be there in a some way.
Reverend Wright?s personal beliefs might explain why Mrs. Obama said she was ?for the first time proud in America". A comment many took as questionable.
Or Obama's choice to not wear the "flag pin".
Those were small nit picky issues, but might explain why the Obama's do what they do and say what they say. Maybe Reverend Wright did have influence?

Really doesn?t add up to anything, except in trying to get an idea how Obama thinks and where he's coming from. And his ability to be up front with the voters.

As to McCain, I don't buy this "he's another Bush" argument. Or that McCain would be another Bush admin.
McCain was once loved by democrats, remember 2000? And McCain has many times sided with liberal democrats when it was for the good of the people, in his view. McCain is not afraid to be his own man. Not like Bush who is head strong no matter right or wrong.

I actually think McCain just might be able to actually bring the war to a close. I don?t think McCain is the type to ignore something that is not working. McCain knows war, unlike Bush/Cheney. I think McCain would want to close down the war more than anything, and go after those really responsible for the 9/11 attacks.
I doubt McCain would screw around with a war that is going no where. And he would demand people under him to produce, or else...
Not like Bush who gives praise to the jerks he appoints, and refuses to see failure.

McCain "could" just be one of the best presidents we ever had. Especially in working with liberal democrats for a common goal. McCain is not afraid or so head strong that he can not take the right actions regardless of left or right, red or blue.
I think McCain has had enough of that retarded Bush thinking.

The only problem I see with McCain is age. He has, after all, had cancer. And who he selects as his VP would be much more important than who Obama or Hillary picks.

So I could see McCain winning, especially if its against Obama. American's still have real issues with race, thats a fact.
I will support Obama and vote Obama, but McCain would not be another Bush admin.
I think republican's will have more of an issue with McCain than democrats will have.

If McCain thought anything like what you propose he would be a good President. Unfortunately you're full of shit.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: loki8481
it wasn't ok when the republicans did it to Kerry, and it won't be ok if the democrats do it to McCain.

I agree with this 100%. I hope that Obama will continue to try to stay on the higher road of the tar pit that is politics. He did well enough against Hillary that he had his toe dipped in but didn't dive in.

Now...the surrogates? That is a whole other story and sadly, I firmly believe that there are going to be some 527s that go full force after McCain.