McCain "Flip Flopping" on lots of stuff...

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: Dari

Embolden the terrorists? They're already embolden. Victory has already been declared. We won. It's over. There is no point in trying to reverse the inevitable. By that I mean we handed over Iraq to Iran as best we could. There is no denying that. Al Qaeda will always have residual support in the Sunni heartland and Iraq will always be fragmented. The smarted thing to do now would be to get some serious help from Iran and other neighbors in fixing this problem. That does not imply "running away". Bush and McCain want to do it on American terms just like Vietnam, but things don't always end up that way. How much blood and treasure do we have to lose for people like you to realize that you're not going to get what you want? The only thing to finish in Iraq is our departure and we need to do it by thinking of smarter ways to deal with saving face; our energy requirements and energy security.

You know, men that are so sensitive about their perception have already shown all their cards.

I'm pretty sure that if we pulled out, the insurgents and terrorists would be literally dancing in the streets and declare a total victory. This would increase recruiting and improve their morale tremendously, as well as their standing among the general populations of the middle east, regardless of how emboldened they already are.

And help from Iraq's neighbors? Yeah, because Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia, 3 of the largest sponsors of terrorism and hatred of the US, are definitely interested in a stable democratic Iraq. :roll: Especially when Iran has obviously been attempting to destabilize Iraq in direct response to our presence, which we have called them out on publicly. Media attention notwithstanding, as this is largely in the field of covert ops I imagine that plenty of "negotiations" are going on behind the scenes with regard to Iranian involvement.

On that note, US forces are the only thing keeping Iraq stable at the moment. The Iraqi forces are getting there, but they're far from ready to take over security for the entire nation. Leaving now would almost guarantee a very bloody civil war.

As for declaring Victory, we've already established that Bush is a dumbass. We're getting there, but I certainly wouldn't cry "Victory" just yet.

As for the comparison to Vietnam, *sigh*.
1. We are not facing a highly organized and massive enemy.
2. Jungle vs Desert (This makes a HUGE difference)
2a. The terrorists/insurgents don't have a tunnel network, which is one of the few reason the Vietcong were able to survive.
3. Our loses are nowhere near to what we suffered in Vietnam
4. As with Vietnam, we are inflicting far more casualties upon the enemy then they can ever hope to inflict upon us. Combine this with the fact that we occupy the entire nation (as opposed to fighting a war over it), which denies the enemy the propaganda necessary to call up unlimited recruits (ala Vietnam). The reality of "engaging American forces is almost always suicide" is IMO beginning to sink in to would-be insurgents.

And like you said, yes we want to do this on American terms. It's an American fuckup. Just because most of the the world disagrees doesn't mean that we shouldn't do what we think is right. Obama's the one that panders to world opinion. Besides, who's going to help us in Iraq? The UN? Lol. The only other country potentially willing to commit a serious amount of forces is Britain, and they've already pulled out of Basra.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: Dari

Embolden the terrorists? They're already embolden. Victory has already been declared. We won. It's over. There is no point in trying to reverse the inevitable. By that I mean we handed over Iraq to Iran as best we could. There is no denying that. Al Qaeda will always have residual support in the Sunni heartland and Iraq will always be fragmented. The smarted thing to do now would be to get some serious help from Iran and other neighbors in fixing this problem. That does not imply "running away". Bush and McCain want to do it on American terms just like Vietnam, but things don't always end up that way. How much blood and treasure do we have to lose for people like you to realize that you're not going to get what you want? The only thing to finish in Iraq is our departure and we need to do it by thinking of smarter ways to deal with saving face; our energy requirements and energy security.

You know, men that are so sensitive about their perception have already shown all their cards.

I'm pretty sure that if we pulled out, the insurgents and terrorists would be literally dancing in the streets and declare a total victory. This would increase recruiting and improve their morale tremendously, as well as their standing among the general populations of the middle east, regardless of how emboldened they already are.

And help from Iraq's neighbors? Yeah, because Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia, 3 of the largest sponsors of terrorism and hatred of the US, are definitely interested in a stable democratic Iraq. :roll: Especially when Iran has obviously been attempting to destabilize Iraq in direct response to our presence, which we have called them out on publicly. Media attention notwithstanding, as this is largely in the field of covert ops I imagine that plenty of "negotiations" are going on behind the scenes with regard to Iranian involvement.

On that note, US forces are the only thing keeping Iraq stable at the moment. The Iraqi forces are getting there, but they're far from ready to take over security for the entire nation. Leaving now would almost guarantee a very bloody civil war.

As for declaring Victory, we've already established that Bush is a dumbass. We're getting there, but I certainly wouldn't cry "Victory" just yet.

As for the comparison to Vietnam, *sigh*.
1. We are not facing a highly organized and massive enemy.
2. Jungle vs Desert (This makes a HUGE difference)
2a. The terrorists/insurgents don't have a tunnel network, which is one of the few reason the Vietcong were able to survive.
3. Our loses are nowhere near to what we suffered in Vietnam
4. As with Vietnam, we are inflicting far more casualties upon the enemy then they can ever hope to inflict upon us. Combine this with the fact that we occupy the entire nation (as opposed to fighting a war over it), which denies the enemy the propaganda necessary to call up unlimited recruits (ala Vietnam). The reality of "engaging American forces is almost always suicide" is IMO beginning to sink in to would-be insurgents.

And like you said, yes we want to do this on American terms. It's an American fuckup. Just because most of the the world disagrees doesn't mean that we shouldn't do what we think is right. Obama's the one that panders to world opinion. Besides, who's going to help us in Iraq? The UN? Lol. The only other country potentially willing to commit a serious amount of forces is Britain, and they've already pulled out of Basra.

Like it or not but we cannot stay there forever, even if it's our fault. You may also find this hard to believe but the insurgents and terrorists want exactly what you want: staying in Iraq and fighting them. They are a one-dimensional group that feed off of hatred and bloodshed. As long as we are there, it will justify their fight. We are not one-dimensional. There are legitimate governments in the region that we can talk to to assist us. You may have come to a weird conclusion that Iraq is not Vietnam but it is. As soon as we step back, a powerful government will come to power and reduce the violence. It happened in Vietnam at great cost and it'll happen in Iraq just as it has happened in every country that has ever existed in the history of mankind.

You cannot think short-term and play the game Al Qaeda wants you to play. You have to worry long term and how this conflict will affect you. We cannot be stupid enough to let a bunch of rags deplete our treasures and kill our boys all for the sake of a phantom or phyrric victory. Think long-term.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: AnthroAndStargate
I have never posted in P&N before, I don't like getting in flame wars etc.

This is interesting though for people who are either against McCain or trying to look at more (of course if you are for him you will find a way to justify all this away just as Obama supporters would do the same, becuase lets be honest, everyone is always polarized thinking their world view is the correct one).

Anyway that being said, I am shocked at how much McCain has switched positions to tow himself in line with the neo-con GOP agenda. I don't see why he would do that, he is running unopposed in the GOP, he could have gone Neo-Con lite and still won the nomination probably (or split the religous conservative base and lost I guess, so nm).

Anyway here is the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22...1/vp/25465984#25465984

lol


no really, lol

Surprise, another worthless lupi post. It's been non-stop since Hillary lost.

No, that was quit an appropriate response. The only thing missing in this thread was the slingshot wasn't the OP.