Mazda 3 and 6 just keep getting better

[JCH13]

Lower engine power, faster times. They put their engines to work.

Also, no offense to JCH13, but I would never get a MS3 as a daily driver. I've driven one, and the first thing you notice is that insane torque steer when the turbo kicks in.

*shrug* with decent tires I hardly notice torque steer. Even then I only really notice it in 1st and 2nd, gears rarely driven in during a commute. Again, if it's an instant deal breaker for you, oh well, but it's not a big deal at all IRL.

I'm not really getting bent out of shape over it. I just don't see the reason to pick a mazda 6 over say, an accord or camry. If all the cars perform the same in circles, but one is better in a line, pick the one that's better in a line.

I really, really like Mazda over Toyota or Honda. I feel they offer an economy car that feels better than the other two. But, at least with the non-speed Mazdas, they have always been behind in terms of power.

In terms of fuel economy... I've never seen majorly poor economy in higher-powered cars. Drivers make more of a difference than engine type, in my experience.

Um, I think you answered your own question. You also answered it earlier for yourself: the Mazda has much better styling and a better interior. And like you said before, you won't be taking it around a track, so will you really miss that extra horsepower 99% or more of the time?

 

[Aharami]

I just don't see the reason to pick a mazda 6 over say, an accord or camry.

I know you're kinda making the same point as me, but I'll have to disagree with you there. If I was comparing the Mazda 6 against the 4 cylinder accord or camry, i'd pick the mazda 6. Heck, I test drove the accord v6 and ruled it out after one test drive. The accord v6 interior felt far inferior to Mazda's, and even though the accord had nearly 100 more hp, I enjoyed driving the 6 more. Maybe the accord felt very boatish (yes I just made up a word) because it is so cavernous inside compared to the snug fitting mazda.

*shrug* with decent tires I hardly notice torque steer. Even then I only really notice it in 1st and 2nd, gears rarely driven in during a commute. Again, if it's an instant deal breaker for you, oh well, but it's not a big deal at all IRL.

Um, I think you answered your own question. You also answered it earlier for yourself: the Mazda has much better styling and a better interior. And like you said before, you won't be taking it around a track, so will you really miss that extra horsepower 99% or more of the time?

I see you have two mazdas and get why you're getting defensive. I didn't say the 6 didn't drive well. I think it took the curves nicely, but so did the fusion (IMO). The fusion felt slightly more floaty and heavy compared to the 6 but that makes sense since it has a few hundred pounds on the 6.

Like I said, I really like the 6, I just can't justify spending the same amount of money as the fusion titanium which has so much more power and slightly less handling prowess. I might still get the 6 it if I can get a good deal. Or I might get the fusion now and get the mazda 6 diesel in a year...

Now if Mazda let me order a touring model with a sunroof (this will be a family car and a sunroof is a must-have on wife's list), I'd happily spend 25K on a manual mazda 6 touring with sunroof

 

[Eureka]

I know you're kinda making the same point as me, but I'll have to disagree with you there. If I was comparing the Mazda 6 against the 4 cylinder accord or camry, i'd pick the mazda 6. Heck, I test drove the accord v6 and ruled it out after one test drive. The accord v6 interior felt far inferior to Mazda's, and even though the accord had nearly 100 more hp, I enjoyed driving the 6 more. Maybe the accord felt very boatish (yes I just made up a word) because it is so cavernous inside compared to the snug fitting mazda.



I see you have two mazdas and get why you're getting defensive. I didn't say the 6 didn't drive well. I think it took the curves nicely, but so did the fusion (IMO). The fusion felt slightly more floaty and heavy compared to the 6 but that makes sense since it has a few hundred pounds on the 6.

Like I said, I really like the 6. I might still get it if I can get a good deal. Or I might get the fusion now and get the mazda 6 diesel in a year...

The main dealbreaker (for me) in these cars is that I never envision them to be my #1 car. They will always be a DD to a fun car. I drove a 2004 camry for 5 years as my first car, I know how boaty it feels and how unresponsive it is. But feeling aside, it did everything I need it to, and the only gripe I still have with that car is its acceleration, because it was the one thing I couldn't do on the road that any other car could do. It felt like it couldn't handle, but it handled. It felt unresponsive, but once you get used to that you could make it do everything you wanted. But you can't make up for a lack of power. So when it comes to family cars, I try to be as objective as possible. I like mazda, but that alone is not enough to make me want to buy their cars.

I think if we do see a mazdaspeed 6, it will be a very good car all around. On the other hand, I still wish they had a RWD sedan. Those we definitely don't see enough of.

 

[JCH13]

I'm not getting defensive!

:awe:

Seriously though, I'm playing devil's advocate. If the fuel economy, handling, styling, and interior aren't enough outweigh the compromise on power in your mind, then so be it. You might be better off in a V6 pony car of some flavor if you emphasize power over other attributes so heavily.


I will admit that I do get annoyed when people get all critical of torque steer after a test drive or two, when in reality it's only noticeable a small fraction of the time.

 

[Eureka]

I'm not getting defensive!

:awe:

Seriously though, I'm playing devil's advocate. If the fuel economy, handling, styling, and interior aren't enough outweigh the compromise on power in your mind, then so be it. You might be better off in a V6 pony car of some flavor if you emphasize power over other attributes so heavily.


I will admit that I do get annoyed when people get all critical of torque steer after a test drive or two, when in reality it's only noticeable a small fraction of the time.

I want everything... maybe that's why I want a turbo miata. All I need is cash.

I must admit I've only had one real test drive of the MS3. I definitely don't have enough experience with it. But that torque steer was scary (and I was going from 1st to 2nd)!

 

[JCH13]

I want everything... maybe that's why I want a turbo miata. All I need is cash.

I must admit I've only had one real test drive of the MS3. I definitely don't have enough experience with it. But that torque steer was scary (and I was going from 1st to 2nd)!

It doesn't take that much cash to build a turbo Miata. Unless you want a turnkey FM kit, of course. My little 1.6L 1991 Turbo does okay and I bought/built it on a relatively small budget.

My MS3 got a whole lot better when the tires broke in after a few hundred miles, and torque steer basically when away when I up-sized to 225/45-18 tires (like the new generation has).

 

[Eureka]

It doesn't take that much cash to build a turbo Miata. Unless you want a turnkey FM kit, of course. My little 1.6L 1991 Turbo does okay and I bought/built it on a relatively small budget.

My MS3 got a whole lot better when the tires broke in after a few hundred miles, and torque steer basically when away when I up-sized to 225/45-18 tires (like the new generation has).

I have yet to do research on it... I still have other things to fix up on my Miata too. But from what I did read, it sounds expensive. Did you swap out the clutch on yours?

 

[JCH13]

I have yet to do research on it... I still have other things to fix up on my Miata too. But from what I did read, it sounds expensive. Did you swap out the clutch on yours?

Yep, a sprung 6-puck. Would not recommend for a street car, at all.

The previous owner did basically all of the initial leg work installing a turbo. He built it and raced in the GRM challenge for three years, so he did it all for <$2k.

I have since replaced a lot of parts with better pieces and improved alot of things. However, the fact remains that he bought a Miata and turbocharged it for less than 2 grand.

Definitely get other things in order first, nothing worse than de-bugging maintenance items during a build!

 

[Wingznut]

I just don't see the reason to pick a mazda 6 over say, an accord or camry. If all the cars perform the same in circles, but one is better in a line, pick the one that's better in a line.

Because there's so much more to a car than performance numbers.

Got a 2014 Mazda6 Touring for my wife a few months ago, and it truly is a brilliantly engineered car. The structural rigidity is phenomenal, and considering the weight of the car, it's so very impressive. The fit and finish are world class. The materials used in the interior are excellent. It is a very comfortable ride, yet is so very stable and predictable around corners.

I could go on and on about how impressed I am with that car.

 

[npaladin-2000]

Because there's so much more to a car than performance numbers.

Got a 2014 Mazda6 Touring for my wife a few months ago, and it truly is a brilliantly engineered car. The structural rigidity is phenomenal, and considering the weight of the car, it's so very impressive. The fit and finish are world class. The materials used in the interior are excellent. It is a very comfortable ride, yet is so very stable and predictable around corners.

I could go on and on about how impressed I am with that car.

I'm still having trouble with people comparing V6 Camcords with the Mazda6...is that the length Honda and Toyota fans have to go to? :biggrin:

Ok, seriously, the Mazda6 doesn't compete with the V6 variants. It's not meant to. They don't particularly want to either, apparently. When you compare the I4 variants of each model, then you find the Mazda coming out on top. The Accord's running a CVT, good luck trying to call that "sporty" no matter how efficient it is. And the suspension on the I4 Camry was designed by Mister Stay-Puft. Neither one can hold a candle to a properly tuned Mazda. Then again, they aren't meant to. That's not the market Toyota has ever wanted, and Honda gave up on that market to focus on "mainstream" design. A.K.A. snoozeboxes.

That's fine, it seems that most of the non-enthusiast public wants snoozeboxes. Mazda doesn't want their business though. They cater specifically to the driving/car enthusiast, not to the general public. They're a niche manufacturer. Always keep that in mind when making these sort of comparisons. Mazda is also a relatively small car company that will never EVER see the sales numbers of a Toyota or a Chevy.

 

[JimKiler]

I'm still having trouble with people comparing V6 Camcords with the Mazda6...is that the length Honda and Toyota fans have to go to? :biggrin:

Ok, seriously, the Mazda6 doesn't compete with the V6 variants. It's not meant to. They don't particularly want to either, apparently. When you compare the I4 variants of each model, then you find the Mazda coming out on top. The Accord's running a CVT, good luck trying to call that "sporty" no matter how efficient it is. And the suspension on the I4 Camry was designed by Mister Stay-Puft. Neither one can hold a candle to a properly tuned Mazda. Then again, they aren't meant to. That's not the market Toyota has ever wanted, and Honda gave up on that market to focus on "mainstream" design. A.K.A. snoozeboxes.

That's fine, it seems that most of the non-enthusiast public wants snoozeboxes. Mazda doesn't want their business though. They cater specifically to the driving/car enthusiast, not to the general public. They're a niche manufacturer. Always keep that in mind when making these sort of comparisons. Mazda is also a relatively small car company that will never EVER see the sales numbers of a Toyota or a Chevy.

Everytime i read a review of cars with Mazda in the mix, i always read how much they enjoy the Mazda's or it is the most fun to drive. But in the end the Mazda's rarely win. But i always come away from the reviews with a positive attitude since they praise the cars that I never feel like Mazda loses.

 

[npaladin-2000]

Everytime i read a review of cars with Mazda in the mix, i always read how much they enjoy the Mazda's or it is the most fun to drive. But in the end the Mazda's rarely win. But i always come away from the reviews with a positive attitude since they praise the cars that I never feel like Mazda loses.

Yeah, i feel the same way, but I'm Ok with it too. If Mazda really catered to that wide a market segment, they'd probably do so by diluting the formula too much for me to like them anymore.

 

[Eureka]

I'm still having trouble with people comparing V6 Camcords with the Mazda6...is that the length Honda and Toyota fans have to go to? :biggrin:

Ok, seriously, the Mazda6 doesn't compete with the V6 variants. It's not meant to. They don't particularly want to either, apparently. When you compare the I4 variants of each model, then you find the Mazda coming out on top. The Accord's running a CVT, good luck trying to call that "sporty" no matter how efficient it is. And the suspension on the I4 Camry was designed by Mister Stay-Puft. Neither one can hold a candle to a properly tuned Mazda. Then again, they aren't meant to. That's not the market Toyota has ever wanted, and Honda gave up on that market to focus on "mainstream" design. A.K.A. snoozeboxes.

That's fine, it seems that most of the non-enthusiast public wants snoozeboxes. Mazda doesn't want their business though. They cater specifically to the driving/car enthusiast, not to the general public. They're a niche manufacturer. Always keep that in mind when making these sort of comparisons. Mazda is also a relatively small car company that will never EVER see the sales numbers of a Toyota or a Chevy.

See, that's the issue I have with Mazda though. They're niche, but they're not quite niche. Take a look at the Mazda3 and Mazda6 base models. They basically come in the Corolla/Civic and Camry/Accord form factor. FWD sedans. If we compare with the Hondas, both manufacturers have manuals. Mazda has hatches, Honda has coupes.

Sure, the Mazda has a bit sportier feel to it, but that's it. Almost all actual numbers in the end doesn't differentiate it. It drives more solidly, and it has a nicer finish, I'll give it, but those are creature comforts. As a car, it doesn't really do much different from Honda and Toyota. You're complaining about Honda's CVTs, but Mazda has basic slushboxes. A enthusiast with working arms and legs would more likely opt for the manual in either case anyway.

As a niche manufacturer, I wish they focused a lot more on the niche... make it RWD, or stick a rotary in there. If they truly catered to the driving enthusiast, we'd be seeing RWD or AWD options. As it stands, they cater to a "sportier than the average driver but not sporty enough to dedicate a different layout" market. And the new 3s and 6s solidify that even more... you only get one engine option. As an enthusiast, I want my options. Right now the 3 and the 6 are competing with the corolla/civic and camry/accord, and the only difference is that it's a "sportier" model.

And for a sportier model, the Toyota (SE flavors) and Honda variants tend to keep up with it rather well once you get it going. And for a snoozebox, those Camry V6s will outgun almost anything under $40k.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate there's a manufacturer out there who focuses on driver enjoyability more than Honda and Toyota. But they haven't gone all the way either, just basically staying different enough from Toyota and Honda but not actually going to a truly niche market.

 

[Aharami]

I'm still having trouble with people comparing V6 Camcords with the Mazda6...is that the length Honda and Toyota fans have to go to? :biggrin:

Ok, seriously, the Mazda6 doesn't compete with the V6 variants. It's not meant to. They don't particularly want to either, apparently. When you compare the I4 variants of each model, then you find the Mazda coming out on top. The Accord's running a CVT, good luck trying to call that "sporty" no matter how efficient it is. And the suspension on the I4 Camry was designed by Mister Stay-Puft. Neither one can hold a candle to a properly tuned Mazda. Then again, they aren't meant to. That's not the market Toyota has ever wanted, and Honda gave up on that market to focus on "mainstream" design. A.K.A. snoozeboxes.

That's fine, it seems that most of the non-enthusiast public wants snoozeboxes. Mazda doesn't want their business though. They cater specifically to the driving/car enthusiast, not to the general public. They're a niche manufacturer. Always keep that in mind when making these sort of comparisons. Mazda is also a relatively small car company that will never EVER see the sales numbers of a Toyota or a Chevy.

people (like me) are comparing equally priced cars. The Mazda 6 GT costs almost $30K. At that price point, all its competitors have a lot more power. Now in the $25K segment that the middle trim Mazda 6 touring sits squarely in, it wins hands down. But the thing is that you cannot order a Mazda 6 touring with sunroof, whereas you can with the Accord Sport/EX, Camry...whatever trim competes in the mid 20's segment. To get a sunroof in a mazda 6, you have to get the top trim, forcing you to compare the Mazda 6 with v6 or 4 cylinder turbo equipped competitors.

I dont get why the sunroof isnt an option on the touring trim in the Mazda6. I'd much rather buy a M6 touring with sunroof and manual, than get an auto in the GT trim!

 

[npaladin-2000]

See, that's the issue I have with Mazda though. They're niche, but they're not quite niche. Take a look at the Mazda3 and Mazda6 base models. They basically come in the Corolla/Civic and Camry/Accord form factor. FWD sedans. If we compare with the Hondas, both manufacturers have manuals. Mazda has hatches, Honda has coupes.

Umm, hatches and coupes are complete different things you know.

Sure, the Mazda has a bit sportier feel to it, but that's it. Almost all actual numbers in the end doesn't differentiate it. It drives more solidly, and it has a nicer finish, I'll give it, but those are creature comforts. As a car, it doesn't really do much different from Honda and Toyota. You're complaining about Honda's CVTs, but Mazda has basic slushboxes. A enthusiast with working arms and legs would more likely opt for the manual in either case anyway.

Have you driven the SkyActiv-Drive 6-speed automatic? If you had, you'd never ever call it a "slushbox." Ever. There is not a single thing "slushy" about it, the torque converter is a non-factor above 10 MPH, it's all direct-connection from there on, like a DSG. It's also extremely responsive, and does rev-matching. Much better than a CVT, and better than most other slushbox automatics.

As a niche manufacturer, I wish they focused a lot more on the niche... make it RWD, or stick a rotary in there. If they truly catered to the driving enthusiast, we'd be seeing RWD or AWD options. As it stands, they cater to a "sportier than the average driver but not sporty enough to dedicate a different layout" market. And the new 3s and 6s solidify that even more... you only get one engine option. As an enthusiast, I want my options. Right now the 3 and the 6 are competing with the corolla/civic and camry/accord, and the only difference is that it's a "sportier" model.

And for a sportier model, the Toyota (SE flavors) and Honda variants tend to keep up with it rather well once you get it going. And for a snoozebox, those Camry V6s will outgun almost anything under $40k.

They are niche. They aren't quite as niche as BMW, but then again, they cost a lot less don't they? But they aren't for everyone. Clearly some people find numbers on a sheet of paper, and greater horsepower to be worth more than chassis and suspension tuning, an immediate transmission, direct throttle mapping, driver-oriented ergonomics, and responsive, communicative steering. I'm fine with that, but I value those things more than numbers on paper. I learned that the hard way, after buying this Elantra I'm driving based on numbers on paper. I miss my old Mazda3 terribly, and am looking forward to the 2014. The 2013 is just too happy-faced for me though.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate there's a manufacturer out there who focuses on driver enjoyability more than Honda and Toyota. But they haven't gone all the way either, just basically staying different enough from Toyota and Honda but not actually going to a truly niche market.

I suppose that depends on how you define "niche." If you look at it one way, all cars have 4 wheels and an engine, so they're all really the same anyway, they haven't gone "all the way." Where does one draw the line? Drive method? Drivetrain layout? Size? Shape? Or simply a car designed with a specific design philosophy different from the others, with different priorities?

 

[JCH13]

Eureka,

You cannot 'go by the numbers' on driving dynamics. I'm surprised that you would give that serious credence. Where is the spec on steering feel? On chassis balance? On good damping rates? On driver feedback?

Mazda makes the RWD Miata, one of the best sports cars of all time. You own one and seem to routinely ignore this fact. This makes a true sports car available at a very low price.

Until recently Mazda made the RX8, which is exactly as you describe: rotary, RWD, manual, perfect chassis balance, etc. Everything you want in a touring sports car. They stopped making them due to a lack of demand. Clearly Mazda wants to make more and better sports cars, but they (and you) have to be realistic about the actual market. At least they're trying to make fun-to-drive cars at a decent price.

If you really like the V6 Camry so much, buy it. It may be your preference to go with power, but you can't get all grumpy when Mazda, a company 1/10th the size of Toyota, can't make a car that's as fast as a V6 Camry while still having better styling, a better interior, better chassis dynamics, better grip, better brakes and better fuel economy. Again, if you want to choose more power over ALL of the above, go for it, but don't demand the impossible and act upset when you don't get it.

Mazda just COMPLETELY changed all of their available sedan engines a year or two ago, it'll take a few years for a small company to rebuild their engine repertoire. Again, they're a very small car company, relatively speaking.

I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just asking you to be a little reasonable.

Aharami, if you want a sunroof in a lower trim MZ6 have an aftermarket one installed. It's not an insane amount of money or effort.

 

[Aharami]

Aharami, if you want a sunroof in a lower trim MZ6 have an aftermarket one installed. It's not an insane amount of money or effort.

Didn't know this is possible. Have any links or forum posts detailing the process, costs, shops, etc? Very close to pulling the trigger on a fusion titanium, but if this is viable, then I'll opt for a Mazda 6 touring

 

[JCH13]

Didn't know this is possible. Have any links or forum posts detailing the process, costs, shops, etc? Very close to pulling the trigger on a fusion titanium, but if this is viable, then I'll opt for a Mazda 6 touring

I don't, personally. I believe they run $1k-$1.4k installed by a professional, or you can install it yourself if you're ambitious. You could even opt for a non-electronic version with removable glass for less.

http://www.classicsofttrim.com/sunroofs.php

You'd have to get a quote from a local installer though, YMMV.

 

[Kaido]

2014 Mazda3 Sedan: New Gallery with 42 High-Res Photos:

http://www.carscoops.com/2013/07/2014-mazda3-sedan-new-gallery-with-37.html

 

[Kaido]

New Mazda6 with i-Eloop System Returns 40 MPG HWY, But Will Cost You At Least $31,775:

http://www.carscoops.com/2013/07/new-mazda6-with-i-eloop-system-returns.html

 

[Wingznut]

Yeah, i feel the same way, but I'm Ok with it too. If Mazda really catered to that wide a market segment, they'd probably do so by diluting the formula too much for me to like them anymore.

I agree... Mazda is a smaller car company. And if they got bigger, I feel their focus would change and their cars would be less unique.
Being smaller, their focus on how they build cars differs from the Hondas and Toyotas. (Not unlike most other businesses... The smaller ones tend to be more customer oriented.)

The word "niche" has been thrown around, but I don't think that's quite accurate. That kind of implies that their intentions (as a company) are to only cater to a relatively small number of buyers. And I'm sure they'd rather sell much more volume than they do.

The RX-8 (and other RX's) were certainly niche cars. And yet another example of a car that is so much more impressive than it's 0-60 time. So, while they have offered cars that cater to a very small demographic, I don't believe that's their strategy as a company.

 

[npaladin-2000]

Remember, they only have so much manufacturing capacity. They're adding more, but you can only sell as many cars as you can build.

Expanding beyond a version point is what happened with Honda. They used to be Mazda basically. But in their quest to expand sales they had to expand appeal. That diluted the formula too much for the enthusiast.

Great example, look at the CX-5 and the CR-V. Very different cars with very different appeal that really expresses each company's philosophy, even though they compete in the same market segment. Or the Civic and Mazda3, which is more like the Civic that was, rather than the Civic of today.

 

[Aharami]

2014 Mazda3 Sedan: New Gallery with 42 High-Res Photos:

http://www.carscoops.com/2013/07/2014-mazda3-sedan-new-gallery-with-37.html

Huh? I thought all Mazda6 trims already come with ieloop. All the reviews are going on about how ieloop is a part of Mazda's skyactive tech. Even the Mazda6 booklet I'm looking at now doesn't mention anything about ieloop being only in special trims or an option.

 

[Wingznut]

Huh? I thought all Mazda6 trims already come with ieloop. All the reviews are going on about how ieloop is a part of Mazda's skyactive tech. Even the Mazda6 booklet I'm looking at now doesn't mention anything about ieloop being only in special trims or an option.

No, all trims don't come with it. When we bought our 6 a couple of months ago, ieloop still wasn't available on any trim... Not sure if it's even available yet.

 

[punjabiplaya]

Looks like ieloop is only available on the grand touring (top spec) trim with the advanced package.