Maybe the reason blacks act out negatively is because they were FORCED to come here.

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: KidViciou$

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Proletariat
A lot of cultures didn't even have slaves.

And what the hell do we know about the world. Its all white-biased history anyways.

OOH NO THE INDIANS WROTE THE RIG VEDA WHEN WE BREAKING ROCKS IN CAVES.

THEY MUST BE OUR OFFSPRING!!!

ITS THE ARABS FAULT WE TOOK SLAVES!!

Give me a break. I thought the right (which seems to include you these days) was all about responsibility and accountability. Its funny that the Left has to keep reminding them. When is the right going to start? Only when its convenient. In the present, after we have everyone oppressed. Being historically responsible is too difficult for you I assume.

You are really pushing it on many fronts. Someone who admires Che and Shaheed Bhagat Singh would surely find slavery disgusting. Those two honorable warriors for mankind fought for freedom of the oppressed to the death.

Every culture in history (except possibly the eskimos) has had slaves.

The Indians not only had slaves, they institutionalized the concept of slavery into a permanent religion-based caste system.
I have noticed that your idea historical responsibility involves re-writing it. You probably don't believe that the Aztecs murdered their slaves by the thousands through human sacrifice... or that blacks sold blacks into slavery. That's just "white history," right? :roll:

As for Che being an "honorable warrior for mankind" --- :laugh:
Che was a murderer and a thief.

I love your logic, Prole. As long as we're not talking about white people, 2 wrongs make a right for you every time. Without doublethink, you wouldn't think.

You should read more about India and maybe ask an Indian professor about the caste system. The British took advantage of the caste system and created an Aryan Dravidian divide in India. The lighter skinned caucasian looking Indians were put in positions of power while the rest were kept as laborers.

Also, even the caste system at its worst was not as bad as slavery. The lower castes were still paid to do their work.

Your problem is you look at history through Western eyes and its not totally your fault because that is what we were taught. If you read books from actual indigenous sources (I'm not talking about nationalist sources, but verified ones) you would find that the Gita never mentions a Caste System and the Indian caste system was present in all Indo-European societies including Rome.

As for the Aztecs - I believe the stuff about their sacrifices, but what does it matter, we wiped them off the face of this earth and few of them left make a slave-like living in the mountains. They aren't even an issue anymore.

I understand to accept certain things you would have to give up your current ideology. You can't ever look at your country or your people the same way again. You can't post in OT anymore. But the truth is out there. You live in an isolated nation. Go outside and your fragile reality will be quickly crushed.

as bull$hit as the caste system is, it was not designed to destabilize a group of people, it was setup to create a ceiling of achievement of which they could never exceed

Slavory wasn't set up to destabilize a group of people, but to get cotten cheaply.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Ah, so the job is to give up hatred. Progress is definitely slow on that. It might help a bit to have an insight into hatred. It's so irrational you know, almost as if acquired before the age of reason. That certainly will be a challenge. Trying to solve with language what was inculcated with words before we understood them. What if the very act of thought itself is the problem? What if the answer is in remembering what and how we came to feel this thing called hatred. Imagine the challenge if what we hate is what we are. That's going to be a tough nut to crack. What a picnic. I am what I hate. Swell. Have you any idea how bad that is? I hate the truly disgusting; how about you?

You know I love you, Moonie. 🙂

Nobody said it was going to be easy.


Prole, I think you see Che through rose-colored glasses. Personally, I think Che would be horrified to discover that the greater part of his legacy is honored by rich urban white youth who agonize over the plight of the world's poor while drinking expensive wine in luxurious surroundings.

Why? It is up to the youth to promote positive change, regardless of their familys situation.
Seeing a bit of right-wing envy of the rich here?

Those affluent youth only promote that situation of hypocritical altruism for as long as they live on their trust funds. Once the time comes to collect the inheritence and take over the family business, they become just as bad as their parents were.

And I love that you label me "right wing" when that is no where near the truth. Your problem with me is that you think your ideology is so all-fired sacred that anyone who dares heresy against it must be from the camp of ideological opposites. As though there are only 2 schools of thought in this world! Such dualism might be accepted in religion (and the religiously faithful) but has no place in politics.

Yea Ted Turner grew up to be the same. Bill Gates. All those kids in the 60's who dropped out and protested were the same as their conservative parents? Do you fear them because they fought for change? Do you fear them because they took a risk for others?

Affluent doesn't even necessarily mean they have a 'family business' or 'inheritance'. The article in my sig is referring to Western youth as a whole who are much richer than the 18 year old Peruvian or Cambodian kid.

All these people, the kids, the philanthropists - were people who cared and who gave up a part of their lives to make other peoples lives better. Too bad we don't have people like that anymore. Just a bunch of cynical, nerdish misfits who go to Hot Topic just to be 'rebellious'. They like the image, they don't like the responsibility that goes along with it.

There is a dualism to man, good and bad. Right and wrong. People know whats right but its the rare man who steps up does it.

My friend, Republican and Libertarian leaders will never drum up support outside of the white, rich and conservative. Leftist leaders can rally world support. That is why they are so feared and that is why they are killed.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: KidViciou$
this is NOT just a relative, it's an ENTIRE RACE OF PEOPLE!!!!

and it's not something like judism where it's not that easy to tell if someone is a jew. you KNOW when someone is black just by looking at them

Don't bother - 'it was 100 years ago get over it' is the standard argument against all systemic inequalities. NM that it was within the lifetime of a good number of blacks that they got the right to vote, the right to go to real schools, to sit where they like on the bus... no, it's all ancient history, and couldn't possibly have any bearing on today.

It's true that blacks were mistreated in the past, but this culture of playing the race card over and over is getting old. The truth of the matter is that the black community has some deep rooted cultural problems. When their children have no academic goals and look up to gangster/rappers like 50 cent, that isn't because of inequalities that happened in the past. That is because of bad parenting in the present.

Bill Cosby hit the nail on the head during his speech not too long ago.

Actually, despite the gross inaccuracy of claiming that systemic discrimination is ancient history, it is true that the best thing for an individual black person to do is pretend that this is the case, and make the best of things from there.

This doesn't absolve society at large from responsibility to correct and in some manner make amends for injustices past, and (especially) present. Proper funding for inner city schools would be a good start.

Systemic discrimination?? I would say the exact opposite is taking place in academia. Many universities are begging for black applicants.

'Society at large?' That's a B.S. phrase if I ever heard one. Come on 3Chord, I thought you were smarter than that.

'Proper' funding for inner city schools is what is breeding this negative culture. What do you think happens when you put a bunch of idolizers of gangster/rappers in one place? You get gangs of idolizers of gangster/rappers.

Not too long ago I saw a young black kid walking around wearing a tank top that said "G Unit" on it. "G Unit" is 50 Cent's 'crew.' I shook my head and wondered what kind of future that kid has. The sad thing is that I'm sure his parents were fully aware of this.

Inner city schools (as well as all public schools, but especially inner city ones) should be torn down. I would be happy to drive the bulldozer for free.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Yea Ted Turner grew up to be the same. Bill Gates. All those kids in the 60's who dropped out and protested were the same as their conservative parents? Do you fear them because they fought for change? Do you fear them because they took a risk for others?

Affluent doesn't even necessarily mean they have a 'family business' or 'inheritance'. The article in my sig is referring to Western youth as a whole who are much richer than the 18 year old Peruvian or Cambodian kid.

All these people, the kids, the philanthropists - were people who cared and who gave up a part of their lives to make other peoples lives better. Too bad we don't have people like that anymore. Just a bunch of cynical, nerdish misfits who go to Hot Topic just to be 'rebellious'. They like the image, they don't like the responsibility that goes along with it.

There is a dualism to man, good and bad. Right and wrong. People know whats right but its the rare man who steps up does it.

My friend, Republican and Libertarian leaders will never drum up support outside of the white, rich and conservative. Leftist leaders can rally world support. That is why they are so feared and that is why they are killed.

I agree. The victim mentality of populism is much more powerful than the reality of self-determination and choice. Which is why it is being exploited so. If I were you, I would prepare for the betrayal of your revolution. It is certainty.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Ah, so the job is to give up hatred. Progress is definitely slow on that. It might help a bit to have an insight into hatred. It's so irrational you know, almost as if acquired before the age of reason. That certainly will be a challenge. Trying to solve with language what was inculcated with words before we understood them. What if the very act of thought itself is the problem? What if the answer is in remembering what and how we came to feel this thing called hatred. Imagine the challenge if what we hate is what we are. That's going to be a tough nut to crack. What a picnic. I am what I hate. Swell. Have you any idea how bad that is? I hate the truly disgusting; how about you?

You know I love you, Moonie. 🙂

Nobody said it was going to be easy.


Prole, I think you see Che through rose-colored glasses. Personally, I think Che would be horrified to discover that the greater part of his legacy is honored by rich urban white youth who agonize over the plight of the world's poor while drinking expensive wine in luxurious surroundings.

Why? It is up to the youth to promote positive change, regardless of their familys situation.
Seeing a bit of right-wing envy of the rich here?

Those affluent youth only promote that situation of hypocritical altruism for as long as they live on their trust funds. Once the time comes to collect the inheritence and take over the family business, they become just as bad as their parents were.

And I love that you label me "right wing" when that is no where near the truth. Your problem with me is that you think your ideology is so all-fired sacred that anyone who dares heresy against it must be from the camp of ideological opposites. As though there are only 2 schools of thought in this world! Such dualism might be accepted in religion (and the religiously faithful) but has no place in politics.

I am sure reading about Che has a requirement of a trust fund, quit with the generalzations, you wouldn't want to be black and white thinker would you?

I have read about him for years and I never had a "trust fund" if Prole were joining up to be a officer in bush's war you'd be slobbing his knob....

If these "rich whiteboys" want to care about the poor, and the world they live in instead of this illegal war and what o'lielly and their own racist dads want them to -more power to them.
Their dads and people like them in p&n are plainly assholes, it's smart to me.
Can't help but learn something regardless.

 

[Vic]

Are you kidding? I was against Bush's war when he was still in Afghanistan (and even more so when he went Iraq). And I was against Clinton's war in Bosnia too. A tip to you, Steeplerot: I am nothing that you imagine I am.


editted for glaring unintentional typo

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Vic
Are you kidding? I wasn't against Bush's war when he was still in Afghanistan (and even more so when he went Iraq). And I was against Clinton's war in Bosnia too. A tip to you, Steeplerot: I am nothing that you imagine I am.

Wasn't that a UN Sactioned mission? The bosnia ordeal..

 

[judasmachine]

Look at abuse victims, it can take months or years to get over a couple of instances. It will likely take generations and generations to get over the atrocities committed by the slave trade. Pyschic (for lack of a better term) damage has effects lasting longer than the actual victim's life. It continues on in their children who are only marginally treated better, and so on and so on. Eventually things get better, but the damage is still there. I see it every time I visit some of my relatives in South Dakota and Nebraska.

Murder
Rape
Beatings
Forced Relocation
Atrocious Living Conditions
Constant Degradation

I'm sure the list is much longer

 

[KidViciou$]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: KidViciou$

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Proletariat
A lot of cultures didn't even have slaves.

And what the hell do we know about the world. Its all white-biased history anyways.

OOH NO THE INDIANS WROTE THE RIG VEDA WHEN WE BREAKING ROCKS IN CAVES.

THEY MUST BE OUR OFFSPRING!!!

ITS THE ARABS FAULT WE TOOK SLAVES!!

Give me a break. I thought the right (which seems to include you these days) was all about responsibility and accountability. Its funny that the Left has to keep reminding them. When is the right going to start? Only when its convenient. In the present, after we have everyone oppressed. Being historically responsible is too difficult for you I assume.

You are really pushing it on many fronts. Someone who admires Che and Shaheed Bhagat Singh would surely find slavery disgusting. Those two honorable warriors for mankind fought for freedom of the oppressed to the death.

Every culture in history (except possibly the eskimos) has had slaves.

The Indians not only had slaves, they institutionalized the concept of slavery into a permanent religion-based caste system.
I have noticed that your idea historical responsibility involves re-writing it. You probably don't believe that the Aztecs murdered their slaves by the thousands through human sacrifice... or that blacks sold blacks into slavery. That's just "white history," right? :roll:

As for Che being an "honorable warrior for mankind" --- :laugh:
Che was a murderer and a thief.

I love your logic, Prole. As long as we're not talking about white people, 2 wrongs make a right for you every time. Without doublethink, you wouldn't think.

You should read more about India and maybe ask an Indian professor about the caste system. The British took advantage of the caste system and created an Aryan Dravidian divide in India. The lighter skinned caucasian looking Indians were put in positions of power while the rest were kept as laborers.

Also, even the caste system at its worst was not as bad as slavery. The lower castes were still paid to do their work.

Your problem is you look at history through Western eyes and its not totally your fault because that is what we were taught. If you read books from actual indigenous sources (I'm not talking about nationalist sources, but verified ones) you would find that the Gita never mentions a Caste System and the Indian caste system was present in all Indo-European societies including Rome.

As for the Aztecs - I believe the stuff about their sacrifices, but what does it matter, we wiped them off the face of this earth and few of them left make a slave-like living in the mountains. They aren't even an issue anymore.

I understand to accept certain things you would have to give up your current ideology. You can't ever look at your country or your people the same way again. You can't post in OT anymore. But the truth is out there. You live in an isolated nation. Go outside and your fragile reality will be quickly crushed.

as bull$hit as the caste system is, it was not designed to destabilize a group of people, it was setup to create a ceiling of achievement of which they could never exceed

Slavory wasn't set up to destabilize a group of people, but to get cotten cheaply.

are you crazy??? american slavery is the only slavery i have heard of that was designed to destabilize a group of people. they used to breed their slaves like cattle, and these children would be placed into a perpetual state of slavery. most other forms of slavery were 1 generation slavery where the slaves didn't really have children who would be born into slavery!

remember, it was cheaper to grow your own slaves than to buy new ones at the auction block!

 

[piasabird]

How many black people that you know of were forced to come here? Unless they immigrated they were born of American Parents. Stand up and be a real man!

 

[Sixtyfour]

Re-introduce slavery.

Crime rates would go down.

But those that are more capable and get an education, they should have a chance to live as a free person (if they are willing to obey the law).
Also if they can raise their childer properly, those kids would avoid slavery too.
It would make life much better for the average black man, since they would have something meaningful to do.

ps. im not joking. Blacks need someone to control them with an iron fist.

pps. actual exploiting should not be allowed.

 

[KidViciou$]

Originally posted by: Sixtyfour
Re-introduce slavery.

Crime rates would go down.

But those that are more capable and get an education, they should have a chance to live as a free person (if they are willing to obey the law).
Also if they can raise their childer properly, those kids would avoid slavery too.
It would make life much better for the average black man, since they would have something meaningful to do.

ps. im not joking. Blacks need someone to control them with an iron fist.

pps. actual exploiting should not be allowed.

wow, just wow. why don't you take it one step further and abort all unborn black babies? :shocked:

 

[Sixtyfour]

Originally posted by: KidViciou$
wow, just wow. why don't you take it one step further and abort all unborn black babies? :shocked:

Hey ! Thats really g... i... ! 😉

But seriously, my solution would actually solve some of the problems, but it's not a perfect solution.

And i doubt it will happen.

ps. multicultural societies have never worked, so why those would work now? It's only fuel for neo-nazis, racial discrimination, violence, etc.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Sixtyfour

Originally posted by: KidViciou$
wow, just wow. why don't you take it one step further and abort all unborn black babies? :shocked:

Hey ! Thats really g... i... ! 😉

But seriously, my solution would actually solve some of the problems, but it's not a perfect solution.

And i doubt it will happen.

ps. multicultural societies have never worked, so why those would work now? It's only fuel for neo-nazis, racial discrimination, violence, etc.

Tried that, didn't work and those people lost

Figures there are some wingnut diehards like you out there still though.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Prove the Blacks were forced to come here.....

There was no holocaust and there was never slavery in the United States!!

 

[Steeplerot]

yay! the holocaust deniers and the racists come out, why am I not surprised.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: tec699
I was just reading this thread.

Think about it guys. No other culture was forced to come to America. I had a talk with a black buddy a few weeks ago and he brought this up. Blacks were put into ships like sardines. A great many of them died in those ships and if they were lucky enough to make it here they were all forced into slavery. They had ZERO rights.

No other culture was forced here like they were. You could compare the American Indians as well. The Native Americans were forced out of their homelands and into those god awful reservations. Presently they have the highest rate of alcoholism and diabetes in this country. The unemployment rate is high as well.

I'm not trying to make excuses for why someone would steal and murder but there has to be some correlation between the two.

Very, very, very complex topic. I will not try to find the answers you are looking for. However I am always surprised by the fact that when a racial debate starts, nobody consider a very easy fact. Most of the money around is the results of interests paid over investements, paid over interestspaid over investments, paid over interests.... etc etc...

The black people were deported to this country and eventually found themselves free but abosolutely lacking historical financial resources. This is in my opinion the numebr one reason for the situation you have now.

This of course on top of all the constructivist discourse of self-identification, lack of roots, under-representation in public affairs, education and, well, racism.

 

[Sixtyfour]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
There was no holocaust

:laugh:

I never understand why some people try to deny it (you are joking for sure..).

I also don't understand why only jews are remembered when holocaust is mentioned?
50% of the victims were non jews.

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
yay! the holocaust deniers and the racists come out, why am I not surprised.

It's a crime of some degree to blame a person that he is racist..

And it's not racism to mention that blacks are using "race card" too often, and that whites were discriminated not so long ago, and that whites worked their way out of it (blacks never did, but they should since it's a key to acceptance).

Q. Why "corporate america" is avoiding hiring blacks? (at least some claim it happens).

A#1. They want to sue that corporation if white gets a promotion before the black dude.

A#2. When interviewed, blacks act like they propably don't get the job because they are black (negative attitude makes you look bad).

(answers do not appy to all cases)

 

[Steeplerot]

:roll: I am sure the cops are on the way to bust me for calling a holocaust denier a racist...


Bring back slavery...feh. Looking forward to another civil war huh?

 

[KidViciou$]

no matter what you say about white people being discriminated against, an irish, italian, polish, whatever caucasian was still WAY higher then a black person at the same time, even into the 60's when white people were integrated as one!

there were never any laws setup to keep the irish down, or the italians, or the polish

you guys are comparing cantalopes to watermelons when you compare white racial victims to black racial victims!

 

[maluckey]

KidViciou$ wrote:

what's an acadian???

My relatives,

many of whom today are in Luisiana and are known as Cajuns. Some stayed in Maine. Some of the Godless heathens didn't attend Church the day they rang the bells to round everyone up, so changed their names and lived in the forest until the heat died off.

 

[KidViciou$]

what??? i don't follow what you are saying

 

[KidViciou$]

Originally posted by: Sixtyfour

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
There was no holocaust

:laugh:

I never understand why some people try to deny it (you are joking for sure..).

I also don't understand why only jews are remembered when holocaust is mentioned?
50% of the victims were non jews.

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
yay! the holocaust deniers and the racists come out, why am I not surprised.

It's a crime of some degree to blame a person that he is racist..

And it's not racism to mention that blacks are using "race card" too often, and that whites were discriminated not so long ago, and that whites worked their way out of it (blacks never did, but they should since it's a key to acceptance).

Q. Why "corporate america" is avoiding hiring blacks? (at least some claim it happens).

A#1. They want to sue that corporation if white gets a promotion before the black dude.

A#2. When interviewed, blacks act like they propably don't get the job because they are black (negative attitude makes you look bad).

(answers do not appy to all cases)

just for the record, do you realize that YOU are racist?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

I was talking with a couple of black guys today at lunch and brought up the premise of this thread. They both looked at me seriously for a second, then looked at each other and started cracking up laughing.

-----

Black Guy 1: Is this internet forum mostly white boys?

Me: Yeah, mostly.

Black Guy 1: Why do white boys talk about such stupid sh!t?

Black Guy 2: (Looks at black guy 1) You want to go back to Africa?

Black Guy 1: Hell no!

Black Guy 2: Me neither.

Black Guy 1: Besides that, I bet it's tough finding a good rib or chicken place in Africa. (winks)

Both crack up laughing again.

-----

I got the impression we white boys take this issue far more seriously than some black people do or would.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I was talking with a couple of black guys today at lunch and brought up the premise of this thread. They both looked at me seriously for a second, then looked at each other and started cracking up laughing.

-----

Black Guy 1: Is this internet forum mostly white boys?

Me: Yeah, mostly.

Black Guy 1: Why do white boys talk about such stupid sh!t?

Black Guy 2: (Looks at black guy 1) You want to go back to Africa?

Black Guy 1: Hell no!

Black Guy 2: Me neither.

Black Guy 1: Besides that, I bet it's tough finding a good rib or chicken place in Africa. (winks)

Both crack up laughing again.

-----

I got the impression we white boys take this issue far more seriously than some black people do or would.

Either that or you opened your mouth and spewed your typical rhetoric sometime and they overheard, or they just don't feel comfortable enough around you to open up.

People don't tend to just open up about something that hits close to home like race issues in a public place a workplace I would think doubly so..

They know your name on here is chicken? they may have been making fun of you.

seems to me like they were ribbing you chicken. 😉