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Maybe Malaysia should stop flying planes: 777 crashed in Ukraine

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Possible proof fragmentation detonation.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html#axzz388QQjCsK

b324fdf5-fb31-447b-9cd5-1500d2ecca8b.img


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The first apparent hard evidence that Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was brought down by a surface-to-air missile is emerging from the crash site in eastern Ukraine, after experts confirmed on Monday there were signs of shrapnel damage to the aircraft.

The photograph above, first published by the Financial Times over the weekend, shows a piece of the downed Boeing 777 about a metre square with a gaping hole in the middle, surrounded by smaller holes and apparent burn marks.
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OutHouse said:
lol thats a joke right?
Click to expand...

Check out a few SAM-simulator videos on youtube.
Downing a plane is just a matter of pushing a dozen buttons, and slewing the Radar until you get a lock. Pretty simple stuff.
These things are designed to be used by soldiers after all.
And if your target doesn't do ECM, beaming, ground evasion, etc., but flies on a straight course, it's quite easy to get a lock.

All the buttons are labelled too, so if you can read Russian, it's even easier.
 
Markbnj said:
Except that Europe gets some ridiculous percentage of their natural gas from Putin (from a pipeline that crosses Ukraine if I recall correctly). That's going to make it a little interesting, no?
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Don't worry, Chancellor Schröder made sure that a new pipeline through the Baltic Sea was built, and after he demissioned he's now got a consulting job with Gazprom. Him and Putin were best buddies. Hell, they still are.
 
_Rick_ said:
Check out a few SAM-simulator videos on youtube.
Downing a plane is just a matter of pushing a dozen buttons, and slewing the Radar until you get a lock. Pretty simple stuff.
These things are designed to be used by soldiers after all.
And if your target doesn't do ECM, beaming, ground evasion, etc., but flies on a straight course, it's quite easy to get a lock.

All the buttons are labelled too, so if you can read Russian, it's even easier.
Click to expand...

Yeah, except that it was never the intention to shoot down 777s, the buks are part of a complex network of SAMs designed to close down the airspace and they surely anticipated that Ukraine would be using SAM suppression tactics like anti-radiation missles, ECM, etc. Everything from the placement of the batteries to properly using the radar so you don't get lit up by a SEAD sortie requires expertise. Finally, I'm sure the Russians wanted to minimize the risk downing a civilian aircraft, ironically enough, and they would never trust resistence fighters to not fuck it up. Oops.
 
Markbnj said:
Except that Europe gets some ridiculous percentage of their natural gas from Putin (from a pipeline that crosses Ukraine if I recall correctly). That's going to make it a little interesting, no?
Click to expand...

Yeah, but this is a two way street. Russia relies on its gas sales to basically fund its economy and tax base. It's one thing to play around with the gas going to Ukraine itself, but Western Europe is a whole different matter. Western Europe has reserves that can last through the winter, while if Putin decided to cut gas exports, that would have immediate, big effects on the Russian economy.


_Rick_ said:
Check out a few SAM-simulator videos on youtube.
Downing a plane is just a matter of pushing a dozen buttons, and slewing the Radar until you get a lock. Pretty simple stuff.
These things are designed to be used by soldiers after all.
And if your target doesn't do ECM, beaming, ground evasion, etc., but flies on a straight course, it's quite easy to get a lock.

All the buttons are labelled too, so if you can read Russian, it's even easier.
Click to expand...

The US is saying, point blank, that Russia supplied the missile and at least trained the "separatists" who fired it. Ukraine says that it has evidence that the person who fired the missile is a russian.

Your stupid theory was implausible last week, and it's absolutely ignorant today.
 
_Rick_ said:
Check out a few SAM-simulator videos on youtube.
Downing a plane is just a matter of pushing a dozen buttons, and slewing the Radar until you get a lock. Pretty simple stuff.
These things are designed to be used by soldiers after all.
And if your target doesn't do ECM, beaming, ground evasion, etc., but flies on a straight course, it's quite easy to get a lock.

All the buttons are labelled too, so if you can read Russian, it's even easier.
Click to expand...

If those are so easy, then why does it take 6+ months to train people on them?

There is a lot of prep-work that is needed to get the system ready for what those simulation videos "show" instantaneously.
The simulations videos also will speed up the process. No one wants to spend 30-40 minutes to play a game when the results are for 10 seconds.
 
cabri said:
If those are so easy, then why does it take 6+ months to train people on them?

There is a lot of prep-work that is needed to get the system ready for what those simulation videos "show" instantaneously.
The simulations videos also will speed up the process. No one wants to spend 30-40 minutes to play a game when the results are for 10 seconds.
Click to expand...

Some people need 4+ years to get a degree, some can do it in less than 2 years. They have to dumb the classes down to the least common denominator.
 
Blackjack200 said:
There is no way, no way, Putin put a weapon system like that in the hands of minimally trained operators.
Click to expand...

Who said that they're minimally trained? The "separatist" army is being run by professionals. Russian intelligence officers and "cossack" units are running the rebellion, not a bunch of deserters.

The cossacks aren't directly run by putin. They're actually set up as non-governmental organizations (NGOs), but they are funded by the government and given old military hardware.

Basically, these NGOs take ethnic russians from russia proper and neighboring (former USSR) countries and trains them on how to take over a region. They go in and drum up support from the locals, but the actual officers running operation are all russian trained & equipped.

So, these NGOs apparently got their hands on a couple tanks and BUK AA systems and secreted them across the border in this operation, and the people operating those vehicles were russian trained and organized. They made sure to only use vehicles that are in the Ukrainian arsenal and then had some russian press put out a story about the "rebels" capturing the vehicles, so russia could have deniability.
 
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preslove said:
Yeah, but this is a two way street. Russia relies on its gas sales to basically fund its economy and tax base. It's one thing to play around with the gas going to Ukraine itself, but Western Europe is a whole different matter. Western Europe has reserves that can last through the winter, while if Putin decided to cut gas exports, that would have immediate, big effects on the Russian economy.
Click to expand...

Putin doesn't have any moves economically other than pray that the Chinese would bail him out if things get really bad with the US/EU. I'm skeptical on that one since the Chinese aren't exactly big fans of whipping up separatist fervor but they may take advantage of Russia's weakened position for very favorable deals.
 
preslove said:
Yeah, but this is a two way street. Russia relies on its gas sales to basically fund its economy and tax base. It's one thing to play around with the gas going to Ukraine itself, but Western Europe is a whole different matter. Western Europe has reserves that can last through the winter, while if Putin decided to cut gas exports, that would have immediate, big effects on the Russian economy.
Click to expand...

All true, but if the game is economic chaos the average western leader would last one term (less in parliamentary systems), so I doubt they are eager to play chicken with a guy who can vote himself into office forever. Like I said, interesting.
 
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